BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Small-Time Tarot Readers

 
  

Page: (1)2

 
 
FinderWolf
18:17 / 04.06.03
No, this thread isn't about physically small tarot readers (the original title of the thread was "Small Tarot Readers"), but about the tarot readers you see in the streets of, say, NYC, or street fairs, or psychics who have neon signs or little placards in the doors of an apartment building. Has anyone tried a tarot reader like this - a stranger - who came up with anything that impressed you?

The reason I ask is that I've gone to about 4 tarot readers over the past 10 years here in NYC - 3 who had little businesses set up in their apartment, with the neon sign in the door or the people handing out flyers in the street, and one at a street fair. They cost about $20 for a card reading/spread, and none of them gave me any information that was really specific or impressive in any way. Yet they all said that my aura was damaged and that I needed spiritual help & cleansing, which they of course would provide for something like $80-$100.

In terms of general personality reading, they 'read' me in such a vague way that I figured they didn't come up with anything you couldn't get by just being someone who could read people well by looking them up and down, body language, etc.

Since the one thing the readers/psychics told me with consistency is that there was damage to my aura (and I should pay them an arm and a leg to repair it and make my life wonderful), I tend to think they're all just looking for money, and preying on people's fears and insecurities in order to make more than a measly $20 per reading.

3 of the 4 times I went for a reading I was very depressed and unhappy, and the readers picked up on that (or the cards showed it) in a general way. The 4th time I went when I was feeling fine and not depressed at all, and that reader, despite their same bit about the aura, didn't come out with "you're going through a very horrible time" or something like that, so I guess there could have been a kind of distinction.

Also, a lot of these readers asked blatant questions about me which, between the readings and the fact that they all claimed to be psychics, you would think they wouldn't need to do. Not that reading is an exact science, but they would often come out with totally general things and ask me questions to narrow it down. I like to be somewhat scientific about these things and try to give them as little information as possible, and if they ask questions outright just to guage my reaction, I tend to think less of their ability. (i.e. someone said "I see wedding bells for you now" and I'm not even dating anyone -- then they changed their tune about the reading. Or when people ask "What do you do?", which gives them a lot to work with right there.)

I guess I can see there being some imbalances in my aura (which I would think would be true for a lot of people, if not most), but that's all I ever got out of these readings. I've never had anyone get something very specific from 'em, much to my disappointment.

One interesting thing is that all these tarot readers asked if anyone had ever told me before that I had a damaged aura and needed big-time healing with crystals and such. Now, they all did say that, but part of me wonders if this is just a sales tactic to hit paydirt. When I told them I wasn't going to be giving them any more money, they started in like some cultish Scientology/Landmark Form group, saying "Well hey, this is very important, what's your happiness worth, some things are more important than money, this will make a huge difference, how can you put a value on your spiritual health?", etc.

Which didn't work, except for one time where I did try it, partly out of desperation and partly out of curiosity, work with a psychic for a few months. She gave me a crystal and some oils and specific instructions on what to do with them -- I experienced a very slight improvment in my mental health at the time, but nothing really significant. I gave her a few hundred for this (I feel like an idiot for having done it, since I feel like it probably only did very little, at most (if ANYTHING), on a spiritual level), but when she said she needed something like $7,000 to use pure gold that has been blessed (which she gets from a friend in Rome) in order to permanently heal my aura, I said bye-bye. Another one (that I tried working with for about 2 weeks) said her efforts on my behalf weren't working because I wasn't giving her enough money for 'the work' to be strong. Yeesh.

Readings from friends have been a little better and a little more specific.

I know there are good readers out there, but I sure haven't found 'em, and I've come to the conclusion that I'm not gonna find 'em at street fairs or in NYC apartments or little places with neon signs.
 
 
cusm
19:41 / 04.06.03
Wow, sounds like a lot of scammers to me.

