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Underground > Switchboard >

Gun control: a good idea? Or what?

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13:14 / 19.02.02

[stupidly provocative] Perhaps one's 'gun-phobia' is excised along with one's foreskin? [/stupidly provocative]

13:56 / 19.02.02

Don't. You'll distract the morons in the audience.

14:02 / 19.02.02

(Sorry. For those interested, we're in the Head Shop discussing routine male circumcision, something else which is seen as an oddity outside the US. Come see.)

Back to pretend willies. Ignore the man behind the foreskin.

15:45 / 19.02.02

I really hate to say this but "guns don't kill people, people kill people". Guns are just a useful tool to get the job done.

If you're going to outlaw guns, you may as well outlaw stupidity and mental illness. Give people a test at 18 and if they don't pass kill them. Oh, and while we're at it lets use all the criminals on death row as human shields in war.

This gun control thing has been going on for as long as I can remember. It still hasn't gotten anywhere and it probably won't get anywhere in the near future.

As for switchblades being illegal, it has something to do with the blade coming out due to pressure appiled to a button or other device or opening due to gravity. There are some states in which they're perfectly legal but you can't transport them over state lines or mail them anywhere.

[ 19-02-2002: Message edited by: Trijhaos ]

15:56 / 19.02.02

quote:Originally posted by Trijhaos:

As for switchblades being illegal, it has something to do with the blade coming out due to pressure appiled to a button or other device or opening due to gravity.

Err.. I'm sure that's a description of a switchblade. It doesn't say WHY a switchblade of that description is illegal. Might as well say that a gun is a tube of metal that fires a metal slug, and that is why it is legal. In fact, that seems to be what you are saying.

15:58 / 19.02.02

quote:I really hate to say this but "guns don't kill people, people kill people". Guns are just a useful tool to get the job done.Statistically untrue, arrant, pro-gun nonsense. I reiterate: check the figures.

More importantly, perhaps, consider the implication of the gun in society.

quote:If you're going to outlaw guns, you may as well outlaw stupidity and mental illness. Give people a test at 18 and if they don't pass kill them. Oh, and while we're at it lets use all the criminals on death row as human shields in war.Irrelevant rantings or ignorant noise. Nothing here to argue with. Must try harder.

quote:This gun control thing has been going on for as long as I can remember. It still hasn't gotten anywhere and it probably won't get anywhere in the near future. A sad truth we owe in large part to imbeciles like you who propound cant, faulty reason, and macho crap. Engage with the issue, stop dodging the facts.

quote:As for switchblades being illegal, it has something to do with the blade coming out due to pressure appiled to a button or other device or opening due to gravity. There are some states in which they're perfectly legal but you can't transport them over state lines or mail them anywhere.Drivel. Guns have similar shortcomings, and yet you're happy with them. Switchblades have bad cultural karma; your precious guns make you feel like Mel Gibson, but switchblades are a darky's weapon, and those need to be outlawed.

Please stop wasting time. Find some decent arguments or admit you'd just rather not discuss this.

[ 19-02-2002: Message edited by: Dao Jones ]

16:14 / 19.02.02

Where do you want me to start then?

According to a study conducted by Prof. John Lott of the University of Chicago, showed that by adopting "shall issue" concealed carry handgun laws, 31 states have reduced murders, on average, by 7.7 %, rapes by 5 %, aggravated assaults by 7 % and robbery by 3%. If those states that did not permit concealed handguns in 1992 had permitted them back then, citizens would have been spared approximately 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes, 60,000 aggravated assaults.

Or how about the study mentioned in the "Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology", Volume 86, 1995 that there were over 2 million protective uses of the firearm and that the mere brandishing of the gun deterred criminals?

Is that good enough for you or am I still wasting time?

16:44 / 19.02.02

Emphatically not good enough.

For example, latest official data from Australia shows a marked reduction in gun-related crime and injury following recent restrictions on the private ownership of firearms.

Further, the difference in gun crime between Canada and the US, which is substantial, can largely be attributed to gun-ownership.

