BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Underground > Comic Books >

Comics I don't see discussed here much.

  
 
houdini
04:48 / 19.06.03

Hi there.

I like Barbelith quite a bit for a bit of the old ultra-discussion of X-titles. But I'm quite surprised that a forum composed of people who, I think, consider themselves to be a bit ... edgy ... don't spend more time talking about the following books, most of which I was not able to turn up ANY threads on in the Search function, and all of which seem to me to be more interesting than discussing Ultimate War or MODOK:

Jessica Abel's Arbabe and La Perdida
Joe Matt's Peepshow
Chester Brown's Yummy Furr, Underwater, I Never Liked You, Louis Riel
Seth's Palookaville, especially It's A Good Life If You Don't Weaken and Clyde Fans
Jason Lutes's Berlin, City Of Stones
Gary Spencer Milli(d?)ge's Strangehaven
Paul Grist's Kane and Jack Staff
Drooker's Flood! and Blood Song
Dave Sim's Cerebus
Mark Oakley's Thieves & Kings
Colleen Doran's A Distant Soil
Linda Medley's Castle Waiting
Brian Ralph's Climbing Out
James Kochalka's Monkey Vs Robot and The Awful Truth About Comics

... and so on.

So, am I using the Search function wrong? Did I miss all the discussions on these works, or am I just posting on the wrong board?

Does anyone have anything interesting to say about any of the above books? If so, start the ball rolling and I'll be along in a wee while to respond to you. Feel free to start a new thread if you want to -- it's not like these books don't deserve a thread each.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
05:21 / 19.06.03
It is both edgy, underground, and eccentric in a charming way to like Marvel and DC books, with the very occasional indie book thrown in. It's like if a girl finds out a guy writes poetry she thinks "Oooo-la-la, that's weird, but it's also kinda cool!" But if she finds out he's the editor for a top poetry selling magazine (sounds absurd, but follow with me) and routinely deconstructs poetry and can quote more than 5 poets, he just becomes creepy. Stick to Marvel and DC kid, I think they're launching a 12th Batman title, try that.
 
 
videodrome
05:35 / 19.06.03
Many of these books seem to be on the lists that people keep in their back pocket to pore over in the loo, so that when the comics are brought up in conversation, they can be acknowledged with a sage nod and 'oh,yes, that's really important stuff' before the conversation returns to whether or not Jean and Wolvie snogged.

That's not to say that the titles never come up. But recent conversation demonstrated that Dave Sim's alledged misogyny places Cerebus out of the range of acceptable discussion, while Seth has made his way onto the board, if only for a moment.

But more and more I'm getting the sense that Barbelith is a place where we like to pay glossy lip service to material generally acknowledged to be intriguing, while using the meat of discussion time to trump up and attempt to justify the mainstream work that we tear back down with our next breath.
 
 
moriarty
05:45 / 19.06.03
Many of those comics have been discussed on threads where they weren't the main focus of attention but ones which deal with a wide range of titles in one place. I know that sometime in the last few years Peepshow, It's A Good Life If You Don't Weaken, Louis Riel, Eightball, Strangehaven, Kane, and Cerebus have all been mentioned or discussed, and quite possibly others that I don't remember as well.

You're right that many of those titles would be worthy of their own thread, but keep in mind that there aren't really as many people in the Comics forum as there might seem to be. About a year ago, when I was a moderator, I counted up how many indivduals had contributed even one post to the Comics Forum in the last month. There were no more than 50 people.

I imagine many people here are like me and are on a slight budget. It makes sense that people will buy similar things so that they can discuss them with a large group afterwards, thus in some way increasing the value of their purchase. I would love to see a thread on Peanuts, Little Orphan Annie or Pogo, and every once in awhile I give it a shot, but I don't blame anyone for not rushing out and blowing money they might not have.
 
