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My brief flirtation with newcastle's local slave trade

  
  

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ephemerat
07:25 / 12.08.03
Ah, fuck this. Do I worry about derailing the thread? Do I worry about being seen as PC? Not really.

I worry about friends of mine who may be hurt by the casual use of racial slurs. It's been politely and with great restraint pointed out to you (extremely eloquently by Haus amongst others), calvinballronan, that others may be hurt by your use of language. Other people that I care about, who I do not wish to see hurt, who I do not wish to see driven from the board because you've decided that the use of terms most commonly associated with race-hate makes you seem edgy, cool and liberated. It doesn't. It just makes you another pompous, self-important arse who clearly doesn't give a fuck about the feelings of others. I don't know who you are or where you're from and I don't care. You've just flushed both your point and your credibility down a very large toilet.

Whoever you are, please, just fuck off.

(oops!)
 
 
Quantum
10:39 / 12.08.03
"I'm not sure the authorities would want to upset what is obviously a very neat little business venture."
I wonder which authorities you mean? Safeways certainly won't, (although if you blow the whistle to a TV show they'll no doubt cease trading with the slavers and profess shock and outrage) but your local council might be interested. And the police...
I see your point about not wanting the slaves to lose their jobs, but how then will their job market improve? If illegal low paid work is condoned, it'll continue, if it's stopped then wages and conditions will improve. Maybe I'm naive but isn't that the principle behind unions, labour laws etc?
I feel sympathetic toward the people trapped in that situation (I stripped sweetcorn before there was a minimum wage, agricultural labour is often shit) but is it right to support illegal immigration? By tacitly accepting that they should work in labour camps? IMO our immigration laws are knackered, but if someone does get here and is granted asylum (not unusual) shouldn't they be allowed the opportunity to get a decent job? If they get here illegally, probably via criminal organisations, should they then be forced to work for other criminal organisations on a slave wage? Or should there be a system in place for dealing with illegal immigrants other than deporting them?

(*sigh* disclaimer- I know it's not technically slavery, and I should be fully on the side of the torture victims, and Calvinballronan shouldn't use racist language, and I don't know what it's like to be an illegal immigrant trapped in a foreign country with a family to feed etc.)
 
 
The Natural Way
15:07 / 12.08.03
I wouldn't go as far as "you've flushed yrself and yr point down the toilet", but would ask why you insist, Calvin, on using terms like "wogs". I can't see any reason for it except for "cool and edgy", lets-wake-these-uptight-barbeloids-up-to-the-language-people-really-use bullshit. It just seems a little juvenile and Puhuaaarghnk.

I'm not trying to be nasty here, just pointing out that this stuff's pretty transparent.
 
 
The_T
01:22 / 04.09.03
I agree with the sentiments expressed above re: the use of "edgy" racial language (though I do have the distinction of actually knowing calvinballronan in real life and it's not really just a web thing - he means well but is sometimes careless about offending others). I think people who want to shake up other's perceptions should think seriously about whether they're offending precisely the same victims of racism that are offended by less post modern use of terms like nigger and wog. I've offended in this sense before but I don't think a little bit of sensitivity is going to hurt anyone particularly in a medium like this where people can't tell whether you're joking or not.
In reply to not me again (and therefore consequentially also matthew stolte) it would almost certainly be 2, not 1 - people who act outside the law rarely have any regard for it and certainly seem to have little qualm about beating up well-meaning white folks. Sadly, the only answer, on reflection seems to be shopping the gang-masters and hoping that some of the workers can trade testifying against them for residency or find some legal form of work here. Without attacking those fuelling the illegal business it will always continue to get worse (unless you see the number of desperate, poor people ever decreasing while dubya is in the white house).
 
 
Morpheus
22:18 / 04.09.03
{threadrot=oversensitive bullshit} pleease...I beg you... freedom of speech is a human right..so drop it.

