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Any ex-religious people here ever feel guilty about getting into the occult?

 
 
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18:16 / 11.06.03
I do, sometimes, which deep down in my heart I know is ultimately foolish feeling as it's mostly a result of years of conditioning. I was raised Catholic and my parents, while not ultra-religious, made us go to church every Sunday, and religious school, and conformation, etc. When I was in my middle school years I was quite religious, but as I got to high school I really began to have a problem with the church's views on abortion, and women and gays and what not. By the time I was in college and knew I was gay I was pretty much through and just stopped going. Now I only go on holidays, mostly to make my Mom feel good.

Sometimes I get feelings of guilt, which must be all the programming (once you do something for a very long time it gets hard to break, hence the fact I'm still sleeping in a chair after 5 years since my heartburn got bad). Mostly I feel guilty because of my Mother, who lays the whole "you should go to church more" trip on me sometimes. However, she has said that as long as we believed in at least something she didn't mind as much if I didn't go.

The whole thing seems silly when I think about it. The whole notion of heaven and hell. But what if they're right and we're all wrong, as ludicrus as that sounds (how can any one person be right anyway). It seems ever since I've gotten involved in magic, my health hasn't gotten any better (then again, not like it was that great before). I always feel like I'm one step on the verge of a nervous breakdown and I'm still waiting for something wonderful and transformative to happen, but after over a year and a half of practicing magic I've had very little interesting experiances, save a few things here and there. Sometimes I wonder if either I'm doing something wrong or if I'm just wasting my time and should move on to something else.

I'm positive organized religion wasn't for me, but now I'm starting to wonder if magic/occult stuff isn't the answer either. maybe there is no answer and this is all we have. I just don't know anymore.
 
 
cusm
19:16 / 11.06.03
Sypha, I definitely empathise with you here on the background thing. I came from Catholicism myself, and still deal with family backlash at not being real interested in it anymore.

But my experience has been largely that study of magick has given me better insight into the working of reality and of God in a way that I've come to my own definition of spirituality that has replaced the gaping hole the church used to dig into me. When you've developed a personal relationship with the divine, religion is really superflurous, unnecessary. And yea, for me that was more the point of the pursuit than trying to Make Things Happen.

Really, Magick is a means to create your own spirituality. Its tough, as you're largely on your own with it, but satisfying in a way that can not be matched, because you believe in what you believe in for your own reasons and not because of what anyone else has told you to be true. That has been the result of my long road, and its one that is never fully realized, which I think is to some degree the point as well. So all I can really say is, question it all and decide for yourself what you think is right, and stick with that until you find something that is better.

And if this really is all there is, then make the best of it. I for one believe that what we do here really does matter, that life should be lived for this life and not a promise of something to come, and that everything else works itself out ok from there. I do the best I can to live well and assist others to do the same. So whatever happenes down the road, my conscience is clear, and I'll take that before any spiritual inquisition that might await me on the other side. That's my case, and I'm sticking with it.
 
 
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19:30 / 11.06.03
Yeah, you have a point cusm. I'll probably never really quit magic, I just find the whole topic too interesting, even if I never achieve grand results. At the very least I've read lots of interesting books. I think I'm probably just in a really long dry spell. Phil Hine wrote about this... how beginners to magic usually go into it with lots of enthusiasm, then go through a second phase of mass boredom and disenchantment where you lose that enthusaiam... Then (hopefully) it all gets better again. When I first got into it I read as much books as I could, started working on my own grimoire, tried doing something magic everyday, maybe I just burned out. I've slowly been trying to get back into it again, it's been so long even my tarot cards were dusty.

Any depression I have is probably just typical college existentialism. I guess all the shit that happens in the world every day gets me down.
 
 
—| x |—
20:51 / 11.06.03
Not really much at all. But I suppose that I rebelled against the church at a very early age (me mum has some really great stories about my "devilish" behaviour during church--too early for me to recall!).

The way I tend to feel about this is that if you are working with an occult interpretation in dealing with reality and you are trying to work on the so-called "magnum opus," then, if there is a God, He is likely smiling on your efforts. Put differently, so long as we work with the occult and still ascribe to the maxim "Harm none," I think that we are doing "good" work in the world and that God would approve. Of course, I've no good reason to believe this, I merely think it feels right!

Z+
 
 
electric monk
21:15 / 11.06.03
I, too, can sympathize Sypha. The Lutheran church was my particular albatross, but no matter. I just wanted to share with you something my wife said to me once when I was in a deep "religious guilt" funk. She told me that if I were to go back to the church, it would be out of either shame, fear, or guilt. Similarly, anyone who tried to get me to come back to the church would be using that same shame, fear, and guilt to bring me back. I had to admit that that was really not the way I wanted to feel or live my life. I also had to admit that these are not the tools of a loving God, nor would he want his followers to use them.