As for "psychic healing", I know a lot of people with Reiki Attunements who can do that sort of thing. A lot of folks charge up to $300 to do an attument, but I've found the ones who "get it" will do it for free or in barter for similar services, as is more appropriate for this sort of thing. So basicly, if you're paying for the crystal jiggling, you're not talking to the right people. There are plenty out there that'll work on your aura for some weed and conversation. I don't trust anyone who wants me to actually pay for it.
 
 
illmatic
07:59 / 05.06.03
Very interesting - I've often wondered about going to one of these people to see what they're like. I was reading "Skeptical Inquirer" magazine in Borders day before yesterday, and there was quite an interesting article in there by a guy who'd done a thorough study of "cold reading" (the body of technique for reading information from boy language/subtle, probing questions etc) and then set himself up as a psychic/Tarot reader/astrology and gave a number of readings, based on this. He found that based on the information people were giving off unconsciously he could figure out enough to ask the right questions/give 'em the answers they wanted. He (pretty obviously, bearing in mind the magazine it was in) thought the whole process a load of bullshit with "psychics" preying on people's emotional needs.

A sneaky part of me was sying "hmm.... have you ever read 'em at home - for yourself?" As then he might have been in for a few surprises, but then again, his beliefs were such, he'd probably brush it off, I guess.

But (off-topic) Skeptical Inquirer! What a magazine! There's even a full colur pull out section called "Junior Skeptic" with cartoons etc etc!!! I have this vision of really obnoxious kids at Junior School lecturing there classmates. Anybody have any ideas what those of such a skeptical persuasion have chosen this set of beliefs? Why enter this reality, focused on disproving, rather than (say) studying the scienctific discipline that fascinates you the most? What do they get out of it? Is it just the satisfaction of being right?
 
 
GreenMann
08:14 / 05.06.03
Hi there, i'm also a small-time Tarot reader.

Does anyone know what the Tarot card/s is/are for a health problem?

I thought it was one of the low coins, but i'm not sure now.
 
 
Quantum
11:06 / 05.06.03
Firstly, those geezers were charlatans and out to make money. I'm a fairly experienced reader and of all the paid readings I've had only one has been 'genuine' in my opinion, a guy who does the nightclubs in London, also festivals and on the south bank.
Most Fortune tellers are bunko artists, you're right to be sceptical.

Cusm is right in everything he says (as usual) if your aura is damaged get a reiki healer you trust, or another sort of healer. Personally I don't think there is likely to be anything wrong with your aura but if there is then carrying a lump of quartz will probably fix it.

GreenMann- depends on the problem. The five of pentacles/coins is a good generic one, but if (say) it was about balance you'd use the 2, if it was headaches you'd use a sword or the 4, etc.


However, charging for readings is a thorny issue. I would like to be a professional reader but I don't like to charge money, and many people who come for readings want to be told soothing lies, and expect the 'spooky' delivery of a charlatan.
My mother (a reader) says you should never do a reading for free. Even if you only get a button, you should receive payment of some kind to honour and respect the cards. Additionally it helps the querent value the advice- free advice is often ignored, ironically people will listen to a charlatan they pay but not a friend who reads for free.
This is a problem online because you can't email someone a button- what would people suggest as appropriate electronic payment for a reading? I do readings for 'lithers and I need some way of charging- what about a good link, or a poem, or something written by the person maybe?
 
 
illmatic
12:18 / 05.06.03
I think any kind of nice exchange would be an appropriate fee ie. a book or CD, a bottle of wine or perhaps something less valuable. Maybe they could do you a service instead ie. rewrite your CV, give you a massage or something similar?
 
 
Papess
12:19 / 05.06.03
It is important to remember that Tarot readers are not necessarily psychic. I believe the cards never lie. When cast, they are an expression of order and chaos and the interplay of that. The best one can hope for is good interpretation.

My personal feeling on charging for readings is - If I had to pay for it I should take it as entertainment, like a movie or drinks. However, if I want that reading to mean something and make it relevant I have to imbue the whole thing myself with that kind of power. I ultimately choose whether it means something or not.

Remember the Oracle!
 
 
C.Elseware
13:01 / 05.06.03
This is a problem online because you can't email someone a button- what would people suggest as appropriate electronic payment for a reading? I do readings for 'lithers and I need some way of charging- what about a good link, or a poem, or something written by the person maybe?

