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Evidence for the existence of psychic ability?

 
 
Ganesh
01:17 / 04.06.03
Prompted by the 'May Warning' thread but, I hope, wider in scope, I'm interested in whether applying the scientific method to psychic phenomena (ie. trying to reproduce feats of mind-reading, etc. under controlled 'laboratory conditions')

A) has produced evidence for the existence of such phenomena,

and

B) might reasonably be attempted through Barbelith.

I'm vaguely aware of Institutes of Parapsychology and experiments with Zehner(?) cards, and so on - but can anyone link to anything more conclusive? Where B) is concerned, I suppose I'm thinking of remote viewing, but would be interested in devising tests of other psychic abilities. Does anyone think this is feasible?
 
 
gravitybitch
01:46 / 04.06.03
Oy. I truly don't know...

The scientist in me wants desperately to find hard and proveable evidence. The magickian in me shrugs and wishes us luck in applying rational tools to something that exists outside of the "rational universe"....

There are lots of things that cannot be explained - the Global Consciousness Project is one such, individual consciousness is another. Given that events with high emotional content seem to be able to affect random number generators and that we have no explanation for consciousness itself, I see no reason that people might not be "conscious" of events they have not directly or physically experienced.
 
 
gravitybitch
01:54 / 04.06.03
Some of us did an experiment of sorts here, but I don't know that anybody ever posted conclusive results. I got what I consider to be zilch...
 
 
Ganesh
16:09 / 04.06.03
Interesting - I'm not sure the scientific method can't be applied to 'irrational' phenomena. Besides the remote viewing idea, I'd imagine that claims of precognition might be fairly easily tested. I'm quite prepared to accept that psychic phenomena might follow 'differently-scientific' rules: I'm interested in what people think those rules might be, and how they might be tested. Grant Morrison, for example, claimed a degree of reliability for his sigilising method in 'The Invisibles' - suggesting there might exist rules of cause-and-effect, if not particularly obvious ones.

Thoughts?
 
 
LVX23
17:42 / 04.06.03
I suspect that much of what exists as magick resides outside the limitations of causality and is more aligned with a higher organizational principle along the lines of Synchronicity or Quantum Mechanics. Still there are empirical means of testing your results from magickal operations, but the data would probably be of the softer subjective type, rather than hard numbers. After all, magick proceeds more by the meaning it has for the magician, than the validity or reproducibility of it's outcome in classical terms.
 
 
Star Of The Sea
00:28 / 05.06.03
You should check out www.randi.org
James Randi has offered $1,000,000 to anyone who can provide evidence for the paranormal or supernatural, including psychic ability. To date, no-one has even got close to it. Pretty good evidence, in my opinion.

regards,

Luke
 
 
gravitybitch
02:40 / 05.06.03
My understanding is that he functions sort of like the USA's highest court - there are questions they refuse to address, there are things he refuses to look at.

I could be wrong, of course, as I don't remember where I read that allegation... It's one of those things that has been kicking around in the back of my head long enough to have lost context and labels and such.
 
 
gravitybitch
03:29 / 05.06.03
As far as applying the scientific method... Ummm. LVX23 has it right in that there might well be cause and effect, but the cause (how the ritual is performed, the magickian's intent, etc) is pretty subjective and the effect is pretty subjective as well - most of the advice for ritual suggest that results are more likely if you leave at least one "mundane" path for results to manifest through. So it's tough to separate something that happened due to the magickian's efforts from something that might have happend anyway... Highly subjective.

I'm not denying that there are rules to magick - there are. But, the rules aren't necessarily the same ones that operate in the mundane world...

Picture the frame for a standard Venn diagram. Put a circle in the frame somewhere. Divide the circle in half, and label one half of the circle RATIONAL and one half IRRATIONAL. The stuff outside the circle is where magick operates... different environment, different rules.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
21:59 / 05.06.03
Did we have a thread on dream communication between 'Lithers a few months ago?
 