I'm new to this magic thing too and while I want to assure you that "big things are around the corner", that's certainly not my place. Whatever your path may be, I hope you find it.

Take care.
 
 
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02:53 / 12.06.03
Trust me, I have no intention of rejoining the church, as I see no good coming from that either. I'm just in a dry spell, I guess. I dunno.

Still, deep down I do think there's more then just "this". Call it the 5 dimension, the supercontext, etc. but I have to belief that there is some time of positive world after this one is over.
 
 
Quantum
10:36 / 12.06.03
Pffft, the guilt makes it sexy
 
 
Sonny Winters
11:13 / 12.06.03
[Rant-mode…. activating… can’t……. control…… must…… ELABORATE….. long…….. message…. ALERT ALERT]

Hi Sypha,

I just wanted to respond to your (obviously heartfelt) message with some general thoughts and pep-talkery.
In my experience (I was raised semi-catholic by my Roman Catholic Dad) it seems that the fundamental tactic of the catholic church is to make you feel deeply, bodily guilty about yourself. You are a sinful little creature and that’s just the way it is. This is a mechanism meant to anchor a deep-seated fear and respect for authority in the populous and hence to make it easier to control. Most importantly, it denies that you are capable of thinking for yourself. I mean, who gave this bunch of ageing, celibate, all-male transvestites the right to dictate the way you and I behave, who we fuck, when we can go where, what we are allowed to think about?? The pontif is infallible, so the theory goes. But who apoints the pontif? The council of cardinals. Well, how do we know that they are infallible? And so on; you can go on reasoning like this and become stuck in an infinite regress, with no solution.

You just have to keep reminding yourself of this stuff, you know? You’re a powerful, emotional, sexual, rational, amazing being. No less than a work of art. Anyone who tells you otherwise is a raving cunt. Dogmatists will always be mistaken (woops, was that dogma?) because they are coming from a position of absolute and unmistakeable truth. They have The Truth and anyone who disagrees must be a terrible person or a heretic. The only dialogue that would be possible here is one where you are told what to do. Which, strictly speaking, isn’t even a dialogue at all, (that presupposes that you have some sort of chance to respond/engage). Never mind how ludicrous or repugnant the doctrine you are arguing against, you will always be WRONG beause you are disagreeing at all. The important thing is to avoid being drawn into this game/matrix – full stop. Lift your frame of reference ‘outside’ of it where you can apply another, more coherent way of looking at your experience – perhaps you want to apply a magickal filter, or a humanist one, or a buddhist one or a communist one, or a …….

Although I do realise it’s not as easy as that at times. Hmm. Mainly because you are fighting against your own body and it’s conditioned fear-reflexes. Anyway, while I am loath to suggest that there is an author out there that can ‘make it all better’ for you, but let me suggest someone you might want to think about reading:

It was your physical reaction to the residual cathologuilt that made me think of the books and lectures of Robert Anton Wilson. I don’t know how much you now about ‘Old Bob’, but he was raised an Irish Catholic in 1930’s New York and rebelled against it (in theory, at least) from around his adolescence. However, it wasn’t until he had undergone radical amounts of bio-energetic psychophysical therapy (in his 30’s, I think) that he realised he had never been free of the ‘clutches’ of his catholic past – He realised that he’d been spending much of his time subconsciously preoccupied with the demons and anxieties that had been foisted upon him at childhood by a group of emotionally stunted nuns – essentially he had imprinted the ‘info-phobia’ reflex that tells you that the world is essentially a dangerous, unfriendly sort of place and that you should be very careful ‘out there’. This had, in turn, exacerbated loads of his physical ailments such as post-polio syndrome, conjunctivitis, eyesight problems, muscle fatigue, stomach cramps, all kinds of shit.

Anyway, i’m running on the assumption here that you’re not familiar with Old Bob, so allow me to recommend 'Cosmic Trigger' (there’s threee books, but the first one is probably the most powerful). Wilson expounds in some beautiful writing his own relationship with catholicism, the bio-energetic therapy he underwent (developed by Wilhelm Reich) and subsequant breakthroughs and how this allowed him to activate the magickal and intuitive ‘circuits’ in his brain. The parallels with your situation seem pretty close.

Sorry for the rant, but I can’t seem to write anything in small portions.

Sunny Jim
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:53 / 12.06.03
Well, there's no reason why 'the occult' and religion need to be mutually exclusive, outside of 80s horror films and Christopher Hyatt books.

If you incorporate a bit of Quabbala into your general conceptual framework it can be quite a straightforward process to adopt the much derided 'christian conditioning' and turn it into something useful and interesting - rather than setting up a false either/or dichotomy and giving yourself an ontological enemy to fight.