Maybe the same way some free software projects do it... I've seen several GPL software projects for which the authors do not ask for payment but link to an amazon.co.uk (or similar) wishlist with items of varying value on it.

Paying by paypal would be an option, but not if the point is to make them feel like they paid for it. I never feel like electronic money is "real". However picking a book or CD from a longish list on amazon would feel like I was actually giving them something. I'd probably end up spending more than I meant to give them the book I thought really worth reading.

If the point is to make them pay, not to gain yourself, ask them to create or draw you a picture, and make yourself a little online gallery. That will cost them time, arguably the most basic currency.
 
 
GreenMann
14:04 / 05.06.03
Thanx quantum.
 
 
Quantum
14:34 / 05.06.03
Hmmm, not into paypal, but the wishlist idea has merit- problem is online readings aren't as good as IRL readings so the charge should be less. I'm happy to accept created art/writing if it's good, or whatever the person feels is a fair trade.

This is my basic problem- I'd love to make a living as a reader but I don't like to charge money, and I need to earn money to make a living. I think I'll teach people to read and charge for that, I've got no problem charging for lessons. Maybe I'll get my girlfriend to draw a sign tonight and advertise...
I wonder if it's possible (or advisable) to teach over the web? I'm thinking not as there are so many Tarot resources already, better to stick to real life. Face to face teaching is much better for all involved.
 
 
FinderWolf
18:11 / 05.06.03
Yeah, all my readers so far have been bunkos, basically. I feel like an idiot that I parted with all that cash, but it was an expirement of sorts, too.

Would I offend anyone putting up a link to a tarot website that gives free readings that I've always found helpful and pretty accurate? I've checked out this site for several years and the readings, though just through a mouse click, have proven to be pretty appropo each time.

I was wondering about this, too - the whole idea of getting a tarot reading via the net, via computer, through random selections of a computer program. Yet this one really seems to work for me. The site has rune readings and I Ching readings too, that are also pretty good. So my conclusion so far is that random computer-generated readings via the Net can indeed be good readings. I guess it's not much different than the randomness of casting the I Ching discs. Obviously real life readings would be better, but this site has proven pretty good for computer-generated readings.
 
 
cusm
18:38 / 05.06.03
The thing with random readings is, you're basicly giving yourself a reading. There's a different sort of thing going on with someone reading for you than you doing it yourself, Ego seperation and all.

As for payment, I'll admidt there is a fine tradition of charging for magickal/spiritual services as a means of respect. Thing is, it IS a service, so even if there is nothing material exchanged, there's a karmic exchange taking place from it. That's why I normally don't do them except for friends, with whom the karmic balance is ever muddled and that's just fine. Well, unless its for the practice of it or for my personal amusement, but that's different So there is good reason to do it.

I just shy away from the idea of involving money, as from this comes all corruption. If there is to be an exchange, I'd prefer it be one of good will or service rather than money. It just seems "cleaner" to me that way. But in this I reveal my unworkable utopian ideals, so you'll have that.
 
 
Sha Jotaro
20:39 / 05.06.03
So in other words, a lot of those store-front fortune tellers are like the mechanics that charge $10 for a oil change then come and tell you that you have a car problem that costs $400.

Did I get that analogy correct?
 
 
Quantum
10:18 / 06.06.03
Yes. Or like the guy who has snake oil at only 50 cents a shot, or the guy who sells you the brooklyn bridge

On the other hand there are genuine small time readers- my mother read professionally in a room on a pier for several years and was totally honest, genuine and top quality. So you never know. I look for signs that the reader is down to earth, that's generally a good indicator- the more experienced the reader the more practical they are it seems. Like most magickal types I guess.
 
 
FinderWolf
15:28 / 06.06.03
My favorite free online tarot reading site: (also with runes & I Ching!)

http://www.astrologysoftware.com/new_oracles/tarot/index.asp?orig=

And yes, Sha, you got the analogy right on the dot. When I balked at the extended service they were offering me, they were like "Hey, it's your life that's being ruined and you don't want to do what's necessary to improve it, that's your choice." Fucking annoying.
 
