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Comic Film Adaptions

 
 
All Acting Regiment
12:42 / 08.06.03
My opinion: I DISLIKE stupid high gloss, dumb ass hollywood mass produced shit films. I LIKE intelligent-ish comics. I HATE it when people make a stupid high gloss, dumb ass hollywood mass produced shit film out of a comic that I like.

What really makes me angry is the feeling that thousands of people will see the film, and, for example with Hellblazer, say, "Oh right, yeah, Constantine, american" when HES OBVIOUSLY ENGLISH YOU PRATS.

Or that interesting characters get turned into cliches and theres no ideology or wisdom, just dumb fight after dumb fight.

And the dickheads on movie review shows who say, at the end iof a review, "yes, its based on a comic, comics are ".

In particular im pissed about the hellblazer and possible preacher films.

So, ya dig?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
12:53 / 08.06.03
The word is "adaptation."

Cut people some slack, man. The film companies have a lot of money at stake, and they're just trying to make a movie that they think people will like and want to see - the intentions are ultimately very good. They have a responsibility to the studio to make money, which is a pretty intense pressure, particularly in some studios that may not have had a big hit for a year or two and may be losing money.

No matter what, you really can't expect any kind of adaptation to be better than the source material, though it does happen sometimes. Film and comics, or film and books - they are different mediums with different creative processes with different audiences, and some things just don't translate. Sure, making John Constantine an American may be really lame and miss a central part of the character's appeal, but are you gonna do? That movie probably won't do well, so who gives a fuck? Even if it does, it doesn't change the comics, so what's the big deal? You already said that you like comics more than Hollywood movies.

And seriously, anyone who thinks that the epic 70-something issue sprawl of the Preacher series could easily be adapted to a two hour film without some very serious compromises is just delusional.
 
 
Mystery Gypt
22:00 / 08.06.03
and then of course on the other hand, thank god for Ghost World and hey this new American Splendor thing looks amazing. Plus 99% of this board loved Spiderman. And X-men.

wait, what was the question?

oh right, adaptation. I'm curious what people think about the difference between comic adaptations and novel adaptations. I mean, just off the top of my head, really quick, LA Confidential, Blade Runner (which no one ever ever ever no matter how into sci-fi books they are accuses of being inferior to the book!), The Big Sleep (going way back), Exorcist, The Ring, 2001, Clockwork Orange, Godfather... hell, there's so many films based on novels that are as good as the novel if not a vast improvement, and spurious comparison aside these example are simply good movies.

of course, the endless list of awful movies based on novels, combined with the above, suggests that there is nothing inherantly degrading to film in the process of adaptation. but perhaps there is something in comics -- though i'm willing to bet it is industry, not form, driven.

interesting link: based on comic on imdb.
 
 
fluid_state
01:40 / 09.06.03
What flux said about an adaptation. In all caps. Twice. That being said, a lot of these adaptations seem ridiculous to me, but others love them (Ghost World coming to mind). If they get people to buy the comics, then I say "Good job" and go read more comics.

Hellblazer will be an interesting one, though. I wonder/fear that it'll signal a huge change in the comic itself; the fear mostly comes from the "editorial streamling" of a comic to fit a film. However, they could do a lot worse than to kill/disappear Constantine and continue the comic with an entirely new protagonist. There's only so many "Magic English Bastard" stories you can tell.

It seems a lot of what derails an adapation is executive ego. The current battles over the Superman film (current in that they've been going for YEARS, with no end in sight) are ludicrous; a few dozen executives vying for a bulletproof feather in their caps, often destroying the source in their zeal. In the planning, they've gone from Burton's Batman to Schumacher's, without releasing a film yet.

and come to think of it, there's nothing better than a (standard superhero) comic book to source a "stupid, high gloss, dumb ass hollywood mass produced shit film". From an executive point of view, you'd have a fanbase, hooks into the children market, merchandising and marketing nearly sewn up, storyboards and script treatments on demand.
 
 
Simplist
02:45 / 09.06.03
Blade Runner (which no one ever ever ever no matter how into sci-fi books they are accuses of being inferior to the book!)