 
LVX23
22:49 / 05.06.03
The over-dependence upon scientific "proof" is one of the greatest flaws of the modern age, creating a mechanistic world full of explanation but increasingly devoid of meaning. It is incorrect to assume that mysticism should be reducible to rationalism - they are two sides of the same coin or, rather, two refractions of the same beam of light. At least half of the human experience on this planet is irrational - emotions, creative insights, self-reflection, higher states of awareness, the shiver you get from hearing a really great piece of music, laughter, love, etc... Science doesn't even know why cats purr, but anyone who lives with cats knows flat out: because they're happy. Some things magickal are simply common sense but rationalism tries to dispel mystery by shackling it to materialism.

See. Feel. Love. Understand. Believe. This will make yoou a good magician.
 
 
Quantum
09:35 / 06.06.03
I'm all for scientific proof of magick, but there are inherent problems- firstly what would constitute proof? Any evidence that supported psychic powers would be massively outweighed by the evidence to show they haven't.
Secondly even if you got a result, it would subsequently be either ignored or 'debunked'. Witness the homeopathy farce where a French scientist found some evidence for it and Randi and his mates came and discredited him. Also the Eysenck/Mayo studies on Astrology that found a significant relationship between astrological sunsign and introversion/extroversion, later 'disproved' by replication.
Anyone who scientifically proves any parapsychological phenomenon gets their method criticised and their reputation trashed.
Thirdly it's possible magick is shy. It is naturally associated with shadows and boundaries, and often does not perform well in the harsh light of day.
 
 
Lurid Archive
09:56 / 06.06.03
I can never help feeling in these discussions that when people use the words "science" and "rational" that they are speaking a different language to me.

For instance, LVX23's explanation of why cats purr strikes me as a profoundly scientific explanation, via psychology. Science doesn't have to be stupid, unimaginative and in denial of emotion, you know.

As for Quantum's list, I could point out that replication and certain good practice are standard - lots of mainstream results get rejected by failing on these grounds. The whole idea that science is biased because it rejects your favourite theory strikes me as just a tad circular. To put it another way, science also rejects the flat earthers, the breatharians and the creationists - what more proof do you need of a limited world view?

Personally, I am very interested in exploring magick through science. I suspect there may be something worth looking at, but the culture of magick seems so hostile to any negative results that it would probably be ultimately fruitless. On the other hand, I do have some sympathy, with qualifications, for the view that magick deals with the subjective which is not easily amenable to scientific scrutiny.

Like others, I'd like to see these different areas interact. Unlike some, I don't think this process is a one way street.
 
 
illmatic
10:34 / 06.06.03
I wouldn’t object to the scientific examination of magickal phenomena per se – almost regardless of results, in fact, as I think the contrast between scientific method and magickal madness can teach us a lot about the two respective approaches. As I understand it, the essence of scientific method is repeatable experiments that prove a certain hypothesis. The essence of magick seems to be something more like gnosis, that is the flowering of individual understanding and inspiration, which (the magician would claim) is sometimes reflected back from the environment. Obviously, this rests heavily on subjective experience and judgement, which is where the scientist steps in and says “bollocks”.

One of my favourite summations is Carl Jung’s introduction to the I Ching, where he speaks of a divination as part of the environment, the fall of the coins or cards part of everything that’s occurring at that moment, given meaningful form in the language of the hexagrams. To repeat this (a la scientific method) is to change the moment, to bring in a new variable. To repeat this indefinitely, infallibly, would be to divorce the method from the context which gives it meaning. I’m sure statements like that make the scientifically minded want to reach for their baseball bats .
I was the other participant in the experiment that Izabelle mentioned and I actually thought we got some interesting results, though they occupied that weird half zone of proof. I’ve had a couple of other interesting synchronities with Barbelithers which, while they won’t be getting peer reviewed in Nature anytime soon, were interesting and valid to me. Is anyone up for some more experiments?

