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War - What is it Good For?

 
 
LVX23
04:58 / 03.07.03



So I can't help but look around a see a whole lot of warring 'goin on. Ever since we could carry a club and burn things, war has been raging on the planet. Is it waning, or waxing? Is this simply human nature playing out, or a transitional evolutionary stage characterized by dwindling resources and rising populations? Is it possible for humans to evolve past war and, if so, how could this be enabled?

My general feeling is that war is a natural response of overfed egos and underfed stomachs - something that would require a major change in the way we use resources. NanotechAlchemy?

Anyone have any thoughts on characterizing this Daemon?

 
 
Quantum
08:04 / 03.07.03
It's definitely building up a head of steam. Closely flanked by the other horsemen...

I don't think we can evolve past war until we evolve past physical bodies, and possibly not even then. While we have desires, they'll conflict, and conflict leads to war sooner or later.
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
12:58 / 03.07.03
War, in my opinion, is an evolutionary backfire. When we needed to kill things to survive, we delevoped into violet stragegists. Now, we're the dominant specises on the planet, but those violent tendencies haven't gone away. I don't know how we'll every get past it, without all of us becoming enlightened in one unifing instant.
 
 
Adam Shame
13:27 / 08.07.03
Not terribly good at the magic stuff. It is interesting though. So, if I may try my hand, here I go.

War is internal. It is the percieved opposing forces dancing together to make balance. War is a union, an agreement to dismember that which is not necessary anymore. As Kali says to Shiva I'll cut off your head, you cut off mine

While that may seem like a rose-coloured version of war it has a magical significance to me. It is about removing obstacles, which is not always a pretty thing, but if you make it through, you can appreciate the simple fact you are still alive. Nothing tastes better than that!

Certainly we all know that the perception of different sides of war is strictly for the appearance. This is my belief anyway. War is manifested (through whomever and whatever - it really is not important to the force itself) in order to cull. I know this is quite trite - the whole natural selection and survival of the fittest kinda way, but it is the only way.

I have never been in a war, except maybe the internal and personal kind. That is hard enough to bear. Things that I have held inside that are no longer useful to me that I need to remove - it has become a war...but there is only one side fighting against itself.
 
 
LVX23
21:05 / 08.07.03
War is also often a result of resource competition. Too many people struggling for too few resources. In this sense the culling of war could be seen as an attempt to balance the equation by reducing the number of people. Unfortunately modern warfare tends to exact as much of a toll on resources as it does lives.

So if war is natural, is peace attainable?

If war is unnatural, or outmoded, can peace prevail against the remaining hawks and their missiles?

Finally, where does war & religion intersect? Are any wars just?
 
 
Salamander
21:51 / 08.07.03
Nanotech and the end to the limited supply philosophy will bring us the material means. Magick will bring us the spiritual means, but as I see it, whether conscious of it or not, there are many people and forces on this planet and in its corresponding other dimension (who would be conscious of the effort to arrest evolution, the O-D beings being the spiritual reality of the forces on th physical plane) who would probably like an increase in killing suffering and general entropy through out all systems, like a cancer growing in the holorganic body, mind you fighting and making war are to different things.
 
 
LVX23
04:37 / 09.07.03
Nanotech, totally. That's the only solution to the resource problem. That or massive population reduction. Personally I'b prefer the former (though nanotech itself could lead to population reduction). It could be the ultimate alchemy, at least in the debased sense of transmuting the elements.

And there are certainly entities and groups feeding off the energy of war and working to continue its existence on the planet. The Black Brothers. Archons. Oil & military conglomerates. Bush Co. Etc...
 
 
gravitybitch
14:37 / 09.07.03
I just finished reading The Chalice and the Blade by Riane Eisler. (Anybody else familiar with it? I'm kind of sold on her theories, although some of her arguments seem a little essentialist.)
Looking at war through the lens of dominator and partnership cultures, it seems that war is really good for proving and exercising superiority over somebody else. Likewise, the appropriation/hoarding of scarce resources....
 
 
*
21:30 / 09.07.03
Isz, I skimmed it awhile back; I'll have to go back and read more carefully. I feared it would carry the strong aroma of blind feminism, to which I'm as badly allergic as blind masculinism right now. In fact, anyone starts talking about the gender gap in any way, I have to run for it or I get a bad case of nausea.

I started reading my housemate's copy of Howard Zinn's Passionate Declarations, but then she wanted it back (evil person that she is). He had some interesting things to say about modern political thought and how it has largely been founded on the "realist" ideas promulgated by Machiavelli, which is to say, the blind acceptance that force is the only way to prosper or even survive. This idea is propped up by the unassailable cheats "Be realistic" "That's just the way things are" and "Look around you, it's human nature". Those are not acceptable arguments.

