BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


No Such Thing AsTalent

 
  

Page: 12(3)

 
 
Quantum
09:43 / 26.06.03
Nick- my degree was a BSc which I haven't pursued any further, and even worse finished in '97. I'm not claiming to have any expertise beyond that. Three years of study is better than none though, eh.

[Einstein] still took up science late in life and became excellent at it. Isn't that evidence that adults can do that? (Q)
No. It is pretty good evidence that Einstein was able to do that, however.

Einstein was an adult, yes? So at least some adults can do that. (Maybe only the talented ones if you believe in talent)

But I still maintain that looking at education provides some clear indications that practice alone is insufficient.
(BTW, this point has been made to you a few times already and you keep ignoring it.)
Lurid
I'm not ignoring it. What (in addition to practice) dictates skill acquisition? I am using the term 'practice' to include singing to the baby in the crib etc. replace it with experience if you prefer.
I am not saying everybody at school has equal potential in every subject, just that one baby has the same potential as another. By the time we reach school we have already specialised toward the things we like to do, which we are better at, and away from the things we don't like to do. I'm happy to say there is 'talent', as long as we agree it's not genetically determined.

If practice/experience alone is insufficient, there is presumably another factor involved (you are saying) and I would like to hear what that factor is. I suspect you will say Talent, and we'll go round in some more circles...

so, ultimately, though these things are "acquired" and not "inborn" they aren't really "skills," but they do determine how well we can acquire skills and the limits to what we can ultimately achieve. considering all that, we might as well call those aptitudes "talent."

I can understand why people 'see' talent all over the place, and me too- it took several months for my tutor to convince me.Q

you shouldn't have let him convince you. he's wrong. there is such a thing as talent, it's just not (primarily) genetic.
dizfactor
That was what he convinced me of, that there is no such thing as innate talent. I agree with you, these predispositions are developed largely in infancy, I just disagree that it's too late by the time you get to school. You mention the age of three, the creativity experiment described in the left brain/right brain thread indicates creativity is permanently repressed around twelve, but as an adult you can learn creativity as a skill, so I don't see that the absolute cutoff point is realistic.(you can't do it, and you are never, ever, in a million years, going to be able to do it.) I think you can.
the moral of the story: read to your kids, support early childhood learning programs and that sort of thing.
Exactly my point.

I'm thinking it's time to kill the thread, nobody believes in 'born' talent (which is the position I'm refuting) and the debate is now about how early your predispositions become fixed by experience, which is really a neuroscience argument for another time.


(I don't agree that Einstein was just a skilled innovater, he was definitely a skilled physicist as well as being revolutionary. Kuhnian paradigm shifts are led by experts in their field who innovate, not people who are just innovaters.)
 
 
Lurid Archive
10:43 / 26.06.03
So let me get this straight. What you are saying, Quantum, is that adults have different aptitudes and abilities with regards to skill acquisition that cannot be equalised through practice. Your only point therefore seems to be that this isn't genetic and that we shouldn't call this "talent".

Far from going round in circles, you've essentially withdrawn your original remarks. Unless, by "practice makes perfect" you were implicitly assuming the use of a time machine in order to insert the practice into the correct developmental stage.
 
 
Quantum
12:14 / 26.06.03
adults have different aptitudes and abilities with regards to skill acquisition that cannot be equalised through practice. Your only point therefore seems to be that this isn't genetic and that we shouldn't call this "talent".
If you train for ten years to do something, and I train for ten years to do something, we are likely to achieve the same level of competence, given the same level of motivation and same access to teachers, equipment etc.
These aptitudes CAN be equalised through practice. If you stop practicing a skill then a competitor could match and then exceed your skill by practicing.
I also personally believe that you can acquire 'talent' as an adult, although it takes more effort, motivation and time than as a child. Because children learn more quickly than adults. I don't believe your neural structures are as fixed (or fixed as early) as dizfactor asserts, and I think the 'talent' you describe in students is in fact attributable to motivation, self esteem and perceived social role (and a wealth of other factors of course) all of which can be developed, and so are not fixed. But that's by the by, the thread was to disprove the common idea of innate talent.

The predispositions that you describe due to early development are not the common conception of talent- most people consider talent to be an aptitude you are born with that you cannot acquire.

So, the common idea of talent is false. Thus the title of the thread. If I had that time machine I'd go back and call it 'No such thing as innate talent' or maybe just not bring it up at all...
 