(Lurid - sorry I wrote the above offline, and so proably haven't responded very well to what you've said. More later perhaps - I certainly don't want to fall into the trap of seeing science as "the enemy". Have you seen Pete Caroll's Liber Kaos? Strong attempt to put magick on a scientific basis, though this rests on his own speculative physics.I'd be interested to hear what you thought of it).
 
 
Lurid Archive
11:28 / 06.06.03
Have you seen Pete Caroll's Liber Kaos?

No. I went through a period of reading some magick stuff, but then much upheaval seemed to take the ooomph out of that. I may return to it, however. That said, I tend not to be very into using speculative physics and formulae to prove things - that probably sounds as if I am overly conservative, which perhaps I am, but once you understand how to manipulate maths you tend to be much less impressed by someone else doing it.

More importantly, I think there are perfectly valid explanations of (some elements of) magick. There is no reason why someone of a scientific bent should reject your description of gnosis. Your analysis of the necessity of the subjective and specifity of a divination make perfect sense to me. I mean, I play a bit with Tarot myself.

Is anyone up for some more experiments?

I'd be interested. I could be the super sceptic of the group, to give it a good mix.
 
 
Quantum
12:41 / 06.06.03
As for Quantum's list, I could point out that replication and certain good practice are standard - lots of mainstream results get rejected by failing on these grounds. The whole idea that science is biased because it rejects your favourite theory strikes me as just a tad circular
Dude no, I'm not saying science is biased and suppressing the truth, just that all the research I've discovered is inconclusive or flawed. That means either I have to find an explanation of this, or believe that magick is not scientifically provable and thus (to my rational brain) nonsense.

In fact I see magick and science as different methods, so the fact that magick is unverifiable/unfalsifiable is equivalent to Art being unverifiable/falsifiable.
I have a BSc and a love of quantum physics, cosmology and the philosophy of science, but I also love magick and sincerely believe in it's validity. If we can get some proof of 'non-ordinary' phenomenon I'll be overjoyed.
But I think Magick is a fundamentally subjective thing, and so subject to Psychological investigation in preference to Zimmer cards and whatnot. Take Tarot for example, how would we go about proving the validity of a Tarot reading?
Lurid can be the supersceptic, I'll be pro-magick, let's try using scientific method to verify some magickal phenomenon. Or at least posit a sound experimental design.
 
 
illmatic
12:58 / 06.06.03
I've been thinking about this, how it might be done. I think you'd have to use some method or other which excluded the subjective interpretations present in Tarot or synchroncity - something like the Zenner cards in fact, or the projection of images or shapes into a recepients mind. There was a series of experiments that did this, perhaps using isolation tanks? I can't remember the names though, it was a specific hypotheseis. Soemthing Ganzfield? Bollocks.

Lurid: I'd wondered that about Liber Kaos, but don't have the background to do anything bar going "wow" when faced with his physics. He drafts up a set of equations of magick, that is a set of key factors he thinks are necessary for magicial events to take place. I think these are wildly unworkable in practice but but it's interesting to see someone list what in their opinion are core elements.
His webite is here
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:27 / 06.06.03
In fact I see magick and science as different methods, so the fact that magick is unverifiable/unfalsifiable is equivalent to Art being unverifiable/falsifiable

This is certainly plausible, although it would be fun if something like telepathy could demonstrably and reliably be shown to work.

Take Tarot for example, how would we go about proving the validity of a Tarot reading?

Tricky. One might be tempted to set up "false" readings and see if people react to them differently than the "real" thing, but this is probably missing the point. I'm not sure, is my best answer, though I am probably the wrong person to ask; I'm interested in science, but I'm not a scientist and don't have the temperament for it.