Blade Runner's kind of a special case, in that the film bears less resemblance to the book than almost any other adaptation I can think of--the acknowledgement should probably have said "inspired by" rather than "based on", as the scriptwriter(s?) kept only the barest outline of the book's premise and a few character names (even ditching the title for an invented term that didn't appear in the novel), and built an essentially original story around those elements. And the result was fairly inspired in that particular case. In fact, BR is a good example of an adaptation taking enormous liberties with the source material (usually a big no-no as far as fans are concerned) and turning out significantly better than a more faithful attempt probably would have. Consider: if there'd been an internet when BR was in development, the leaked script would surely have instigated many thousands of megabytes of angry online fulminations and possibly a letter writing campaign by PKD fans. That said, I cringe right along with the masses when I hear about Kal-el as the prophesied messiah of an intact Krypton in the allegedly upcoming Superman film, and nearly joined in the letter writing campaign myself (though I skipped the vaguely homophobic online petition). So when is it ok, do you think, to take liberties, and when not?
 
 
videodrome
04:21 / 09.06.03
American Splendor is friggin' fantastic. I'm cooking an essay on it now, and figured I'd spam the film forum when it got closer to release (August, in LA and NYC) but can safely say that anyone who was into Ghost World, Crumb or Adaptation will dig it. And I was surprised to discover that the directors were sort of given the project, and had no familiarity with the book previously. It turned out so well...
 
 
videodrome
04:27 / 09.06.03
To address Sapient's question, it's always OK to take liberties.

If a project is commercial, then whatever liberties are deemed necessary to make the enterprise a success must be taken. An artistic approach, on the other hand, requires a point of view, as working without one can only produce imitation. The subjectivity of point of view will almost always demand liberties be taken.

Of course, film is a mix of the two so it's simply going to happen. Let it go.
 
 
diz
05:30 / 09.06.03
even ditching the title for an invented term that didn't appear in the novel

actually, strangely enough, they didn't invent the title. it was just from another screenplay, which was completely unrelated to both the book and the movie.
 
 
doctorbeck
08:32 / 09.06.03
might i add lord of the rings to the list of films that are far better than the book?

cut out the twee olde englande stuff, songs, tom bambadillo, tortured dialogue and pump up horror and fighting.quality.

a
 
 
All Acting Regiment
15:51 / 09.06.03
Ho hum. I don't know where all you lot are writing from. I'm an english pigdog so we're always sarcastic about american films and culture in general. Not that we're any better- look at "human traffic" or any other "Lets rip off trainspotting" film that came out in the 90s. Or even the fact that we enslaved several million souls when we had an empire. um. Thats me in a corner.

What I guess I didn't put across was that no-one seems to have been truly inspired by a comic to make a great, provocative film. look at preacher. okay, preacher goes on violent swathe across america, destroying iconic images of said country. There you go...he doesnt need to be called jesse, there doesn't have to be a vampire, but its still a good rough basis for a film- see that thread about the blade runner adaption.

What i wouldn't want to see was "lets cut out the difficult bits, keep the violent bits in and have him stop off at mcd's after every killing spree, and then claim that it's anything to do with the original".

And LOTR? Well I always thought that the "twee olde england" bits were only present in the shire, and that they represented the opposite of the dangerous world outside. And a big troll isn't horror, horror is the rape scens from Clockwork Orange.

yah.
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
03:30 / 10.06.03
Although I fully understand (whilst not always in agreement with) the need to make alterations in an adaptation for commercial/artistic reasons, the whole Constantine debacle fully baffles me (as I never seem to tire of telling anyone within earshot). What, exactly, is the point of making a film about a character with a relatively small cult audience and discarding absolutely everything essential to the character, thereby alienating the very audience who is already aware of said character's existence? This isn't a huge brand name, like Superman, that's going to net much in the way of merchandising dollars. Nothing at all would be lost in cutting all reference to the character of John Constantine from the film, and Warner Bros. would stand to gain the fan audience that will otherwise possibly be strongly opposed to paying good money to see the character wasted.

Fans of the film who may be tempted to try the comic will be misled by a product that bears absolutely no resemblance to the film they enjoyed, unless (as was suggested as a possibility above) the comic is altered to suit the film, in which case the pre-established audience will be lost. That tack would almost certainly be in vain, as the majority of people checking out the comic in the wake of the film would be a fairly short-lived audience. I know this isn't really a concern of Warner Bros., though, since DC is pretty small potatoes to them, so I wouldn't be surprised if that were the short-sighted approach they wind up taking.