 
Lurid Archive
12:35 / 26.06.03
I think the 'talent' you describe in students is in fact attributable to motivation, self esteem and perceived social role (and a wealth of other factors of course) all of which can be developed, and so are not fixed.

This would be revolutionary stuff. How is this to be achieved? I have two students, say, one of which I have naively labelled as talented, the other not. You've already said that the fact that an underachieving student continues to underachieve is no surprise. Even if they work harder. So, what to look for?

My initial tests indicate a similar level of starting knowledge. They are both motivated but the less able one probably works more. You are right that they have, or develop, self esteem issues. Curiously, I only notice this as occurs once the student becomes aware that they are doing worse.

So. How do I turn the poor student into an Einstein? Remember, they are already working harder than the more able student and still not managing to keep up.
 
 
Quantum
12:20 / 27.06.03
I don't think it is revolutionary. Cognitive Psychology is the dominant psychological paradigm and has been for a while, and this is the standard understanding of talent in that paradigm. I would advise you on how to develop the 'less talented' person's ability but I think you're an experienced teacher so it would be futile, I'm sure you know how to teach better than I do. My personal advice to narrow the gap would be some intensive one to one tuition, to explain the parts they're having trouble with and let them overcome their problem with the subject. But I'm not a teacher.
For transparency and accountability- this was taught to me six years ago by this guy John Sloboda, who was my professor for this subject, here's a list of publications by him and others related to the subject. Check it out for yourself.
 
 
Quantum
12:22 / 27.06.03
The most relevant references from the link;

'The acquisition of musical performance expertise: deconstructing the "talent" account of individual differences in musical expressivity. In K.A. Ericsson (Ed.) The Road to Excellence: the Acquisition of Expert Performance in the Arts and Sciences, Sport and Games. Mahwah NJ, Lawrence Erlbaum Associates. 1996.'

'The role of practice in the development of expert musical performance. (with J.W.Davidson, M.J.A.Howe, and D.G.Moore). British Journal of Psychology, 87, 287-309, 1996.'
 
 
diz
13:25 / 27.06.03
If you train for ten years to do something, and I train for ten years to do something, we are likely to achieve the same level of competence, given the same level of motivation and same access to teachers, equipment etc.

generally speaking, this is not true.

These aptitudes CAN be equalised through practice.

again, so you claim.

If you stop practicing a skill then a competitor could match and then exceed your skill by practicing.

in many cases, yes, but not always.

I also personally believe that you can acquire 'talent' as an adult, although it takes more effort, motivation and time than as a child. Because children learn more quickly than adults. I don't believe your neural structures are as fixed (or fixed as early) as dizfactor asserts,

well, you may personally believe that, but the evidence isn't really on your side, here. even the Clinton Administration was six years ahead of you. =)

you might want to start by Googling something like "infant brain devlopment" (thanks to my gf for the suggestion) and reading a few links. a good general interest article for lay people is kept here, and there are links to related articles on the bottom of the page.

you should also see the website for Zero to Three, which is a non-profit dedicated to advancing understanding of infant brain development.

and I think the 'talent' you describe in students is in fact attributable to motivation, self esteem and perceived social role (and a wealth of other factors of course) all of which can be developed, and so are not fixed.

yes, but generally only with years of therapy and with middling amounts of success. you seem to be saying that the barriers here are "only psychological," but there's really no such thing as something being "only" psychological. you can't just wake up one day and just decide to change the way you think about everything. if you could, psychologists would be out of business. identifying a problem as caused by "low self-esteem" doesn't make it go away.

"my life has no meaning. i'm going to kill myself."

"hey, Bob, you shouldn't think like that. i think you're a swell guy, though you seem to have a problem with low self-esteem."

"you think that that's it? that's my only problem?"

"sure!"

"now that you mention it, the intense self-hatred i've been lugging around since childhood does seem pretty irrational! i'm going to stop thinking that way. hey, thanks!"


just because something is "not fixed" doesn't mean that it can just be changed at the drop of a hat, without limits.

But that's by the by, the thread was to disprove the common idea of innate talent.

The predispositions that you describe due to early development are not the common conception of talent- most people consider talent to be an aptitude you are born with that you cannot acquire.

So, the common idea of talent is false.


true enough, but that doesn't mean that all ideas of talent are false, nor does it mean that you can just acquire any skill to any level of mastery with just a little spit and gumption.