 
RadJose
05:51 / 19.06.03
most of that stuff does hit a "it's important stuff" note, but most of it also seems to hit that "not so much fun" note too... i'm not suprized that this stuff isn't really discussed much, as i find it a bit boring... except "eighball" is in the abstract and that usually is discussed... the work of Kolchaka not being discussed is odd tho, as it is fun, and pretty, and not to serious... Peanut Butter and Jermey rules!
 
 
sleazenation
07:39 / 19.06.03
I totally disagree on the "not much fun" note

When berlin, or kane or strangehaven (Millidge btw) come out they are always the first things to be read. But they do come out less frequently.

Now I would hope that the only reason that x-men threads get more play at the moment is because they are published more frequently.

Actually I seen flux give the big up to La Perdida and I've been reading it from the start and don't share his inflated opinion of it - maybe there is a thread in that.

Another thread might be good to do is a hype thread for non-monthly comics and graphic novels...

I'll go start some now...
 
 
Cat Chant
10:43 / 19.06.03
La Perdida is the one about the white girl in Mexico, yes? I really love Jessica Abel's art and storytelling, but I thought the one issue I read was a bit... obvious (it was the one that ended with whatsername ripping down her Frida Kahlo poster and howling "I'm not a conquistadora!")

I tend to only read non-comics-type comics (b&w comics written/drawn by women, especially queer women). Just discovered Phoebe Gloeckner a few months ago (half-price "graphic novel" and indie comics sale at my local Forbidden Planet - yayy!) and was blown away. Plus anything by Peter Milligan, who is the least comicsy of the mainstream comics writers, IMO. So I'd love to see more threads discussing and recommending them - as moriarty says, they're a bit of an investment for the cash-flow-impaired.

(Luckily, my reading habits have not impaired my ability to pull women, Jack. )
 
 
_Boboss
11:32 / 19.06.03
everyone here's way too in their arses to read jack staff i reckon. its the best comic of all these days, but grist, well, you wouldn't want to BE him would you? he was a bit offish with me at bristol, so fuck him, but buy his comics whenever you can, burglar bill the other week was a toppy treat. the strangehaven annual is always very good and millidge is just lovely, but could do with a haircut. the rest? well i'm clearly not smart enough to enjoy canadian masturbation comics and black and white generally makes me reach for the felt-tips. this forum's good for getting people to tell you juice-o nuggins of conjecture and hype, or reference-spotting, and i imagine a lot of the comics mentioned don't really require that kind of analysis in the way that moore and morrison's work often does. plus, y'know pop-pop-pop - it generally needs a bit of colour.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:51 / 19.06.03
To an extent, you're using the search engine wrong, or more precisely the search engine is, generally, wrong - it is one fo the weaknesses of the board that the Search Engine doesn't work very well at all.

Some of these I have read but not stuck with (I wouldn't say Cerebus is outside the pale of discussion, by the way, just that it's very hard to have a discussion without the feminist-homosexualist axis being mentioned), others I have looked at and not been too interested by, others I have read and liked but don't feel competent to discuss. As has been mentioned, the long delays between releases probably have a part to play in the lack of popularity, along with the low numbers of members of the comics forum.

La Perdida and Jack Staff I *would* liek to talk about, but from a position of almost total ignorance. I'm trying to cut back on my comics consumption, most of my purchases being habit rather than actual enjoyment (thank you Brian Michael Bendis for making this easier), but these are two titles I'm wondering about picking up. There's already a la Perdida thread - I'll start a Jack Staff one now.
 
 
houdini
15:40 / 19.06.03

Hey, a big shout out to all the people who decided not to waste their time calling me an elitist dickweed - uncommon civil for the web in general, but I guess I should expect it on the 'lith.

Couple responses to interesting points people've made:

Everyone -- I think those of you who diagnozed the lack of a monthly presence on shelves as being the greatest impediment to the accessibility of titles are 100% on the money. The books I cited in my list are all things that I think rawk and that I look forward eagerly to seeing again, even some of them (Kane) will never be seen again and books like Peepshow and Black Hole now seem to come out on an annual basis. But if this stuff came out monthly -- heck, even bimonthly -- then I would be super-happy and would probably not need to continue reading the superhero monthlies that I do. (Currently X-Statix and New X meN, which I'd keep, and Global Frequency and The Filth, which I'd ditch in a trice.)

