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Star Wars/Harry Potter Synopsis

 
 
ephemerat
12:10 / 01.07.03
Just got mailed a link to this (somewhat unfairly reductive but still amusing):

 
 
Matthew Fluxington
12:20 / 01.07.03
What is "unfairly reductive" about that?

It's just a bunch of facts, really.
 
 
that
12:25 / 01.07.03
God, the whole 'chosen one' motif grates on my nerves...

S'quite funny, that piece. Obvious, but still quite well executed...
 
 
ephemerat
12:27 / 01.07.03
Any stories can be reduced to a small list of bare facts. In this case specific facts are chosen (because they tally) for humorous effect, differences are omitted for the same reason. I mean it's funny, but it's hardly a balanced analysis.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
12:30 / 01.07.03
It's not unfairly reductive, it's just not very surprising. This is the Joseph Campbell thing, isn't it? Harry Potter, Luke Skywalker, Hiro Protagonist, Neo (in the first 'Matrix', anyway) and so on. There's a limited number of stories, once you reduce far enough. Campbell, of course, was a friend of George Lucas.

Hero With a Thousand Faces"

(more)
 
 
ephemerat
12:32 / 01.07.03
God, the whole 'chosen one' motif grates on my nerves...

Totally - it strikes me as lazy writing and it just doesn't feel true. That's what's so nice about 'His Dark Materials' in comparison - the necessary qualities to be heroic or eeeevil, to succeed or fail etc are inherent in all of us. It's what you choose to do that matters.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
12:33 / 01.07.03
What major plot points are missing from either film? I've seen the both of them, and that's pretty much the gist of the stories.

I guess you can point out that Han Solo and Ron Weasely aren't the most analogous characters in the world (Ron being far more like C-3P0), and that there isn't a criminal outlaw element to Harry Potter, just as it is hard to find a character like Snape in the first Star Wars movie.

I think it is very notable that the first Harry Potter and the first Star Wars essentially have the same plot. I think it says a lot that children seem to really respond to that story, and that every 20 years or so we need a new version.

Also: Superman, Batman, and Spider-Man aren't too far removed from this basic storyline.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
12:40 / 01.07.03
Lazy?

Try 'inevitable'.

If you tell a story with anything like a standard modern narrative, you have a hero.

There are Chinese narratives, like 'The Water Margin', and pre-print narratives, like 'Beowulf', which have a far more meandering approach to story - 'Beowulf' does, obviously, have a 'chosen one' - the title character - but there's also great tracts of stuff about how much water you need for a sea-voyage - presumably, the Beowulf epic was a sort of learning song for quartermasters and so on, as well as an entertainment.

'The Water Margin' is much the same, in that it reads like a series of interlinked village histories, rather than a saga about an individual. Like 'Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon', it begins as a story about one hero and then follows another character, then another, then another, and never really comes back to the starting point.

Why does the 'chosen one' thing annoy you?

(Incidentally, I think the original 'Monkey' may represent an interesting middle way, but I'm not sure, because the only translation I've read is supposed to be ratehr lousy. Anyone know of a good one?)
 
 
that
13:19 / 01.07.03
Nick: I think Cass has already put it pretty succinctly - not sure I can add much by way of intelligent critique. My brain shorted out a couple of hours ago, and though it pains me, I just feel stupid and unable to offer up anything resembling sense, so I apologise in advance. The saviour narrative bothers me because it just seems bloody unhealthy and quite distasteful, and the belief in inherent 'qualities' annoys me... it's about as subtle as the Sorting Hat.
 
 
ephemerat
13:22 / 01.07.03
I think I'm actually hitting out at the worst of genre fiction plotting more specifically - especially where the main character accrues success by dint of unique super/magical powers with little or no personal sacrifice or character progression. All the best fiction transcends this (something which I think both Star Wars and Harry Potter have managed). Twists its roots.

I agree with you that superhero stories, Star Wars, Harry Potter etc seem to tap into something that all children (and adults too) feel: that they are different, that they are special, that perhaps their parents are not their parents, that their lives will be significant, that they will change things. It seems likely that this is one of the primary reasons for their success.