None of which would get me quite so worked up if I didn't feel, at least in terms of potential and what has been done w/the character periodically in the past, that John Constantine is one of the stronger and more fully-realized characters in comics today. To drain the character of everything central to him is a slap in the face to those writers who have put a lot of effort into making him such a rich character. Nothing about the creation of this film makes the slightest bit of sense to me, and it seems (at least in terms of anything resembling creative integrity) like nothing but a bad idea. But, hey, it'll have Keanu in it and someone at Warner Bros. will make some bank, so what does it matter...
 
 
Seth
06:16 / 10.06.03
I hope this isn't a dumb question, but what exactly will be lost from John Constantine's character by making him an American?
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
06:59 / 10.06.03
Honestly, making Constantine American is but one of many problems I have w/this film. But since you asked... Transferring (for example) High Fidelity from the U.K. to Chicago wasn't that big of a deal because the story wasn't about being British. England just happened to be the background for the story being told. The character of John Constantine, however, is inexorably tied to Great Britain. Having just finished re-reading Delano's run, for instance, it occurs to me that Constantine is utilized at least as often as a commentator on British life as he is as a magical practitioner. It seems essentially wrong to make this character, in particular, an American. Do yourself a favor and read the series if you haven't already. It's got rough patches, to be sure, but it's been fairly topnotch for a lot longer than most comics tend to be. But you'll know exactly what I'm talking about if you do.

Besides the British argument: Constantine is meant to be a bit rough around the edges, a fairly haunted man. Nothing in Keanu Reeves' body of work thus far gives me any indication that he can convincingly pull this off. I honestly can't think of a worse choice for this role off the top of my head. The screenwriters (of course there's more than one) are responsible for such fantastic fare as Suburban Commando and The Glimmer Man. And let's not even get into the Hellblazermobile (given that it's been a bit of a running gag throughout the entirety of the series that Constantine does not and, in fact, can not drive a car). I have no confidence that this movie will be anything more than a total joke and yet another waste of celluloid. But you'd probably already figured that out.
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
07:06 / 10.06.03
From Zap2it.com: "(Keanu)'s hot in the role, he's perfect for Hellblazer because he has that innocent quality about him, a bit naive, but someone you like," (producer Lauren Shuler)Donner says to Zap2it.com. "He's a bit like Tarzan, or a hero like that. But this time, he sends demons to hell."

For anyone who's a fan, that quote really should say it all, I think.
 
 
Jrod
10:50 / 10.06.03
Good Lord!!!
That's fucking awful! Keanu as Constantine, at his naive, dopey best. I might be sick.

Constantine was always far from naive and innocent. Maybe the flick should be called Heckblazer, but otherwise has nothing to do with the comic.

So, how about "The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen"? Any hope for that one?
 
 
mr Squiggle
13:05 / 10.06.03
Hollywood are going to do whatever they think is a safe return for their investment. Who cares? They dont care what comic fans think. I will Ignore Constantine just like From Hell.
You know the Chandler quote "the books are still there".
On the plus side, from what weve seen the Hellboy transition from simplistic moody action comic to simplistic moody action movie seems to be going well.
I saw "The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen" trailer today, another standard action flick. A bit disappointing to see Sean Connery playing yet another 'old but still tough' Sean Connery cliche. It would be interesting to see him stretch himself a bit with Quartermains frailties. But I guess thats what separates actors and Movie Stars.
 
 
sleazenation
13:19 / 10.06.03
In the case of League of extraordinary gentlemen i must admit to shrugging and thinking during the trailer

"y'know all these characters are public domain, and if you are going to change the story and even the title of the movie, why not save yourself some cash on the movie rights and just do an original feature?"

Unfortunately I am guessing that money paid in movie options are so tiny to the studios that they can freely throw them about with little regard. And without the impetus provided by a licenced property original scripts face an even longer period of development hell than movies based on a film option.


Just a thought but does anyone know roughly what proportion of Hollywood's annual output is based on something else?
 