I'm kindly surprised by the "low numbers of members of the comics forum". It certainly seems to me that comics was what brought me to Barbelith in the first place. The old, hmmmm, wonder if there's some secret master mad website to be found if I type "www.barbelith.com" in as my url.... So I guess I'm a bit suprised that few people talk comics here any more. Mind you, I know that the difference between having 2218 members and X many posting members can be quite large. Question: Do you think more of the members who post regularly in other fora would be attracted to comics if Mozza was doing 'The Invisibles' or more Vertigo-style projects and less X-Men? (Personally, I'm a longtime X-Fan in the LLMBG (??) stylee, so I'm happy to see the book done well, but I digress....)

Khaologan23ris -- I got to meet both Paul Grist and Gary Spencer Millidge at the 'Sprits of Independence' signing at Page 45 in the autumn of '96. Wow, while back that. They both struck me as absolutely top blokes and I (not name dropping or nothing) ended up propping up some hotel bar in Nottingham with them two and El Sim, back before he'd really, really lost it, and generally felt pretty good about it. But then, I've met plenty ither famous folk who seemed kinda ... arsey. I think it's a lot to do with the way our culture treats the famous. I reckon you should think about maybe forgive-and-forgetting on the Paul Grist : Grumpy thing; eveyone has a bad day now and again....

Sleaze -- Like you I totally disagree on the "not much fun" note. Everything I listed above I read because I love it. Some of it does require different reading conditions. I can read New X meN on the bog because of the episodic format. Somehow if I sit down to re-read the first trade of Berlin: City of Stones then I want to be in a chair with a cup of tea and an undisturbed couple of hours when I know roommates are not going to be barging in to ask me to shave their heads and friends from across town phoning to get me to go to punk shows. Do you (or anyone) reckon that the different reading requirements of "more serious" (or some'nt) books affects the amount of interest they draw? I will say that I bought McKean's 'Cages' about 9 months before I moved across the pond and I never did put aside the weekend I'd promised myself with which to lock myself in my bedroom and contemplate it. So it remains on a shelf in my old bedroom in my folks' place in Edinburgh and who knows when the two of us shall meet again....

Khaologan23ris and others -- D'you reckon colour is really such a big deal? I actually find black & white comics dead satisfying. The covers of Bone, f'rex, always look kind of weird to me, 'cause I prefer the palette my mind's eye produces. I reckon the ultimate test for whether B&W can't be better than colour is to grab one of the old B&W Titan reprints of Swamp Thing and hold it next to the latest, DC/Vertigo reproduced, digitally re-touched full colour trades. Apart from the fact the spines are gradually disintegrating, the Titan books look approximately a billion times better. Sorry, Tatjana, but it's true!

Em, I've got more to say about most of these books, but I reckon you're probably fed up with me already. 'Sides, I should save as much as possible for the Jack Staff, La Perdida and other threads that are out there now.

Cheers.
 
 
some guy
15:57 / 19.06.03
This ties in to the monthly thing, but part of the reason the X books generate so many threads is because they are soap operas. Discussing what might happen, what has happened etc. is different to talking about something like Shutterbug Follies, which can only really be a post mortem. They're different kinds of fiction, and so I'm not really surprised to see a lack of ongoing discussion about Monkey vs Robot.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:01 / 19.06.03
Dead right. Look at the "X-Men 2" movie discussion. We were up to casting on plotting X5, last time I looked.
 
 
dlotemp
23:24 / 19.06.03
I can corroborate moriarty's comments that many non-mainstream books have been discussed in errant threads, although they obviously are a minority of the overall discussion.

One creator not mentioned in the original list - I'm sure no slight was meant - was Joe Sacco, who I think is doing some classic work with his Palestine and Balkan comic reporting. His art style, so clearly influenced by the 70s & 80s underground, informs his stories with a vitality little seen in other books. Also, he's got a killer sense of pacing and panel structure. Check out page 23 of his comic SOBA for his reinactment of a murderous market bombing: sublimity, mundanity and horror all combined in one page.
 
