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Underground > Temple >

The special K- Magic or Magick?

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09:21 / 18.06.03

What's people's opinion of the K? I use magic and magick interchangably, usually the K is to distinguish it from stage magic or magic-the blathering. Some people are really against it though ("magic ( I bloody refuse to add Crowley's poncy little K at the end)" Ignatz Mouse) and others use it almost religiously.

I adopted the K from Mage (the RPG) who stole it from Crowley- who may or may not have invented it- but interestingly in the recent edition of the game they dropped it. There's a little sidebar saying "What happened to the special K?" which explains the re-emphasis as a pragmatic move. To most people there's little difference between types of magic, so it's easier to lump them all together under one banner than try to distinguish 'true magick' from 'Hedge Magic' from 'stage magic' from 'Chaos Majik' etc.

Why do you call this thing whatever you call it? Naming is an important magical act, why do you use the term you use?

Kiss My Apocalips

09:50 / 18.06.03

I try to avoid the M-words at large. Create your own name for it: the Art, the Craft, the Doorway, the Whatever-Works-For-You. Create a name and build a system around it. Use it and wonder: To k or not to k will be of lesser proportions at the end of the day.

P.S.: Only thing that ever worked for me was calling it "Mad Chick"...

Kiss My Apocalips

09:53 / 18.06.03

I try to avoid the M-words at large. Create your own name for it: the Art, the Craft, the Doorway, the Whatever-Works-For-You. Create a name and build a system around it. Use it and wonder: To k or not to k will be of lesser proportions at the end of the day.

P.S.: Only thing that ever worked for me was calling it "Mad Chick"...

10:10 / 18.06.03

Magic, because the 'k' gives me the creeps. Simple as that...

10:21 / 18.06.03

Surely that's a reason to use it, Chol?

I tend to use the "K" just out of habit, not out of any serious commitment. Stage magic and sleight of hand is a marvellous art in itself, anyway. (But probably not something a Tarot reader wants to associate himself with, I appreciate, Quantum).

All comes down to what you do - I've said elsewhere on here I'd feel happier with the phrase "person interested in my own process" (P.I.M.P)than magician, seems to fit better, but it's more of a mouthful.

10:23 / 18.06.03

Magick to distinguish it from stage magic. Also magick doesn't get your expectations too high. It doesn't have to be a physical miracle and can be something that only happens in your head, a spiritual transformation of some sort. At least that's my understanding of it, but I'm not that well versed in magick.

11:57 / 18.06.03

Yeah I add the K but just out of habit. I always see people writing that they "use the K to distinguish it from stage magic" I've probably even said it myself, but has anyone ever had a problem with this? I mean anywhere I go online people would probably know which type of magick I meant and it's not like people write it on their CV's do they? When would this ever be an issue?

12:38 / 18.06.03

Bear: When would this ever be an issue?

For example when talking to "normal" people who know only a)stage magic, y'know the bunny in the hat type, or b)magic in fairy tales and fantasy books. They won't understand the word magick either, but it will raise their eyebrows and they will ask what the hell that is, and you will explain it to them, distinguishing it from the Houdini type and the L.O.T.R./H.Potter type.

12:41 / 18.06.03

So do when your talking do you sorta just say the K in a slightly different tone? Sorry I'm sounding like an arse now. I know what you mean I guess I just don't talk to many normal people

13:11 / 18.06.03

Many practitioners of magic are magicians but what are many practitioners of magick? magickians?

13:17 / 18.06.03

Stage magic and sleight of hand is a marvellous art in itself, anyway. (But probably not something a Tarot reader wants to associate himself with, I appreciate, Quantum)
My best friend is a close up magician as well as a P.I.M.P. (

), it's fantastic- nothing like telling someone you're into magick and then transforming a coin into a card, or setting you're wallet on fire or whatever. Magic rocks! Also juggling, any carny stuff really, is great if you're a Tarot reader, people like Gypsy associations.
But when you're talking to someone and they say 'what are you into?' and you say 'magick' and they say 'what, like stage magic?' for the millionth time, you want to find another term. In text you can add the K and it makes the distinction.