In Quabbala, the highest sphere KETHER can be considered as GOD and every other sphere on the Tree is an emanation of that principal, in increasingly denser forms until it reaches MALKUTH, which is matter - the physical world. In this sense, everything is GOD and GOD is everything. Which seems to me like a much healthier and more plausible concept than the vague notions of some almighty bearded guy in the sky organising an international army of old men in black dresses to guilt-trip people into signing songs about him in beautiful old buildings.

Alan Moore has a really interesting take on the concept of Christ, which he brings out in discussions about the Sephiroth TIPHARETH (appears in 'Promethea', and on the 'Snakes & Ladders' recording). Christ as the Gold of the World, the light inside of us all. The allegory is that humanity took this light and nailed it to the cross like a dog, like it was dirt. But the light still shines and forgives - even when we're at our absolute worst, the light is still there with us, TIPHARETH is a part of us even when we're doing the woprst things that humans are capable of - so there's always light, there's always hope.

Which for me, is the first time I've actually 'got' the whole Jesus thing. I've never really been able to get a proper handle on it as a 'mystery' before, but there it is - a beautiful occult parable.

If there actually was a historical Jesus, then he is likely to have been a magician and revolutionary. Jesus kicked the money lenders out of the temple. He was all about shaking things up and experiencing GOD directly, not through a corrupt and antiquated priesthood.

Christianity has had a massive impact on the culture of the world for the last 2000 years - and it makes no sense to me to just reject every aspect of it out-of-hand because of the grisly unpalatable bits that have acrued around it. Pagans threw Christians to the lions long before the inquisition. I don't think it's profitable to continue this cycle just because we can. Makes more sense to consider the interesting and useful aspects of Christianity and evolve them into something new.
 
 
Mr Messy
11:59 / 12.06.03
You’re a powerful, emotional, sexual, rational, amazing being. No less than a work of art. Anyone who tells you otherwise is a raving cunt.

That is beautiful. Really beautiful.
And it is the truth too.

I'd like to say more, but I really should be working now, and besides what more needs to be said.

Still, deep down I do think there's more then just "this".

That is your instinctive, intuitive, felt sense in operation. I reckon you just need to perfect a way of filtering out the crap that has been pushed upon you, from this.

Good luck. And keep talking to us.
 
 
Secularius
17:21 / 12.06.03
I wonder why so many occultists are ex-catholics. Aleister Crowley and Robert Anton Wilson for example.

I don't see why you have to look at it as so blasphemous. Qabala, correctly spelled Kabbalah, is devoutly practiced by modern Hasidim Jews. Practical Kabbalah, or magic, was practiced rightfully before the destruction of The Temple. What do you think Moses was doing when he turned his staff into a snake? And haven't you read anything about Gnosticism (I presume you have)? Jesus started it all (sort of)!
 
 
Seth
17:22 / 12.06.03
Gypsy Lantern: Spot on.

Most of my techniques have their roots in Christianity. I learned more about meditation, contemplation, different types of prayer, glossolia, and prophecy in Church than I have anywhere else, as well as a complex system of filters and etiquette so that I know when and how to operate. My Dad is a Christain mystic who has taught Charismatic prophecy to tens of thousands of people worldwide: I couldn't have wished for a better training in the esoteric. Most recently, it was my church's interest in NLP that make me investigate more.

The basis of my Shamanic techniques were also founded in church, through my natural inclination to ecstatic states through drumming (I learned to play in a church worship/ritual context, I've been doing it for the better part of a decade). In fact, I remember having a conversation with a certain Mr Tuppan via e-mail in which we broadly agreed that there was a large crossover between Shamanism and the Charismatic movement. Remember: at it's edges, any seemingly monolithic religion presents all kinds of fun mutated forms. Look at the Catholic/Voudoun syncretism, or the Santo Daime churches, or the revival of Gnostic ideas, or the Catholic mystics. Religion is a far broader beast than most of this discussion dares to realise.

And no, my experience of Christianity wasn't wholly positive - I've probably encountered much worse than anyone else here. However, I still define myself as Christian. My faith has been modified, but the essence remains the same. I deliberately didn't reject my faith: I filtered everything, held onto the good and chucked the things that didn't stand testing. It's been hard, but I don't feel guilt because I treated the development of my faith, knowledge and practise as an organic process. I didn't reject, rebel or recant. Not very glamourous, I know - but I reckon it's a more stable long term basis on which to operate.
 
 
Wyrd
17:31 / 12.06.03
I was raised Catholic, but had totally rejected it by the age of 16.

I've never felt guilty about being involved in a spiritual path that's different to the religion I was rasied in. I don't feel guilty about doing magic either.