And yeah, Campbell was certainly on my mind when I posted this - one of the things I remember reading about Star Wars was how Lucas specifically wrote it to try to capture that essence of the traditional quest story by combining elements from several fairy stories (and the I-Ching). Harry Potter lacks the rescue of the princess trope - but I can't think of many major plot points (in the first Harry Potter) that are omitted from the list. Hm...

Oh yeah - heroes and Star Wars:

'They were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Naturally they became heroes' - Princess Leia in the first chapter of Lucas's novelisation.

Although, Luke obviously flies in the face of the by having (like Harry) family ties.
 
 
ephemerat
13:26 / 01.07.03
Sorry, yeah - 'somewhat unfairly reductive' - because all stories can be reduced in this way whereas this chap appears to be suggesting that Harry Potter is a rip-off of Star Wars. Hence the notes in my topic abstract.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
13:27 / 01.07.03
Although, Luke obviously flies in the face of the by having (like Harry) family ties.

Hey, Leia too.
 
 
ephemerat
13:30 / 01.07.03
I also remember wondering if Harry was going to turn out to be Voldemort's son...
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
13:50 / 01.07.03
I keep hoping that George Lucas has the sense to not make Emperor Palpatine Anakin Skywalker's father.
 
 
that
13:53 / 01.07.03
Of course he does. He just doesn't have the sense not to make Anakin Skywalker an immaculate conception...
 
 
grant
14:13 / 01.07.03

Philip Pullman/The Golden Compass.

Iorek Byrnison = Han Solo.

Lyra, I am your... mother.

& Leia dies, not Ben.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
14:20 / 01.07.03
Cholister: okay, fair enough. I wasn't going to come after you with a big stick, I was just perplexed because I wasn't sure whether you meant Chosen Ones in general or HP in particular. I don't see a lot of profit in another debate about HP - I think they're more subtle than a lot of people give them credit for, and I think a lot of the criticisms are mistaken - but I also eagerly await the day when people recognise Forest Gump for the left-wing subversive cinema it transparently is.

(cue Tom's head exploding if he reads that)

Before I leave that one well alone, can I just point out that HP is unfinished, so we may well see a Princess in the Tower plot (and by the way, we already have, up to a point: Ginny Weasley in 'Chamber of Secrets'), and the Sorting Hat / innate qualities - may yet turn out to be a little more nuanced. [Mini Spoiler for Order of the Phoenix]: I had the impression from OTP that the Sorting Hat was about to start playing Hogwarts Roulette (maybe in book 6) in order to address the differences between the houses - which might reveal that those qualities are not innate after all.

Cheers...
 
 
that
14:45 / 01.07.03
Sorry, Nick - just feeling headachy and delicate and knowing perfectly well that I can't cope with a reasoned and intelligent debate at the moment. Or possibly ever.

It's pretty obvious that a lot of the issues with the Potter books are going to be worked out - the House Elves, the Sorting Hat, the evils of Slytherin... Hell, I like the books, and I don't think they're crap or evil or whatever, any more so than most things...but in general, the chosen one schtick makes me uneasy. As for a hero being practically necessary, that may be so, but the fanfic has given me a finer appreciation of the fact that the minor characters have lives too. I'd like it a lot if JKR wrote a 253-style book dealing with all the minor characters in brief.

But this could just be because I have a crush on Charlie Weasley...
 
 
ephemerat
14:57 / 01.07.03
grant: Similarly I had a conversation with C.Elseware and Quantum over several drinks a few weeks ago in which we were positing the existence of certain character archetypes in almost all modern fiction. We'd tied them to Greater Arcana tarot (The Hierophant and The Hanged Man were two that we applied to a number of films and books e.g. Ben and Han Solo respectively)

Nick: we may well see a Princess in the Tower plot (and by the way, we already have, up to a point: Ginny Weasley in 'Chamber of Secrets')

That's why I specified first film - I wasn't sure, but thought I remembered some Princess in the Tower riff in 'Chamber of Secrets'. Need to re-read these books before I tackle HP5, anyway.

I had the impression from OTP that the Sorting Hat was about to start playing Hogwarts Roulette (maybe in book 6) in order to address the differences between the houses - which might reveal that those qualities are not innate after all.