 
Mystery Gypt
13:28 / 10.06.03
its a complete misconception to believe that studios are interested in using any kind of "fanbase" when buying comic properties that do not have legendary liscenses attached. What they are after in a high-concept pitch is an idea, and what they want to know is that the idea is market tested. This is why studios are currently buying korean and japanese remake rights for huge sums despite the fact the movies are totally not structured for an american audience. They simply want to know that there is a core concept that people might like. Not the SAME people, just people as a market.

No studio believes that the 20,000 living constantine fans -- or leage of x-gentlemen fans -- are important to the success of a project that needs to attract hundreds of millions of dollars worldwide. "Alienating the fans" is off the radar. Not so for something like Harry Potter, where the fanbase is a huge, multi-level demographic, but certainly for these obscure comic characters.

the reason del toro is able to do a faithful adaptation so well is that 1) its been his project all the way through, no studio bought the rights by the handful and then asigned a team, and 2) the source material is more simple than a saturday morning cartoon, so there's nothing at all that had to be altered to make an essentially brainless action flick with a quirky main character and a lot of heart. (except to add character development, which mignola lacks.)
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
13:39 / 10.06.03
Mystery Gypt is right on.

If the Hellblazer movie with Keanu bugs you so much, then don't worry about it and don't go see it. Read your Hellblazer comics, those aren't going to change. No evil Hollywood minions are going to show up in your house, whiting out all of the dialogue in your back issues and replacing it with a string of "dudes" and "whoas."
 
 
sleazenation
13:58 / 10.06.03
So basically Hollywood will pay money for tested ideas. That's as big and as small as it gets.
 
 
Baz Auckland
14:10 / 10.06.03
[thread rot: If they get Chas to drive the Constantinemobile, it won't be so bad]
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
15:23 / 10.06.03
I've done a couple of (non-comic book) adaptations - which you haven't seen - and it's a funny business.

Movie studios crave original, but more, they crave 'safe'. This kind of thing scares studios spitless. So it's just possible - for example - that you might get Constantine opposing Apocalyptic Christians and the Damnation Army. You will never get the moment when an angel says to him "my girlfriend's pregnant".

Sometimes, though, it's about expectations: I was once contracted to work on a children's story which dealt with, among other things, the real lives of the Bronte family. I wrote a draft, and delivered it to the producer.

Him: "Nick, this is awfully morbid. They all die young."

Me: "Um. Yes. They did."

Him: "Well, we can't use that."

Understand, this guy is far from stupid. He bought a property which I still think had the potential to be a stunning film - but he bought it without really considering what it was and what he wanted. We went through any number of variations on the theme, and finally it became clear that the good movies you could make out of that material weren't the movies he wanted to make, and we stopped. In a studio setting, we might well have continued...


The reason why so many adaptations - of all kinds - go wrong is this:

You (an exec at a studio) buy a comicbook property rather than an original screenplay about a new superhero, because you can show that it had a market. It was a best seller. It was a smart thing to buy.

In order to demonstrate that you have protected that investment (and in order actually to protect it) you need a star with name and face recognition who can open the movie - i.e. who can guarantee people will go. You need a director with a good track record, preferably with some experience of this kind of material. You need a writer with similar credits.

The star wants you to make the character more sympathetic before s/he comes on board. Less violent, more trustworthy, less promiscuous, more attractive... whatever. The director loves the idea but thinks it's out of date. The writer doesn't necessarily understand the material - s/he has had a short time to look into it and become an instant expert. Also, s/he may not have been so well-chosen - writing 'Smallville' won't necessarily set you up to write 'Doom Patrol' - but they're both comic books, right? So on paper, it's perfect. Together, you decide to use the first eight issues of the comic book as your template - because that way, you don't have to worry about backstory you have to explain to your supposed massive new audience.

All this is, on paper, perfect decision-making. Not one thing has been done imprudently, which will be vital if the movie doesn't work and you have to explain yourself.

Result: a movie where the main character - who was, by definition, a misanthropic sod who was 'good' only because he was, roughly, on our side - has become a paragon of virtue; where the world in which he lives has been updated and rendered less vile, more worth loving; where the moral ambiguity is gone. Strangely, the engine of the story has been ripped out - not deliberately, but by a filtering process where no one takes a stand for the original material - because what's important is not what the project was, but what it will become.