You may also wish to look here for a chart showing how guns filter through a society and their eventual fate.

The stats you quote are deeply questionable. 1. which of these crimes would not take place if the would-be perpetrator did not have access to firearms? 2. murder and rape may decrease - how about deaths from self-defense? Not just in the context of the anomalous 'attacking stranger', but the far more common relative or friend who assaults you. 3. How many extra suicides and accidental deaths?

Lastly, how much damage does it do to a society and how many deaths are caused indirectly simply by the justifications of guns and gun use which are made? "He was hitting my wife, and I warned him, and he kept going, so I shot him."

Sound familiar?

Your case is propaganda and hot air. As I said, try harder.

17:00 / 19.02.02

The Gun Issue.

Ask yourself this; Why do you want a tool designed to kill other people? For self-defence? Check the stats (again). Possesing a gun increases dramatically your chances of being shot.

"It's just a hobby". Well get another hobby FFS! If it's just a hobby then it's not THAT important is it?

Gun Control. Mis-direction by the gun lobby me thinks. Will make little difference IMO. Out-right banning is the only way. You really don't need a gun.

"Gun Licencing stops bad/insane people getting hold of them." Erm, a large proportion of people develope mental illnesses at some point in their lives. ie. they are not born insane, they become so later in life. So if there are guns there will always be mentally unstable people with access to them.

Suicides. I can honestly say that if I'd had access to a gun when I was younger I wouldn't be here now. Depression is a terrible thing and killing yourself is surprisingly hard.

Having said all that. I can't see the US changing in any significant way on this issue for a long time to come. Ganesh is right, you should also check out the Circumcision tread in the Headshop. I wonder if the two issues are related? (in that they seem to be popular in America)

The resistable rise of Reidcourchie

17:36 / 19.02.02

I'm British, circumsized and don't have the urge to own a gun (or for that matter a foreskin).

In terms of the constitution in this argument. My understanding is that militias were constitutionally guaranteed as a sort of oversight committee for both internal/external oppressive regimes. If this is true, are the pro gun ownership people also pro militia?

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

15:03 / 20.02.02

quote:Originally posted by Trijhaos:
Look at switchblades. They're supposedly illegal but I know a couple places I can go and get one.

I could have sworn I said something about this. Ah well...

Switchblades are not illegal to own in the States, and certainly not in Tennessee. It's illegal to carry them in public, due to some concealed weapon laws. Something about the blade being concealed, I think.

Interesting note: Single-armed people are exempt from this law. At least in Tennessee, anyway. It's also so legal to commandeer someone's car as long as it's in motion in Tennessee, along with eating your roadkill. And yet I call it home...

Trijhaos: you've now got the attention of Dao Jones, who (as I think you know by now) will not be nearly as soft with you as I was. Don't try to bullshit him, he'll call you on it.

Dao Jones: Keep in mind this guy has apparently spent a good deal of time in the american south, were children are taught at a very early age the neccessity of exercising the ownership of guns. Which is not to say that it's the right way to go about things, but you can't blame a guy for believing something he's been told since birth. Yes, his arguments are weak and his sources are questionable, but maybe you could go a little easier on the guy.

[ 20-02-2002: Message edited by: Johnny the zenarchist ]

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

15:24 / 20.02.02

Also, this arguement seems to be lopsided. If anyone else wants to argue on the "Guns are okay" side, please do. I repeat, no one is going to jump you as long as your arguments are well thought-out.

16:08 / 20.02.02

Here is a summary of state knife laws, and switchblades are indeed illegal here.

I'll agree most of my arguments are weak, but calling the one source I actually pulled out is kind of harsh. Its a reputable journal, its not like I said it came from a magazine called "Trigger Happy Freaks Of America".

A good point has been brought up.

Does geographic location have anything to do with the way people see and judge guns?