This I would be very interested to see. I'd previously built up a sneaking suspicion that the Sorting Hat and houses were some horrendous experiment in social engineering - an attempt to stigmatise children right from there first moments at school. Certainly I'd wondered at the respective percentages of houses would turn up to Hogwart's school reunions. Not many Hufflepuffs I'd imagine (as they are pretty much relegated to the role of fat, comedy sidekicks for life). You could imagine plenty of hail-fellow-well-met Gryffindor-types engaged in mutual back-slapping, lots of fuck-you-all-tell-me-I'm-a-monster-and-I'll-be-a-monster Slytherans and a smattering of Ravenclaws still worried that they might be tripped or have their glasses or books stolen. Nasty.
 
 
that
15:06 / 01.07.03
God, yeah. The Hufflepuffs get the worst deal. I mean, JKR says in so many words that they're the poor fucks that no other house will take. The 'nice' ones. The dim ones. The boring ones.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
16:25 / 01.07.03
The egalitarians...

Hufflepuff was definitely 'nice but dim' at first. I, at least, have an increasing sense that they're the least deranged and unbalanced of the houses. And they're not 'remedial'; the other houses have their share of catastrophically stupid people.

On of the things which interests me about Rowling is that she, herself, is very much a work in progress. "Philosopher's Stone" was a very basic book. "Goblet of Fire" and "Order of the Phoenix" are considerably more nuanced. The complexity of her world has come a long way since she was an unknown just leaving a lousy marriage. This reflects a growing up process for the characters, but I can't help but feel that it's also her own. "Philosopher's Stone" was definitely painted in primary colours; the more recent books are not. [Mini Spoiler for OTP]: Umbridge's torture-pen is one of the most disturbing things I've come across in anyone's fiction - easily worthy of Pullman's terrifying Mrs. Coulter.

The characterisation of the houses along 'innate quality of character' lines was easy for a first-time novelist. It seems to me that that simplicity - like the good/bad perceptions of a child based on one's own wants - is evolving.
 
 
that
16:43 / 01.07.03
No - Helga Hufflepuff was evidently an egalitarian. Doesn't necessarily follow that the members of her House are... they may well be the least unbalanced, but I don't remember having been formally introduced to a single Hufflepuff in any meaningful manner in any of the books. Ravenclaw are similarly a blank space. So, ultimately, we just don't know. Yet.

Yeah, I was surprised at how twisted Umbridge's pen thing was. Odd, too, that she could get away with it - slightly jarring, even in child-in-cupboard JKR land. But then it's odd that Azkaban exists unchecked, so...
 
 
that
20:36 / 01.07.03
Actually, that was a pretty stupid thing to say... ignore me.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
23:51 / 01.07.03
Iorek Byrnison = Han Solo.
And now I must marry grant.
 
 
_Boboss
10:04 / 02.07.03
reminds me of an article in ft a year or so ago, saying bin laden is at least in part inspired by asimov's 'foundation' [i think] trilogy, which he is apparently known to have read and enjoyed, and al qaeda means foundation or cornerstone or something. basically yr son of a wealthy family is betrayed by the evil empire and hides in a corner of the galaxy where he meets a band of plucky freedom fighters and leads them to victory etc. the article goes on to point out that that's pretty much the plot of every sci-fi trilogy and blah blah.

i reckon the humans are pretty simple, changing little from age to age, going through basically the same trials and tribulations, despite their silly claims to uniqueness, individuality and suchlike. the same types of story are applicable to their pleasure and experience throughout.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
11:14 / 02.07.03
'Al Qaeda' means 'The Base' as much as 'The Foundation', I think. Grew up from Ozzie's relief/defense outfit in Afghanistan, which was funded through Pakistan by the US. I'd forgotten the Asimov link.

The trilogy structure obviously lends itself to Campbell's Hero's Journey / three act structure, just as it also lends itself to weak middle chapters where nothing is resolved... 'Empire' being a notable exception, and this being unsurprising given that Lucas was aided and abetted by some able people, including Lawrence Kasdan, who is one of the most significant screenwriters around.
 
  
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