I am from Wisconsin the grandson of eighth generation farmers. The farm is gone. My parents had college friends who were all Mexican brothers from Texas. They also were very politcally active and were working on the very issues you all are speaking of now. At least attempting to in the long year of 1976/77. Jimmy Carter the peanut pres. was all for making a Southern Texas Farm workers Union and so hired all the Salas brothers and my father to implement a program that would improve commerce by adding an entire growing session and would legitamize and empower an entire people who were made to feel like criminals and then to turn them into that very thing by the nature of the "business". It is one thing to say that the treatment is caused by the market. But in fact it is used to foster fear. To Dominate these people is to feel better for the abuses you inflict upon them. Like a prisoner these people can-not by any means feel good about what they do or appear happy. Cruelty is a tool used to manipulate the minds of the weak.
I'm not sure who was running Texas in those years,(Bushs CIA?) but when the program was months old and ready to begin, me and my Dad and Jesus Salas were greeted that morning by the sound of our Caddy DeVille explodeing and jumping about 10 feet into the air. We were about 200 ft away in our hotel room and I was only 11 years old at the time. I drove all the way from Wisconsin in that car and remember missing the car and not thinking much about the fact that I was lucky we were not in it. Jesus said we had to go get our guns and we ran out of the hotel. A week later my Dad got a letter from Jimmy Carter that basically said the program was scrap and there were no reasons given. That whole thing was a lifetime of work and hope for many people destroyed by an inland terrorist attack. Instead of running Jesus bought a semi trailer full of watermelon and we all headed back to the 7-mile fair in Milwaukee to sell it out the back of the truck. Those were great days sitting in the semi and telling people going by our stand how good the melon was and laughing about our near brush with death.
It is about Domination not economy. Feeling better about yourselves regardless of what you do. We can change more then you could imagine if only we had the will.

Now I leave it to some bastard to take offence once again and rant about feelings all over again.
 
 
The_T
12:00 / 05.09.03
I take your point and passim about threadrot undermining what is a very serious issue and I agree with you that the use of immigrant labour in both the US and UK is about the domination of the weak (non-english speaking immigrant labour) by the strong (agro-business) for the sake of profits. Your experience underlines the complete ruthlessness of the agricultural establishment when it's vested interests are threatened.
However it is sloppy logic to blame those offended by racist terminology for the subsequent argument. All those involved knew that wog was racially derogatory before this started and no-one has really gained again through it. In short if any word like asians, indians, chinese, etc, etc had been rather than wog there would have been no thread rot and no hard feelings and we would have spent far more time discussing the issues at hand rather than PC / iconoclastic language.
 
 
Not Here Still
17:40 / 12.09.03
Lincolnshire MP Mark Simmonds wants so-called gangmasters who organise agricultural crews to register their workers.

He is calling for the new legislation to protect legitimate workers from exploitation.

At present, employers do not have to register their workers, but Mr Simmonds wants a compulsory registration scheme introduced.

Tory MP in worthwhile proposal shock?
 
 
Nematode
21:23 / 12.09.03
Isn't that just going to totally fuck cash in hand work across the board. Dunno if I'm too keen........
 
 
grim reader
20:53 / 15.09.03
Mr T, thats rather a case of the pot calling the kettle black, you darn racist you. Don't pretend y'all don't enjoy being self righteous.
 
 
Nematode
16:44 / 16.09.03
Just as you evidently love to provoke. Trouble is here that the issue isn't really people being self righteous but you. I reckon the problem is that you came in at too higher level here with 'wog', we just weren't ready for you. If you're going to go for this sort of thing again may I suggest slipping in a word like 'dago'. Hone it all a bit, build it up and then when we're all there; you, the self righteous ones, the wider world, wham, hit us with 'wog' or 'coon'or miss spell 'nigga'. Obviously you'll have to change the context a bit depending on the word you want to use but you should be able to manage that, I mean context is hardly the point now is it?
 
 
Not Here Still
18:07 / 16.09.03
Tell you what everyone, let's just fucking call the whole thing off. I can't be arsed with this - Calvin had a worthwile point but just seems to want to be a silly fucker with his choice of language and then to keep the row boiling, others want to keep on throwing fuel on his fire - apologies to Nematode, who I'll keep on discussing this with through PM's if so desired, but bollocks to it. Can't be doing with this anymore.

MODERATOR! LOCK THIS THREAD!
 
  

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