Personally, I blame the first farmers. Those folks caused all the problems. Gatherer-hunter humans rarely had any serious intergroup conflict, because two groups in conflict could just walk away. I'd like to pop through Hilbert Space for a look at a universe where a technologically advanced society evolved from a gatherer-hunter population without taking the ill-fated plunge through farming.
 
 
Adam Shame
17:30 / 10.07.03
entitything: Do I detect a bit of sarcasm or drollery, in your post?

I am wondering because I think the situation you are describing between the hunters/gatherers and the agriculturally based peoples may be a tad misconstrued.

Wasn't it the hunters/gatherers who conquered the agriculturally based peoples?
 
 
*
18:22 / 10.07.03
A bit of fun, perhaps, but more than a bit of seriousness as well. Look around you. How many hunter-gatherer groups do you see? Who do you think won that game, ultimately?

Within a relatively short biological timeframe, humanity had changed from universally a population of gatherer-hunters to near-universal farmers who were starting to build cities. HGs were more physically capable and overall healthier than the first farmers, but they were small bands, few in number, and were faced with a group which not only outnumbered them but suddenly had walls. They were also unused to challenges that they couldn't walk away from. Within a short few thousand years most of the usable land had been turned to farming, and the range open to HG bands was restricted to an area too small to sustain them, and without the necessary biodiversity to support their foraging. They were pushed out of their accustomed habitat and almost all began farming themselves. For the disadvantages of farming see Jared Diamond's article.

Further, settled villages appear during the rise of farming. This isn't so bad, but a settled lifestyle encourages population growth, which encourages large-scale agriculture, which encourages complex state-level societies, which tend to have oppressive class systems, stratified gender roles, intergroup competition, and even organized warfare, which is the topic. (Hah, I made this relevant.)

I think the situation you are thinking of may have occurred in isolated instances later on, such as the Hyksos people's momentary control of the Nile region. But on a geological scale, the agricultural revolution swept the world, in a relatively short period of time. It's still going on, in fact; there are very few HG populations left (the !Kung in Africa, for instance) and they're now being swept by industrialization.

My contention, although true to my tendencies I believe this only temporarily, until I am convinced otherwise, is that agriculture led to a competition for land and resources which was less of a problem when the world was sparsely populated by small mobile groups. State level society increased the problem, because people were now prone to accepting the authority of a ruling elite, and the ruling elite could order the underclasses to fight for them. So, according to my limited imagination, a hunter-gatherer society which developed writing and other advanced technologies without falling into the agriculture trap could have developed relatively peacefully-- provided they were in a sufficiently abundant environment and that the population remained low, which I think it would as long as a mobile strategy was favored over a settled one.
 
 
Salamander
18:45 / 10.07.03
I don't think that agrarian societies are neccesarily war like, or that hunter gatherers were peacful like, I would have to agree with McKennas theory in food of the gods, that we were warlike until we became a partnership society with the muchroom, and then after already having started an agrarian society, fell back on our warlike ways when the shroom disappeared, war is human nature? yes, war is inevitable? nah, I don't think so.
 
 
LVX23
19:29 / 10.07.03
entity raises some important points, namely the fact that agrarian life led to rising populations and caste systems. Farming allowed for

1) greater availability of food
2) higher fecundity
3) longer lifespans
4) time systems and mechanism in general
5) land ownership (something unheard of in HG tribes)
6) caste systems based on ownership and labor
7) cities

Basically, sitting in one spot, calling it yours, and generating resources is fine until your neighbor on the other side of the mountain can't grow anything cause of drought and they decide to raid your village for food.
 
 
*
19:42 / 10.07.03
I don't think we can really say war is human nature. All we have to go on is the tendency of history, and it's not such a long history when you think about it. People have a disconcerting tendency to make sweeping generalizations about things like "human nature" or "the real world", about which I don't think we can make any generalizations at all.

Throughout the whole of recorded history, it seems to me, we've been using one strategy in several variations. By which I mean that since the advent of writing, before which we have no way of knowing exactly what our ancestors were thinking or doing, we have been existing in various forms of the state level society. War seems to be integral to the strategy of a state level society. Perhaps there is a way of using the state level strategy without making use of war, but it certainly seems to be the norm.

Now, the state model is not the only way to have a complex society, it's just the one we're most familiar with. And unfortunately cultural inertia is such that it would take a catastrophic event (I hope not) or an overwheming change in cultural programming (I hope so) to make us abandon that strategy. We feel forced into the state model because "every other complex society is doing it mummy look!" But there are other options to be explored.
 
 
*
19:50 / 10.07.03
LVX, you might enjoy the article I linked. Farming dropped the average lifespan by about ten to twenty years. It wasn't until the advent of modern medicine that we really made up for it-- and in non-industrialized farming regions we still haven't. The reason for the drop is that farming is harder work for longer hours than foraging, disease is more endemic to a larger group which lives close together and settled in one place, and naturally the danger of starvation you mentioned.
 
  
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