 
_Boboss
10:24 / 20.06.03
forgive paul grist? shit i'm hardly doing nothing but go on how amazing his comics are today. he should have been more polite to me the other weekend, all i wanted was to buy some back issues from him and have a chat and he was too busy doing free sketches for some other cunts in long leather. i'm paying his rent and moan blather rah rah rah
but i won't mention his hair any more, that's just tight.

and colour? yeah it's important to me, especially these days where you're paying around two quid for each book. the swamp thing example is sort of fair [tho i think it's important that swampy is green! green! green!] but shit me have you tried, say, ditko's dr strange in black and white? to me it's practically unreadable, but with just four simple colours added it becomes sublime.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
12:50 / 20.06.03
Ah man, I've *already* had this conversation two days ago. In private correspondence with Big Sunny D, that is.

I'll tell you exactly what I told him, because I just woke up and I'm feeling lazy:

Well, part of it definitely has to do with the infrequent publication and occasionally spotty distribution. I think a big part of it has to
do with the nature of the stories and the writing. Monthly serials
lend themselves to "oooh, what's gonna happen next"
conversation, lots of speculation and off the cuff analysis. They are
easy to chat about. With a lot of the better indie stuff, it's more
complex work which isn't so easy to talk about. Analyzing those
comics isn't always hard, but it's not exactly easy too. I know that
for the most part, I don't feel a need to talk about the work of
Daniel Clowes - I don't have a lot to say about it, and that in a lot
of ways comes from his work dealing with emotional issues and ideas
that aren't always easy to talk about with people. It's a more
internal thing. It's more private. A lot of the best indie work often
depends on relating to some very dark emotions and negative
experiences, which some folks may not really want to talk about too
much. The reasons why I related to the last issue of Optic Nerve or
some of Chester Brown's work are certainly some things I don't really
want to talk about online, for example. So, yeah, the nature of the
work changes things a lot.

There are other occasions in which I'm relatively certain that very
few people have read something, and I'm not eager to start a thread
that may get one or two half-hearted responses before falling to the
back pages.

One thing that we could try (which was proposed a long time ago, but
no one ever followed through) was for us to do a Barbelith Book Of
The Month thing. I remember that the book we were all going to get
and discuss was David Boring. That may not be such a bad idea, but I
remember folks dealing with money issues and it fell apart. If we
were going to do something like that, I'd want to do Caricature
instead - I think it'd be fun for a lot of us to pour over each
individual story in that book.

I'd be happy to talk about La Perdida in particular, because I think that after Daniel Clowes's work, it is the single best comic book being published today. I haven't bothered talking about it here mostly because I didn't realize that anyone besides me and two other people had any interest in talking about it. Regardless, Big Sunny D and I have talked about it quite a bit via email, and I'm afraid that itch may be scratched til the next issue comes out in 2004.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
13:05 / 20.06.03
I've got to say that I prefer black and white comics to color, by the way. I think color often gets in the way and muddies up the illustrations, particularly in older comics with lousy color jobs. I like the simple, graphic quality of black and white, especially when I'm looking at the work of cartoonists with a real mastery of their craft. Lately, if I'm on the telephone, I'll just sit there staring in awe at the pages of my Essential Spider-Man and Essential Fantastic Four books.

There are times when color really works for me - Laura Allred does brilliant work, Daniel Clowes did probably the finest color job I've ever seen in Eightball #22, but it's usually something I can do without.

(Note: I definitely prefer black and white in photography as well.)
 
 
_Boboss
14:32 / 20.06.03
wow i wish I could keep it that real
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
14:42 / 20.06.03
I'm glad you brought up color v. black and white. It's a very interesting phenomenon in the indies, especially with the cost of coloring a book yourself lowering dramatically. I'm going to be seperating my own book, which shaves a bit off the much higher cost of it, and I'm certainly not, you know, adept at much. People like Jordan Crane and John Pham (read Epoxy #3 immediately if you have yet to) are being even slicker by basically printing black and white books with well chosen color ink. Then there's Forlorn Funnies which is in full color and nicely done at that. I really like the way independent creators color their books, all flat and very little shading. It's almost like a new slicker generation of the Stan and Jack look. Comics work best, I think, when they're as close to their iconographic roots as possible, visually.