13:20 / 18.06.03

"Many practitioners of magic are magicians but what are many practitioners of magick? magickians?"
Mages

I believe the plural noun is 'An Argument of Mages'. Pratchett once wrote 'the natural unit is wizardry is One Wizard' and there's some truth to that, Magic does demand a powerful Ego.

14:28 / 18.06.03

Magic magic magic, why not say sorcery? or my favorite, holographic interface? I'd say the only down side to using the word magick is that anoying question, "duh like stage magic?", d'oh! and you feel to tempted to reply, "no like burn at the stake magick."

15:52 / 18.06.03

I really prefer to avoid the M-word. I like talking about all this sort of stuff, themes that relate to human potential, philosophy, the mind and so on. The M-word is just a distraction and definitely not a hearts-and-minds winner when discussing stuff with "normal" people.
Mind you, I probably get overly-concerned with ways of thinking about this stuff and presenting it…like lately I’ve been thinking and talking about this (ceremonial magick – ahh, fuck I’ve gone and said it), as just a different user interface for operating the mind/body/self and leveraging more of it’s potentiality,…it’s like Windows XP or whatever…obviously another limited metaphor… and the effort to dress it up as some kind of sciencey enterprise that's intellectually respectable to the "normal" person is probably a wasted one.

18:10 / 18.06.03

I use the trem "magick" mainly because the magick I practice is totally derivative of Crowley's work. Although the "it distinguishes it from stage magic" line is valid, note that Crowley also added the K so the word would contain 6 letters, instead of 5. Thus, Magick is in the realm of the Macrocosm, while magic is a microcosmic act.

Who's your Tzaddi?

20:21 / 18.06.03

∞≡∞≡∞≡∞≡∞≡∞≡∞≡∞≡∞≡∞≡∞≡∞≡∞≡∞≡∞≡∞≡∞≡∞≡∞≡∞≡∞
And as an aside - I study SOURCERY as opposed to SORCERY

∞≡∞≡∞≡∞≡∞≡∞≡∞≡∞≡∞≡∞≡∞≡∞≡∞≡∞≡∞≡∞≡∞≡∞≡∞≡∞≡∞

Tryphena Absent

20:43 / 18.06.03

I have a witch-friend who hates 'magick' as opposed to 'magic' but she also has an aversion to Kali, voodoo, chaos... actually anything except earth magic. In other words I suspect she's not to be trusted. These people (mostly sad wiccans) and their light frippery!

I use the 'k' in relation to some forms of this dirty dirty practice and discard it the rest of the time.

10:12 / 19.06.03

So I reckon we all agree- call it what you like ;0) Maybe I'll call it Marvin ("What are you into?" "Marvin" "What, like the paranoid android?" "No, like burn-at-the-stake Marvin")

Kiss My Apocalips

10:23 / 19.06.03

Okay, then. Next topic:
Does the special use of "k" in "fucking" make a difference?
- Yes, to distinguish it from stage masturbation. And by the way..."Fuc!" just doesn´t seem to sound gritty enough.

11:10 / 19.06.03

I use Magick out of habit really although it does have a nice old english look to it. Also like Majik because it make me smell exotic incense although i guess it's a bit D&D.

Genesis P'Orridges' Cultural Engineer is pretty good. Occultural Engineer perhaps.

12:55 / 19.06.03

I never say fucking, making sweet whoopee more accurately reflects the nature of the act. But I always pronounce the K when I'm joking, otherwise I'd be joing.

13:16 / 19.06.03

So do when your talking do you sorta just say the K in a slightly different tone? Sorry I'm sounding like an arse now. I know what you mean I guess I just don't talk to many normal people.

I don't think you are being an arse Bear - i think one's supposed to pronounce it 'mage-ick', stressing the first syllable, so it works conversationally as well as textually. That said, I've never met anyone who says it that way.