18:53 / 20.02.02

quote:Originally posted by BioDynamo:
Sorry? Is this correct? In your country it is totally legal and acceptable to own weapons that kill with very high certainity over large distances, but not legal to own a small blade, only because of that blade's fuunctioning? What is the logic, reason and sense in this? That's just dumb. Or strange, maybe.

This was a point repeatedly made by Bill Cosford, the late Miami Herald film critic and fireworks enthusiast.

Where I live, it's easier to buy this:

(available at some department stores and most pawn shops, let them read your driver's license and you're in business)

Than this:

(which requires you find a remote warehouse, then sign a release saying you're using them to scare birds from your fish hatchery - in other words, perjure yourself. In other states, they're not even for sale.)

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

23:23 / 20.02.02

quote:Originally posted by Trijhaos:
Here is a summary of state knife laws, and switchblades are indeed illegal here.

You'll note that he states in the opening paragraph the warning that this is not an official website, merely what he has "gleaned" from his reading and hearsay. Not the most reputable source. No offense to your web-fu, but I'll trust the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation. It could have changed since the two years I inquired, but I haven't heard.

07:49 / 21.02.02

quote:maybe you could go a little easier on the guy.I don't go easy. Ever. I don't back down and I never quit. I have been known to apologise afterwards. I only coddle total idiots, and this guy isn't one.

Trijhaos: I am harsh. But I'm a great deal less harsh than a .38.

Your journal is 'reputable', but that is in itself no guarantee of probity. Also, it's a law-enforcement rag, so its consituency is overwhelmingly armed and pro-firearms.

When you look at stats, especially in an area this loaded (pardon the pun) you have to ask what the exactly it shows, and what are the assumptions it carries. More importantly, what does it not show, which you might assume that it does...

Finally, with guns, it all comes back to one rather crude equation; one which all these facts and figures seek to present in their own way:

The gun is a means for producing damage to physical objects in a way which does not require great consideration, effort, personal strength or skill.

More guns means more opportunities for physical destruction, and less waiting.

When I told you to think about Batman and Superman, I wasn't kidding. They're absolutely at the heart of your country. I think I'm going to start a thread on this later.

07:49 / 21.02.02

Good points. I just don't understand why when gun control is brought up, EVERY gun has to be banned.

If it were just handguns, I'd be more than happy to sign a petition to get them banned. Hanguns have no practical use other than murder.

Hunting rifles, on the other hand, may help people keep their family fed. Sure there aren't many people who hunt to help augment what little food their paycheck brings in, but there are a few. If by outlawing guns, you take food of the mouths of these hunter's families then I'm going to be against outlawing guns.

10:19 / 21.02.02

So you're cool with banning handguns?

If there's a genuine need for hunting rifles to feed a family in a developed country, something's seriously wrong, though.

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

14:47 / 21.02.02

I haven't seen the need exactly. Some families do get by with hunting and selling most of the meat to a butcher, but it's not as if they can't get jobs somewhere. It's probably much easier, and maybe more enjoyable for the hunters, but it's not as if they would all starve to death if they weren't allowed to use rifles or shotguns. They could pull a Ted Nugent and bow hunt. Now that takes skill.

15:11 / 21.02.02

Forget the bow too. Do it the old fashioned way, chase after the prey, jump on its back, slit its throat, and ride it into the ground.

As for handguns. Yeah, I'm cool with banning handguns simply because when you hear about children taking guns to school it's almost always a handgun. You never hear how little five year old Bobby carried a rifle longer than he is tall to school and threatened to shoot the teacher.

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

15:14 / 21.02.02

"Alright, Ms. Teacher, one move and I'll blow you away with this authentic 18th century French flintock rifle. Well, wait. Who's got some flint? I need some cotton, too."

We're The Great Old Ones Now

16:01 / 21.02.02

[Rowan Atkinson] Thank you for purchasing this Bowyer-Duncan 5 pounder cannonette...[/ra]

Mister Remington Finn

16:21 / 21.02.02

old joke, but it show a deeper truth:
In America, gun control means using two hands......

We're The Great Old Ones Now

17:58 / 21.02.02

On what?

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