Black and white always works better for more personal works, as the depth tends to be provided by the line work and, whoops, now I'm talking out of my ass.

I like color photography a lot.

Color Comics these days hardly ever think about what colors can really do from a design sense. They're too concerned with three dimensonality which, hello, is never going to look that convincing anyway. Look at Catwoman or the latest Promethea (cover more than a little inspired by Jordan Crane). Hollingsworth's work on Daredevil or Spider Man: Blue. People like Clowes and Chris Ware have always known that that's the way colors should work. Comics have a very unique opportunity to meld impressionistic color with visual representations of reality and not have it look completely ridiculous (see: any overly saturated movie made over the past twenty years). Most small press comics that are in color tend to take it to very appealing places. It'd be difficult to argue that Abel's covers for La Perdida (for example) aren't the most colorfully gorgeous things on any rack it's displayed on.

As far as Indie-based threads, I think it's also a question of in many cases there not being a lot to argue about, or speculate which is what a LOT of threads do. I personally would love to have a thread based on Cerebus and the nigh-untouchability of Dave Sim as a visual storyteller, a sort of Best Of Buffy type thread with one's favorite moments.

(Personally, the first one that pops into my mind is when Michelle tells Cerebus, "Don't you miss people when they leave?" and there's this panel of Cerebus with a thought baloon consisting only of Elrod's smiling face that just kills me every time.)

I also think there's plenty to talk about, as far as subtext goes, for nearly all of the books that have been mentioned. I think the book of the month idea is fantastic. I'd be interested in Joe Matt's new hardcover but, is that cost thing still an issue? Wouldn't there at least be a few people around who could swing it?
 
 
electric monk
16:29 / 20.06.03
Been feeling I should put my money where my mouth is and pick up more independent-minded comic fare. The idea of a "book of the month" jibes rather nicely for me, so I'd be up for it. Speaking personally, tho, it'd be better financially to pick up a comic/one shot book as opposed to a hardcover GN.

[*threadrot ensues*]

Anyone pick up Sock Monkey #1? That's a roundtable discussion just waiting to happen (-grin-)

[*threadrot terminates]
 
 
moriarty
17:02 / 20.06.03
One thing that we could try (which was proposed a long time ago, but
no one ever followed through) was for us to do a Barbelith Book Of
The Month thing. I remember that the book we were all going to get
and discuss was David Boring. That may not be such a bad idea, but I
remember folks dealing with money issues and it fell apart.

That would be Perse and me, with our Two-Person Comic Book Club. We figured that as long as we set our sights low, and didn't count on anyone else joining in, we would be pleasantly surprised if anyone did. A few other people joined us on the two stabs we took at it, but real-life and real-money concerns took over, for me at least.

Keep in mind that, obviously, not everyone is going to jump on every selection, money matters or not. I guess it might defeat the purpose of a book club, but I know that I don't really have any interest in picking up any of Clowes' or Abel's work, much like many people didn't want to lay out cash for Batman-Year One or Hellboy. Good luck. I'm sure I'll join in once I get back to school and have a decent income.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
17:05 / 20.06.03
That would be Perse and me, with our Two-Person Comic Book Club.

Actually, the thing I was talking about was Steve Block's idea.

I think Clowes would be a good person to start with since a lot of people here already have his books. I think Caricature is the best choice because of its "collection of short stories" nature, and that it's also one of his best works. It would be a good start.
 
 
moriarty
17:15 / 20.06.03
Oh. Hadn't realized there had been another one in the works.

And I wasn't criticizing your choices there, Flux. They sound like books many people here would enjoy. I won't pretend that my tastes differ slightly.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
04:37 / 21.06.03
I don't talk about those comics because...well, so many of them have been discussed to death, or came out a while ago.