"Many practitioners of magic are magicians but what are many practitioners of magick? magickians?"

Mages

[Angry Haus] Magi, you ill-educated fool, the plural is magi. [/Angry Haus] And while we're in the realms of the classical, I've read s'where that there's an ancient Greek word kteis meaning genitals, and that Koth also related to this s'where in the mind of Uncle Al, though I'm not entirely sure about that (i.e. those 'k-' words or Crowley's intentions). But that may be why the 'k' irks you, Chol, because of the Crowleyian misogyny side of things. There is also a line of thinking that 'mage' is gender-specific, i.e. males are 'mages' while women are 'witches', but I've never had any time for that, even if it is historically the case. (I think there's some feeling that the Greek word magos may have originally referred to a male priest.)

And as an aside - I study SOURCERY as opposed to SORCERY

Because it comes str8 from the Source? I myself study Saucery, because I am generally on the sauce whenever I do anything these days. I also call myself an occultist, which is important because that way when my rituals get no results whatsoever I can quite reasonably say, "what d'you think I am, a bloody magician?". I also conceptualise what we do as Mystery Religion, because what's going on is, quite frankly, a fucking mystery much of the time. That said, words like 'spiritual' and 'mystical' seem to sound fairly respectable to mundane folk.

*

14:09 / 19.06.03

I think I need to develop different names for it based on what paradigm I'm occupying at the moment. So far I'm down to "magic" when I'm forced to use the word in an anthropological or scholarly context and "magick" when I'm convinced that I do it and it works, which means I switch on the boards loosely based on my mood. I frequently use "'reality' hacking" when I'm in a chaotick (!) or tecknomagickal mood, and "arcanology" to refer to the study, but not necessarily practice, of different types of The Thing Which We Are Speaking Of. Hmm. Maybe I should add a k to arckanology. As it stands it's ten letters, which is sort of mystick, but eleven is ordinary as cheez whiz.

15:35 / 19.06.03

I think I'll call it electric boogaloo from now on, to remove all doobt that what i'm doing is ultimately absurd, credo te absurdum...

18:34 / 19.06.03

Magick just because thats how we spell it in Swedish.

Spyder Todd 2008

23:52 / 19.06.03

I sort of switch between magic and magick and majik outside of will. It sort of happens. When I talk to people who don't get it and refuse to consider it I just say I'm doing my thing. When I'm talking with Wiccians and strict Earth magi (and what the Hell kind of fun is that, anyway?) I say I'm being an Oracle or Godspeaking, if that is indeed what I'm doing. And sometimes I just say I'm doing magi. Or magick. Whatever.
However, the Atomic Messenger God has now convinced me with his comment. It is now "Burn you at the fucking(note the "k") stake for being a witch" magick.

11:10 / 20.06.03

I'm doing my thing.
That's brilliant, I'm stealing that to use from now on. "What are you into?" "Doing my thing."

14:22 / 20.06.03

From henceforth, sex magic should be referred to as 'fuckery' and sigil magic as 'wankery'.

14:51 / 20.06.03

Interesting. I tend not to talk at all about magick with people who live entirely in the mundane world, simply because most of my friends are truly devout rationalists. I would lose credibility as their token scientist if I were to come out as a magickian...

I think I use the k in a forum like this as an ego thing, just to establish that "of course I know what I'm talking about!" It's a bad habit, and I may drop the k because of it. Or else just use the k for funning - I rather like "what d'you think I am, a bloody magickian?"

hmmm. I may open up "Ye Moderne Laboratory of Practical Arkane and Ockult Studies" if I can find a few folks in this neighborhood to practice with.

22:49 / 20.06.03

I use the K less to differentiate between stage magic as to indicate that what I'm doing is derived or related to some degree to Crowley's work and the Hermetic Arts in general. So, things are magical, but a ritual is a work of magick.