Thus the title of the thread.

actually, the title of the thread is "No Such Thing As Talent." period, full stop. i think that, in this thread, a number of people have made a convincing case for an understanding of "talent" which is not "inborn" (but, then again, what is?) but which does have a significant effect on skill acquisition.

If I had that time machine I'd go back and call it 'No such thing as innate talent' or maybe just not bring it up at all...

i for one am glad that you brought it up, even if you weren't able to make your case. it's been a good discussion.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
19:35 / 27.06.03
I have joined this thread a bit late, and admit to not having had time to read it thoroughly, only the first few posts and a cursory glance of the body of the responses...but I'd have to say I (kind of) agree with the abstract. Anybody, I mean ANYBODY can acquire an exemplary skillset given the deication to do so.

At the risk of, er, semanticising the debate, I would say that the difference that makes a difference is inspiration.

And, I would further argue, that does exist. And it's a very different thing from talent.

(Apologies for the outrageous amount of italics here).

Some people just have access to more inspiration than others. Hence Mozart, Beckham, Michaelangelo, (did I say Beckham? Amidst those other examples? Gaaahhhh....)

Not wanting to derail the thread (much), but how does inspiration seperate from the (allegedly) mythical talent??
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
19:39 / 27.06.03
PS - What I mean is that exemplary skills + inspiration = the trad definition of talent.

Exemplary skills + little or no inspiration = Very good at something or or other, but not one of the 'Ones'.
 
 
Quantum
10:10 / 01.07.03
dizfactor- I've pulled some things from that article
"The first five years of life is, arguably, the richest period for learning — a short but spectacular window of time when experiences such as a whisper, a hug and a bedtime lullaby literally change the architecture of the developing brain."

I've no argument with this

"We now have concrete images of the way the brain is hooked up early in life, and it is truly a remarkable period like no other in life," said Dr. Harry Chugani, a neuroscientist at Children's Hospital of Michigan in Detroit."

Yup, we learn more quickly as babies.

"Recent scientific findings have enhanced learning about brain development and proven what may sound like common sense to many: Young children are greedy learners whose brains soak up all the language, information and behavior they experience in the world around them."

sounds like common sense.


"There are brief and early "critical periods" when parts of the brain that control vision and language are open to stimulation, then close forever. There are somewhat longer "sensitive periods" for learning math, music and second languages."

This is what I am interested in. How do they close forever? Why? I don't accept that this cutoff point is so final, nothing I learnt in Neuroscience indicates this kind of absolute shift. Even the same article later says;

(Myelin sheaths enable brain signals to travel 100 times faster) "Myelination continues well into the teenage years, primarily in the frontal lobe where decision making and reason develop."

I understand you might be saying that you have to develop these brain structures as a baby or they won't be developed at all, but most people do develop these structures. People play with their babies and talk to them (thus developing these structures), in the same way they feed them fatty foods (thus allowing myelination).

More;
"One stark example of this "use it or lose it" phenomenon is language... ...the brain starts discarding the excess language learning connections. After 10, learning a foreign language is still possible but more difficult." (my bold)
Most people I know have learned a foreign language after they were ten, remember GCSE French (or whatever)? Although it is more difficult than when you are a child, you can still learn it.

"There is so much at play — genetics, nutrition, peers — nothing is set in stone," Kuhl said.
"But what we do know is this is a critical time when you can help a child be ready for school, be at the highest level of development he or she can be."

I almost completely agree with this article. But I think the differences between babies and adults are much more pronounced than the differences between different adults.



"my life has no meaning. I'm going to kill myself."

"hey, Bob, you shouldn't think like that. i think you're a swell guy, though you seem to have a problem with low self-esteem. Why don't you go get some counselling? Or some prozac? Or take up a hobby? Perhaps you could learn to speak a new language, or become a mathematician or a chess player? I've heard of this thing called Occupational Therapy that might help you..."


"just because something is "not fixed" doesn't mean that it can just be changed at the drop of a hat, without limits"
I'm not saying it can, just that it's not fixed at three years old.

"..attributable to motivation, self esteem and perceived social role (and a wealth of other factors of course) all of which can be developed, and so are not fixed" (me)
My point was that it is a wealth of factors (cf. Kuhl above) including self esteem. 'I'm rubbish at maths' is partially a self esteem issue,

"a number of people have made a convincing case for an understanding of "talent" which is not "inborn" (but, then again, what is?) but which does have a significant effect on skill acquisition."
That's certainly true and infant environment certainly has significant effects on later development. But I could learn Chinese starting tomorrow if I wanted, talent or no.