Catholicism of course is soaking in magical rituals, as it's not exactly a non-mystical tradition.

If you do feel guilty at times, then it's time examine where it's coming from - what part of your Catholic programming is producing this reacting? Then deprogramme yourself if you think you want to be rid of this kind attitude. It's a good idea to be aware of your background thinking, and any conditioning that crops up from your childhood. You wouldn't want your sub-conscious to attempt to sabotage your spiritual path.
 
 
penitentvandal
18:02 / 12.06.03
Yeah, I was raised Catholic too. Funny, that. Interesting piece in this month's FT on all that Buffy-inspired mini-wiccan stuff, suggesting that it mostly appeals to left-footers because of all the candles and incense...

I think of the religions vs. magick argument like this:

Imagine a spacecraft crashes in Washington DC, say on top of the Lincoln Memorial, then time stops for some reason. You can still perceive, though, so you can see the spacecraft, but only from one angle. If you're really close to it, at the right angle, you can see a lot of it, but you can't see the whole thing. If you're further away, you can see even less. If you're really far away, maybe you can't see anything and are just a bit freaked out by the time-stoppage and have a vague sense that something is wrong, or possibly you can see it on TV, but in a badly reproduced form and still (because the film can't move) from one angle.

Now imagine that you - but only you - have the ability to move around and take in whatever bits of the object you want. You can zoom in on it, or look at it from far away. You can examine the exhaust pipes, the sleeping quarters, the chemical toilets. You can meet the surviving crew members and have a chat with them, or fight them, or maybe even have sex with them, or get rectally probed by them, or share some pancakes, or whatever. You can even study the spaceship's construction if you want, then go away and build your own.

The first example defines the relationship to 'God' that I feel most dogmatically religious people have. They're looking at the same thing as us, but from only one angle, from one frozen moment in time. The second example is a more 'magickal' relationship with 'God', where you can actually govern the terms of your interaction with it and learn what you want of it. The difference between 'us' and 'them' is one of perspective, but ultimately we're looking at the same thing.

I didn't explain that very well, did I?
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
23:10 / 13.06.03
Sypha: But what if they're right and we're all wrong, as ludicrus as that sounds (how can any one person be right anyway).

I was raised Episcopalian(which is just liberal Catholicism)but by 4 years old I was questioning how the Bible worked ("How do you rise from the dead? Dead is dead!") These days, I often ask myself "What if I'm wrong?" too. But I realized something. I am always open to the idea that I could be wrong, I could have screwed up. But, if I could be wrong, and as a human being, I am the most important part of my universe, then everyone else could be wrong too. Everyone might have screwed up! So I just kinda assume that everyone is wrong, and it doesn't really matter that much. I think that as long as you're doing what you want, and you aren't hurting anyone else, that's great.

Gpysy: If there actually was a historical Jesus, then he is likely to have been a magician and revolutionary. Jesus kicked the money lenders out of the temple. He was all about shaking things up and experiencing GOD directly, not through a corrupt and antiquated priesthood.

Right, exactly. Jesus was a radical, an anarchist, and a hippie. Hardcore christians don't like it when I say it, but it's basically in there. And what's not in there is all in the Gospel of Thomas. He was against organized religion and government. Which is why dogmatists often contradict themselves...
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
23:39 / 13.06.03
Mind you, I often sympathize with Lucifer Morningstar, and find the Judeo-Christian Yawehh to be a sexist perverted bastard. So this could possibly lead to certain feelings I might have towards Christianity.
 
 
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02:19 / 14.06.03
Well, Jello Biafra DID have a spoken word track called "Jesus was a Terrorist" (or something along those lines).

Anyway, thanks for all the comments, though I can't say I'm surprised by all the ex-religious people here.

Sonny Winters: I've read some Robert Anton Wilson interviews and "The Illuminatus Trilogy" (which I loved) but I've yet to read "Cosmic Trigger" (though I've been planning to). I'll definetly try to order it now. Recently I've been doing research on Reichian therapy so that might be interesting (William S. Burroughs knew a lot about Reich). I've been fascinated by some of Reich's ideas like charactor armor and things like that (not to mention Grof's BPM theory). I think it may be things like these that'll help me end these nagging physical symptoms that have plagued me since the end of high school.

Son of Zodak: I've been researching Gnosticism for quite awhile now, ever since I saw "The Matrix" and got into "The Invisibles". I wouldn't call myself a gnostic but that whole way of thinking is fascinating, especially the whole thinking for yourself, humans are not to blame for sin kinda thing.

I should say it's not like I'm wracked with guilt 24/7, only every now and then, more for my Mom then any "God". I don't believe in some old bearded diety in the heavens (and just the fact it is named "God" reeks of unoriginality).
 
  
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