I LOVE Seth's work, but he's So Fucking Slow it will be a couple years before Clyde Fans is done...and then I'll just say, "wow. That was just...wow."

Cerebus? Geez, he should have stopped after Rick's story. He jumped the shark right after that.

I dislike Clowes because he HATES his characters.

I think Chris Ware is about to kill a very good career with another story about how comics fans are dorks.

I'm currently overwhlemed by "Beg the Question" and am glad I waited for the hardcover, as it feels like a real novel with all the corrections.

And I think Chester Brown could beat R. Crumb in a fist fight if Kirby drew it.
 
 
sleazenation
08:22 / 21.06.03
I'd tend to agree on the problems of getting people to try new stuff

Personally I entered in the debate on batman year one because i already have and enenjoyed that book. While i enjoy Mignola's artwork Hellboy has never held much interest for me and i was kind of reluctant to invest money in a book i wasn't too interested in... I've even got one of the trades from the library and failed to get too far into it... I'm a bad comics moderator.

I would be up for resurecting the cookicbookclub and would be up for using Charicature, simply because i already have a a review copy i got and read and, y'know, reviewed ages ago. But the main problem I see with the idea is that regular comics readers are even more dyed in the wool than non-comics readers about what they enjoy in a comic, they are less open to try, or re-try something from a creator they have not enjoyed in the past.

I'm not trying to be negative here, I would love to be proven wrong here. Please, prove me wrong.

So yeah, I'm up for a comics club on clowes' charicature (and one day i may even spell it correctly). anyone else?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
08:33 / 21.06.03
Now Black Hole- there's an indy that fucking rocks. However, I've given up on it until it's finished... it's too frustrating reading an issue every god-knows-when. I tend to find that with a lot of the less "slam-bang" titles- I can read something lightweight, violent and brightly-coloured, and the fact that it's over within 22 pages doesn't bother me- it's a quick hit. Something like Jimmy Corrigan, or Maus, I like to sit and immerse myself in over a period of hours (or days). IF (and it's a big IF) this is also the case with other people, it would explain why such stuff gets little discussion- people aren't reading the same bits of the same comic at the same time as they would be with, say, NXM or something, so their current enthusiasms may not coincide quite so often.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
12:47 / 21.06.03
I LOVE Seth's work, but he's So Fucking Slow it will be a couple years before Clyde Fans is done...and then I'll just say, "wow. That was just...wow."

Agreed. Me too.

I dislike Clowes because he HATES his characters.

I could not disagree more. I think you're thinking of Adrian Tomine. Or you haven't read Ghost World. Or half of Caricature. Or Eightball #22.

I think Chris Ware is about to kill a very good career with another story about how comics fans are dorks.

Maybe not kill it, but definitely take it off the tracks. Agreed.

I'm currently overwhlemed by "Beg the Question" and am glad I waited for the hardcover, as it feels like a real novel with all the corrections.

Really? I've been meaning to buy that. Thanks for the recommendation/reminder.

And I think Chester Brown could beat R. Crumb in a fist fight if Kirby drew it.

Agreed.
 
 
sleazenation
11:19 / 22.06.03
A comic I haven't seen discussed here much is Persepolis by Marjane Satrapi which is a real shame cos it is absolutely fantastic. Its recently been released in English, and I'm almost tongue tied trying to explain just how good this comic is.

Persepolis is a real page turner that I could not put down - to the extent i was reading it in the pub when i probably should have been talking to people (well i did once i had finished it but I couldn't stop before i had read it). Its a memoir of a girl growing up against the background of the Islamic revolution in Iran and the Iran/Iraq war. Its funny, it sad Its scarey and its one of those books that reminds you how GOOD comics can be.

The shear joy of seeing a 13 year-old Marjane attempt to convince the Guardians of the revolution that her Michael Jackson Badge was really a picture of Malcom X cannot be easily explained nor the bleak horror of the brutal repression that went on at that time (and to a large extent still goes on)(click here to see this in the original french version of this page.)
 
  
Add Your Reply