Mu- Inspiration is essential to excellence, but it can be learnt- you can learn to think creatively, to 'farm' inspiration. I'll be back with a shorter post anon.
 
 
Lurid Archive
12:23 / 01.07.03
Quantum, I can't help feeling that you are confusing a capability with a facility. An absolute, with a tendency. But we've made this point before.
 
 
Quantum
08:50 / 02.07.03
I can't help feeling we pretty much agree, that talent is not innate, that adults display different degrees of ability to acquire skills due to a variety of factors, that infant development heavily affects later life etc. - 'Talents' are acquired as children.
The question of the possible limits of adult learning is for another thread IMO.
 
 
Lurid Archive
08:58 / 02.07.03
The thing is, so much of what you say implies that there is no limit, or barrier in adult learning. Anyone can learn physics, sure. But studying as long as Einstein doesn't make you as good as Einstein - this is readily apparent to specialists.

I really think that by objecting to calling this property "talent" serves to obscure the debate. No "innate talent" is fine, except that, as I said, you do imply that practice is the only relevant factor in skill acquisition and that anyone at any stage can become another Einstein.
 
 
Quantum
14:57 / 02.07.03
no limit, or barrier in adult learning
I'd find it hard to define such a limit. I agree some people are going to find it more difficult than others, and that learning becomes more difficult as you age, but it seems a matter of degree rather than a limit.

you do imply that practice is the only relevant factor in skill acquisition and that anyone at any stage can become another Einstein.
Amount of practice and quality of practice. Given the time and resources, and the absence of an insurmountable biological handicap (colour blindness, dyslexia) why not? Are you saying that some people have got that special something and some just haven't? That's what you seem to be saying;
Some people have a facility that you cannot learn (or if you can, you learn it at such an early age as to make it indistinguishable from talent).
..based on your observation of students. Do you see these same students succeeding in all areas more than their peers, or is their talent domain specific?
I ask because there is another issue here, that of intelligence. Smarter kids learn quicker, so is intelligence a talent, or is talent a side effect of intelligence?

(Aside- it should be noted that I don't believe there is a stable personality trait you can measure called 'intelligence', in fact it is a complex of factors that are very hard to define. But that can be next month's thread and is academic in this context :-))
 
 
diz
16:59 / 02.07.03
Amount of practice and quality of practice. Given the time and resources, and the absence of an insurmountable biological handicap (colour blindness, dyslexia) why not?

because the human brain just doesn't work that way. sorry to burst your bubble.

Are you saying that some people have got that special something and some just haven't? That's what you seem to be saying;

not to speak for lurid, but that's what i'm saying, at least, yes. if you look at two 14-year-olds, one's gonna get it and one isn't, and to a certain point, it doesn't matter how much practice the one who doesn't get it does, he's still just not gonna get it. dig?
 
 
schmee
17:38 / 02.07.03
talent is a myth? i couldn't agree more.

all one needs in my opinion is around 10 years experience in any traditional music program to understand that anyone can learn just about anything. the question lie in the motivation of the learner, the availability of the process, the awareness of the individuals involved, and the educational capabilities they have available (information, teachers, processes).

language is too often discounted as serious filter through which we evaluate our ability to comprehend everything from awareness to intelligence to wisdom at any given point.

so when we compare two 14 year old's reactions to the same set of requiremenets, instead of trying to understand the difference between them in ways that are relevant - we adhere instead to language and focus that may not really explain why the two react differently, but that give us a sense of accurate measurement.

so if one child has spent a lifetime swimming, because they were raised near a lake, while the other raised in a desert never having seen a body of water before - would it be so wise for us to assume that the former was a better swimmer, because they were naturally gifted?

too often social evaluation - especially systematic social evaluation, eg testing in schools - cannot identify the complicated factors in an individual's personal life experience which determine their relationship to a given task.

too often we find that assumptions made about a static concept of ability in an individual not only mispercieves deeper problems, it projects onto the potential student, a sense that they are not going to excel.

so someone who does not speak english very well, or understand WASP culture, may completely misinterpret an IQ test, and be told for much of their young life that because they have a low IQ they should expect to fail a lot, and focus on how not to.