 
Sha Jotaro
19:47 / 06.06.03
Yeah, I use online readings a lot myself. It usually means that they can be better interpeted because you understand the question better than a total stranger. Helps stretch out the intuition muscles too.

Here's something... when one of those fortune tellers say you've got a 'damaged aura' or a 'curse', do you go on and do your own banishing/purification?
 
 
FinderWolf
20:03 / 06.06.03
Funny you should say that, Sha, one of them did say I had a 'curse' on the males of my family (she came up with this whole thing that it didn't hit every male but skipped around) -- I haven't done a banishing/purification for it. Maybe that's a good idea. But I also don't want to give credence to the notion that I do have a 'curse'. However, maybe it couldn't hurt to do a banishing anyway.
 
 
gravitybitch
01:00 / 07.06.03
I've never paid for a reading, so I'm ignoring the abstract (but thank you for putting it up!!).

I've been tempted - there's a psychic's place I walk by on a fairly regular basis and the come-on special is $10: not enough to feel guilty about!

But, I've been pretty successful in reading for myself, and just got a new deck that I'm completely in love with. It's the Vertical Oracle - completely nontraditional (info at http://www.verticalpool.com/oracle.html). They'd had a space for online readings that I tended to hit at the full/new moon, and the consistency made me suspect cookies or some such. But they closed down that site, I bought the deck, and I'm still getting scarily consistent readings with it. (I'm very happy with the deck & will pull cards for folk; PM me and I'll send you what I get. The cards seem to be set up to give big overview-type responses, but that may just be my take on it.) I'd been using the Cosmic Tribe deck (a Burning Man take on the traditional Tarot) along with DMK's Modern Magick, will continue to do so and use it for specific questions as well.

I've just realized that I have paid for readings. A friend recommended a reader at a (now defunct) metaphysical church where he was studying; I was always pleased with the readings but they weren't in any way "cold" readings. The reader was teaching my friend, knew about me from casual conversations at the very least... and there was incentive not to shovel bullshit in my direction. So I'm satisfied with the readings I got, but my situation might not quite match the scenario you're asing about.
 
 
FinderWolf
14:43 / 10.06.03
Anyone check out the free online reading link I posted above? I really enjoy that site; every time I think I've seen all it can show me some new sentence or paragraph I've never seen before comes up in a reading (like it just did now!).
 
 
Quantum
10:33 / 11.06.03
Nice but seems to be only Major arcana. Also it has an impersonal feel, but it's a nice looking site.
 
 
Olulabelle
10:43 / 11.06.03
I did and it was weirdly accurate, but i don't understand how it can possibly work. If the computer is randomly selecting the cards from a database, how am I affecting the reading? Isn't the database doing the reading based on a pre-programmed set of rules?
 
 
Mr Messy
11:21 / 11.06.03
Hello. This is bigtime threadrot I fear. Lets see.

I'm interested in all the talk about charging folk for readings. It reminds me of my own profession. I work as a counsellor/psychotherapist, and most therapists have no qualms about charging clients at all. It is regarded as a contract which should be clearly defined and agreed by counsellor and client at the start of the work.

I have felt that asking for money is grabby and materialistic and very opposed to all the qualities I am trying to imbue. But, and I think this is where I begin to get relevant, by reading cards you could choose to define this as providing a service that involves some sort of exchange. I wonder if the issue is about feeling confident about asking for money. It should be okay, after all we need money to live. Yet isn't it strange how the common perception is that it is only the neon psychics who are asking for money - and hence dodgy.

Or maybe I'm missing the point.

(Enjoying my first set of tarot by the way. Still working through the meanings of the minor arcana and looking forward to experimenting with my first readings.)

End bigtime rot.
 
 
Quantum
13:04 / 11.06.03
The problem is the perception of the reader- a client/counsellor relationship would be great but Tarot readers aren't considered in the same way, more as an entertainment. Also there is a culture of gullible people who pay for readings regularly and expect you to act like the charlatans, and get upset if you don't.
 