Though really, I loathe it, and tend to swap around between use and not fairly often.

As for what I am, I'll go for either Wizard or Escoteric Technician.

ONLY NICE THINGS

07:48 / 21.06.03

I've never quite understood the "k"; linguistically, I can't see it making any sense at all - magic comes from the French, and thence the Latin magicus, and thence the Greek, μαγικα τεχνη, altohugh I may have missed a step. So, "magik" maybe, but "magick"?

Bill says:

Angry Haus] Magi, you ill-educated fool, the plural is magi. [/Angry Haus] And while we're in the realms of the classical, I've read s'where that there's an ancient Greek word kteis meaning genitals, and that Koth also related to this s'where in the mind of Uncle Al, though I'm not entirely sure about that (i.e. those 'k-' words or Crowley's intentions). But that may be why the 'k' irks you, Chol, because of the Crowleyian misogyny side of things. There is also a line of thinking that 'mage' is gender-specific, i.e. males are 'mages' while women are 'witches', but I've never had any time for that, even if it is historically the case. (I think there's some feeling that the Greek word magos may have originally referred to a male priest.)

Which seemed worth quoting in its entirety, because I may be able to help out a bit... first up, μαγος (magos) is grammatically masculine - you could theoretically have a second-declension feminine form of the same word, but I can't think of an instance offhand. So, it probably does refer to a male, and specifically a male member of the Magian tribe of Media (I think Herodotus and Strabo use it in this sense), Media being a part of the Persian empire after the time of Cyrus, and then by extension a "wise man of the East, a seer, dream-interpreter (Herodotus again)" - you wouldn't call your common-or-garden priest or priestess that; it's an orientalising term for weird Eastern stuff. It then takes on the meaning of a practitioner of magic, although often in the sense of a charlatan.

kteis means a comb, or rake, or the hand with fingers splayed - there is indeed a metaphorical usage as genitalia; it's rare but there. Interestingly, it appears to be applied to both gentitals and ladyparts (also to bivalves, but that's where things ge really confusing). Seems an odd place to take a "k" from, tho' - does Crowley have owt to say on the matter?

20:04 / 21.06.03

IIRC, Crowley definitely mentions using the "k" as an allusion to Kteis, because of it's linkage to female genitala, and this is probably (though I can't remember fer sure), a reference to the worship of Nuit ie. divinity/the universe figured as an enveloping female form, as well as being a coded statement about the sexual content of his system. (I think you'd probably enjoy Crowley's work, Haus, it's loaded with classical allusions).

Also - Crowley's choice is 'cos it's the 11th letter of the alphabet, 11 being the number of magick or "energy tending to change", the "one beyond" the ten of the decimal system / 10 qabalistic spheres. Also, 11 = 5+6 as Chris has pointed out above. 5 and 6 are the key numbers in the Lesser banishing Rituals of the Pentegram/Hexagram, the two rituals you'd probably kick off with as a practioner of his system.

I always found this wealth of symbolism, not so much "true" in any way, but just an amazing example of what you can get fucking around with one little letter. I see most of Crowley’s magicKial formulae in this way – "fascinating" (to me anyway) examples of his creativity.

05:07 / 23.06.03

My opinions on this matter have already sort of gone on record, in the first post. I didn't actually know about the numerological signifigance of the K, which gives it a little more validity than I orginally assumed, though it seems to me to be sort of cheating if you're changing around the spelling of things in an attempt to give them previously non existant associations (Crowleys whole changing from Alexander to Aliester being another case in point, though a case could be made that it was indicitive of a personal magical transformation). In the end, however, i find the K to be somewhat pretentious, and just grates on me in a probably irrational but never the less obnoxious way.

12:57 / 27.06.03

KETAMINE - GOOD FOR NEAR-DEATH EXPERIENCES. THAT'S WHAT SPECIAL K IS ABOUT, INNIT????!!!

13:35 / 27.06.03

Someone had to say it sooner or later...

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