imho, talent/artistry is a matter of awareness and practice (experience).

i think the traditional concept of talent being a static/"magic" thing, is a legacy of a world where humanity's top priority at any given point in education was to simply pick the creme of the crop. there were too many chiefs and not enough indians.

but today we face different problems as large groups of people, and indeed it would appear that ingenuity - or talent/artistry - is what the world really is going to benefit from more than perhaps any other product of society.

given that, it's time we realise that it is in our best interests to cultivate this kind of experience/awareness in all we can, so that as many minds in the world as possible are contributing to the process of generating ingenuity.

segmenting humanity back into structures where awareness is no longer possible - eg in the military model of organization, or the industrial/pavlovian model - then the only talent we'll run into are the freaks of society who refuseto participate, as is traditionally the case with history's greatest artists, creators and problem solvers.

i think if you were to take any child and shower them in a disciplined approach to cultivating real skill in talent, they would become a virtuoso. i think in fact most virtuoso's we encounter, have that very same situation at their disposal. mozart, winton marsalis, and tiger woods are three examples off the top of my head.

these are some exerpts from our organisational doctrines, which relate to the points behind this thread, apologies if they seem disconnected, i'm not trying to advertise anything, however, they do include some other angles of consideration on the issue, namely the dimension of time...


Creativity

“Imagination is more important than knowledge…”
- Albert Einstein

We disagree with the notion that talent is inherent in the human character - a static state of skill, which rarely can be improved or degrade over time. We strongly agree with proponents, e.g. Edward de Bono, that creativity is in fact a skill or ability which does need nurturing and practice to achieve any potential in. schmee has, as one of it’s primary goals, the desire to produce compelling arguments for this position, as well as vast amounts of material which stimulate this skill, and provide direction for those in search of even better creative skill.

We do not think creativity is limited in value strictly to forms of creative expression - but rather that creativity is a skill anyone can greatly benefit from (indeed, we believe it‘s often confused for ‘genius‘), and can suffer from by not addressing. Therefore, we hope to help everyone along in their motivation to get in touch with their creative skill and nurture it to some level of basic competency, but would also seek to help push the bounds of exactly what that means to society in general, and help provide the motivation for anyone to seek further improvement.

- - -

Relativity

“Vote early and vote often.”
- Al Capone

Einstein was a brilliant figure on this subject, and one we’re quick to hoist up as an example of importance (thanks to his association in western civilization with brilliance and creativity specifically). However, Einstein is not solely responsible for this movement and the machinations of its implications, while of course, he remains it’s most famous contributor.

Relativity is not a light subject, nor does it need to be infinitely complicated. It can range in sophistication from the heights of academic study of its physical manifestations, to some of the most simplistic forms of Taoist ideology. It remains, however, an incredibly important tool for achieving awareness in this complicated world - relativity let’s us begin to understand the world's complexities, and how we might misinterpret them or respond negatively to them unnecessarily.

- - -

Education

“I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.”
- Mark Twain

When we say education, we mean the process of education itself. Among schmee’s members are varying degrees of education levels, from masters of arts to no formal education at all. We think most of the world’s educational systems do a great job of educating a small number of people, and thoroughly discouraging the remainder of the world, blessed with the access to such means. However, we do not view those engaged in this as having either the intention, or even malice in most cases, for such outcomes. Rather, we view this the result of institutionalized dogma and the process-oriented thinking of the 20th century, which renders most unable to even comprehend the impact of these dilemmas.


- - -

Time

“Half our life is spent trying to find something to do with the time we have rushed through life trying to save.”
- Will Rogers

Time is the dimension western society has great difficulty recognizing, perceiving, or even functioning within using any degree of malice. It could be argued that finance is simply a matter of understanding the dimension of time. Western society (and more recently, the entire globe, as it adopts western civilization standards and systems), while on the one hand mastering it’s physical reality, often has great difficulty understanding it’s emotional, spiritual and political realities within time‘s own dimensions.

Other truths lie in the investigation of this dimension; one might find deep anthropological truth in studying the rhythms of the world for example - the contrasts in their differences reveal much about the human character. Music would be perhaps the language of time, the artistry of so much music lies in a complete grasp of time’s deceiving properties and dynamics, as well as society‘s misinterpretations of it.

...
 
  

Page: 12(3)

 
  
Add Your Reply