 
C.Elseware
13:48 / 11.06.03
Randomly selecting the cards from a database.

The random number generator on a computer can be generated in one of three ways:
1. based on the previous few random numbers generated
2. "seeded" off of the time in seconds or microseconds. Often time in seconds since 00:00:00 01/01/1970 is used, but microseconds are better. With seconds, 3 queries in the same second would give the same answer.
3. based on a true random number generator, such as a camera pointed at a lavalamp (SGI used to do this!) or radioactive decay http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/ (see also their explanation of psudorandom numbers, the proper name for (1) and (2)

The easiest (therefore most likely) way to generate randomness for a web toy is option (2), for this purpose it is ideal as the exact moment you request the reading is the base for the randomness - and that's under your control.

All the online reading tools I've played with only list the cards in their positions and then give you a pat summary of the card, and the position it is in.

It would be interesting the build a system with a list of links between cards, and explanations. ie. re-inforcing/opposing, pairs etc.

Another interesting experiment would be to create a virtual blank deck of "n" cards (78 being traditional) and then do readings using it, with a method for adding to the meanings of the "cards". Maybe a wiki-node per card... I like wikis. Over time with multiple users you would build up a meaning or set of meanings for each card/node. You could also build up links between the cards, but that'd be a huge task as a 78 card deck has 6006 potential pairs!
----

As for the charging for readings; the amount you value a service will be changed by paying for it. If someone is really putting in the effort of a good reading, then you should be giving them something in return. Even if it's cooking 'em dinner.
 
 
Quantum
14:31 / 11.06.03
It wouldn't be too difficult to include relational information on a computerised reading, e.g. if you get predominantly swords it indicates strife, if you get several aces it indicates new beginnings, if you get more than three major arcana in a ten card spread that's significant etc. You wouldn't have to detail every possible relation between cards, just add a detector to count th occurrence of suits, numbers and major arcana.

The main problem with computer readings is the lack of human contact. Tarot reading is a magical act and involves an exchange of 'energy' between the reader and querent. A computer can't do that, (as well as not having the capacity to utilise 'exceptions' rules etc.) so to use a sexual metaphor computerised readings are like wanking- a solo affair. On the other hand, reading for yourself can work so why not...
 
 
cusm
16:42 / 11.06.03
When you shuffle a deck and draw a card, you create a probability field that means that the card drawn is all possible cards you could draw, until this field is collapsed into choice when you percieve what was drawn. It is this interaction with probability that fuels divination in the pure sense of receiving information from a divine (external and unknowable) source. If distance is not a factor for the transmission of information in things like electron pairs, why should it be in this case? From this perspective, computerized drawings are completely valid as the probability field is not collapsed until you percieve the results. This is given the theory that the computer systems transmitting the information do not collapse the field themselves for you, naturally. So there's where the faith in magic comes in, I guess

Here's a geeky thought to consider. What if a computer drew not one but thousands of cards for you, and ran statistical analysis on the results? The cards which were drawn statistically more often than others would show a tendency for probability to choose that card, and thus indicate the draw given to you. Tarot by bell curve.
 
 
FinderWolf
00:44 / 12.06.03
Yeah, cusm, that's kinda how I thought of it. Well, I didn't think of it in such erudite terms, but pretty much I just figured if your aura and/or thoughts and/or spirit helps lead you to the appropriate cards when you're doing an in-person reading, why not the same thing when you're doing a computer reading?

Like I said, they've always worked quite well for me, sometimes staggeringly so. (esp. on the site I linked above)
 
 
Quantum
10:49 / 12.06.03
Different folks different strokes I guess, I prefer pasteboard and personal contact but there you are- I'm not going to suggest e-readings don't work but I don't think they're as good, because the interpretation isn't there. Two minds are better than one...
Tarot by bell curve. Dude! That should be done! In a similar vein I was recently given a Rider deck, and to transfer some of my resonance and break it in I'm going to do two simultaneous readings for my girlf, one with the new deck and one with my old deck. I'm interested to see how similar they are, but also how they interact.