The only way to avoid this (within the studio system) is the exercise of raw power.

To return to Hellblazer by way of example: if Russell Crowe had announced he wanted to play Constantine and Spielberg were prepared to produce it with Stephen Gaghan writing and Alejandro AmenĂ¡bar directing... you'd get a Constantine movie of quality.

Maybe.
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
15:40 / 10.06.03
Thanks for a look into the process, Nick. That's fairly disheartening, I have to say.

And Flux: 'Read your Hellblazer comics, those aren't going to change. No evil Hollywood minions are going to show up in your house, whiting out all of the dialogue in your back issues and replacing it with a string of "dudes" and "whoas." '

True, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility of DC/Vertigo altering the book to more closely resemble the film, especially if it winds up being a hit. Marvel's done it w/the X-Men (to an admittedly small extent), and they arguably have a much closer relationship to their fanbase than Warner Brothers does to DC's fanbase.
 
 
Seth
21:27 / 10.06.03
I've read the Ennis run and some of Delano's (did the latter do two stints? If so I mean the first). So I'm not sure that substituting Brit social commentary for Yank would effect the essential character much at all. All of which is moot, because searching cultural analysis will play absolutely no part in this movie.
 
 
PatrickMM
22:52 / 10.06.03
While it's true that you'll still have the original book, a bad adaptation could hurt the chances of people reading the original book. If From Hell the movie was good, a lot of people would have been encouraged to check out the source material, but I don't think anyone would pick up the book after seeing that movie, without some prompting. And now, if you were to mention From Hell to someone, they'd likely think of the awful movie, and not be open to checking out the book.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
23:24 / 10.06.03
True, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility of DC/Vertigo altering the book to more closely resemble the film, especially if it winds up being a hit.

Yeah, and so what? It doesn't change any of the Hellblazer comics that came before it, the ones that you love. These sort of changes happen in company-owned characters all of the time - new creators come on and make the characters unrecognizable or substantially different from a previous creator. You move on. If you want to get hung up about it, you can form some kind of weird H.E.A.T.-style campaign, but what's the point? No one has changed the comics that you love, they've just put an end to new stories.

I think that every Justice League comic since Keith Giffen and JM DeMatteis stopped writing it has been pretty lame. I'm not terribly hung up about it. Everything's got to end someday. Why would radically changing the character for a different audience be a different thing than say, cancelling the series?
 
 
at the scarwash
01:01 / 11.06.03
It's not like Hellblazer has been a particularly good title for a loooong time. Well before I started reading it. The last guy, Azathoth or whatever, I felt lost sight of the character. I admit I've done little more than skim the current issues. Ellis, well he's Ellis. Garth Ennis wrote it best, I suppose, but even he is too Ennis sometimes. You know, the "I'm hard, I chainsmoke, I piss on me mates" thing got old. And if a Preacher film hurts sales for that incredibly overrated title, well the state of Louisiana and the entire American South will be one step closer to exorcizing yet another dangerous stereotype.
 
 
grant
14:33 / 11.06.03
this new American Splendor thing looks amazing

Huh?

Harvey Pekar???
 
 
Jack Fear
14:53 / 11.06.03
Yup. The film is apparently a mix of documentary-style footage, with the real Harvey and Joyce, and dramatized episodes from the comic, with Paul Giamatti playing Harvey and Hope Davis as Joyce.

It won the grand jury prize at Sundance, and opens in limited release on August 15.

If that's not enough to sell you: James Urbaniak, the glowering garbageman in Hal Hartley's sublime Henry Fool, plays Robert Crumb.
 
 
videodrome
18:39 / 11.06.03
I interviewed the directors of Splendor last week - when I get it transcribed a full account will probably reside on my page. I'll link when the time comes.
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
07:58 / 12.06.03
Why would radically changing the character for a different audience be a different thing than say, cancelling the series?

I dunno. I guess because I'd rather see a story burn out than fade away. A cancellation is an end, a stopping point. And I agree that all things should have their endings. It's simply a shame when that ending comes in the form of an interminable, senile ramble. But, as you say, such is the rule w/r/t corporate-owned serializations, unfortunately.
 
  
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