If it works, I might try doing two-deck readings, and possibly three deck (although my brain might melt)
Imagine the impact of getting the same major arcana in both/all three readings, that'd fuck a sceptical querent in the ass (so to speak)!
I'll let you know how it goes.
 
 
C.Elseware
15:23 / 12.06.03
done. Somebody owes me a beer.

http://www.absolution-online.com/tarot/curve.cgi
 
 
cusm
16:56 / 12.06.03
Damn straight. Nice work

(though the bell curve thing should go to its own thread if its to be pursued any further.)
 
 
Wyrd
17:48 / 12.06.03
Most pagans I know who do healing, tarot-reading, etc. have struggled with the very thorny issue of charging for their services. Basically, we have very fucked up attitudes to money. Some people see is as "low", and crude, and that it shouldn't be attached to spiritual gifts. I know a lot of borderline poor pagans because they just feel too guilty to charge what they are worth.

The currency of our age is money. If you want to make a living just via healing/tarot/etc. you have to charge money. What I've found is that if you charge too little then people don't pay any attention to what you say, and don't consider you any good. If you charge more, people pay attention to what you say. As I said, fucked up attitudes to money... More = better in most people's books. Of course there is a balance to be attained, as I wouldn't be in favour of ripping people off either.

I know at least one Tarot reader, who is a good friend of mine, and who is the best reader I've met. I'm lucky in that we work on a quid pro quo basis, and I do readings for her in exchange for ones I give her. She does advertise and charge for her readings, but at a very decent price - I'm constantly pushing her to charge more, actually.

So, yes, there are good readers out there, but you have to pick and choose them. A recommendation is alway best. Charging a fair price is a good indication. Someone who's charging you 10 bucks is probably going to use that as a lure to get you in so they can try and con you into the other healings that were mentioned. It's an awful thing to tell a person s/he has a curse... especially if it's not true. People don't forget information like that, and it weighs on their minds.

If you are eager to find a good reader, why not just "ask" to find one? Then one day you'll be walking along a strange street and a new reader will catch your attention...
 
 
FinderWolf
18:18 / 12.06.03
I agree that in-person readings are better than computer stuff; I just wanted to make the point that I think computer stuff works on some level.

And I also agree that readers have every right to charge money -- a person's gotta eat, pay rent, etc. And yes, the $10-20 thing is usually a way to lure/hook people in for more. Personal recommendations are definitely better than just walking down the street and trying someone you see has set up shop -- that was what led to my 4 con-job readings (walking down the street and seeing a reader, that is).
 
 
gravitybitch
08:06 / 23.10.04
I want to resurrect this thread for the purpose of asking a question from the other side of the coin, as it were...

A friend of mine is a damn-good stage magician, great with up-close sleight of hand, and not at all bad at cold readings. He's had some questions about the ethics of doing Tarot readings (advertised as entertainment) to supplement his income between paid stage gigs, while being a true non-believer.

What do you all think?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:45 / 23.10.04
Ordinarily I'd jump up and down shouting about bloody charlatans undermining the reputation of genuine readers but since your mate is advertising his readings as entertainment, I'd say go for it.

Besides, there's a chance that Mister Skeptical will learn something. Heheheheheh.
 
 
FinderWolf
14:09 / 26.10.04
This is not about Tarot cards, but about fortune cookies instead and I thought it might fit this thread:

recently I was thinking, as I have about once or twice a year, about how I really want to see the Pyramids at Gaza (in person, of course) before I die. It was about 3 years ago that I said: "I've gotta go see them."

I was thinking it on the morning of Oct. 24. On the evening of that same day, I got chinese food. My fortune cookie read: "You long to see the Great Pyramids."

I was kind of surprised, since I'm not sure if I've ever seen that fortune cookie message before (though I feel like I have seen it before, years ago). And I don't often think about how I want to visit the pyramids - like I said, it goes through my conscious mind maybe once or twice a year.

Has anyone else ever gotten this fortune before?
 
  

Page: (1)2

 
  
Add Your Reply