I'd wondered that about Liber Kaos, but don't have the background to do anything bar going "wow" when faced with his physics. - Illmatic

A quick browse at the first physics page (really a geometry page) reveals a heap of elementary errors. I probably shouldn't overstate my knowledge here, but I do know a little geometry. Which isn't to say that there isn't something valuable there, but I'd take it with a pinch of salt. Actually, you should take anything you hear from cosmology with a pinch of salt - they are famous for spouting stuff without justification.
 
 
Bear
13:46 / 06.06.03
I've always wanted to try a remote viewing experiment, so if anyone wants to write a message on a bit of paper and leave it face up somewhere I'd like to try and read it, what do you reckon?
 
 
Quantum
13:54 / 06.06.03
Cool, telepathy, remote viewing, these things are easy to test.
Bear- I'm looking at a piece of paper right now, go for it!
 
 
grant
13:59 / 06.06.03
The thread you all are looking for is here.

It's got some of the science -- not exactly conclusive, but awfully close.

And there's a bit in there on James Randi's close brush with a payout, too.
 
 
grant
14:08 / 06.06.03
Ooo, I lied - the Randi story isn't there.

So here's an abbreviated version. His test: have a "sender" (picked by Randi) draw a picture, seal it in two envelopes, then concentrate on the image. The "receiver" has to get the image right.

There's a guy from New Jersey, I think, Greek last name (can't remember). He hooked up with this psychologist from Vero Beach, FL, who was impressed with his psychic talents. He got the Greek guy to take the Randi challenge. The sender drew the picture and the psychic was like: "Hmm. It's either a car in a field, or a horse."
Randi says, "You gotta pick one."
The psychic goes for the car.
It was a picture of a horse in a field.

So - that's the close brush story. I can't get to the book with the psychic's name in it cuz of the anthrax, but I interviewed the professor/psychologist dude.
 
 
Mike
19:24 / 06.06.03
Like a lot of things like this, it works a lot better when you're not testing it. Test results will almost always show that they don't work. Experience sometimes shows that they do. I think the difference is that these things work below the concious level, so that deliberate testing causes them to fail.
 
 
—| x |—
05:48 / 07.06.03
First, it seems to be that if I was psychic enough to get James Randi’s money, then I’d also be psychic enough to foresee the misery, pain, and bondage that would be the rest of my life; thus, I wouldn't bother with the cash—definitely not worth it! But I’m not psychic—just using some common sense is all.

Second, I feel that there’s been lots of great things said by many of you people—both pros and cons to various things—that I am agreeable to. I won’t take your time by repeating them.

Third, let me add my two bits. My first bit of my third point is that I think there is, in a sense, a sort of difference between what gets called “psychic” phenomena and what gets called “magical” or “mystical” phenomena. Certainly the distinction is very blurry at times, but I think it might be a difference worth noting.

My second bit is that I think that what generates these phenomena is too “subtle” or “fine” to be subject to the mechanisms of a rigorous scientific study. I think this might be why some experiments seem to indicate success for such and such a so-called “paranormal” phenomena (ask me why ‘paranormal’ is a stupid word to use—just ask me), but the result, when tested more widely, isn’t so easily repeatable. I don’t mean this as a cop out, however. I mean, the context, environment, milieu, or whatever needs to be “just right” for these phenomena to manifest—they are, after all, typically “against the odds.” For a psychic example, I will sometimes know with certainty who is phoning me when the telephone first begins to ring. Sometimes I think this is merely a quick rationalization given other factors that I am (un)consciously aware of (time of call, where people I know are supposed to be, etc.), but other times there are no clear indicators as to why I ought to know who is calling—it’s a fine and intangible product of the moment. As for magic/k, well, I feel that in order to prove magic/k you have to understand it, and in order to understand it you have to do it, and once you do it you have proven it, and so, you needn’t prove it to anyone else—like LVX23 notes, “magick proceeds more by the meaning."

To let y’all keep the change, I feel that in trying to prove magic/k (not psychic) phenomena we can, if we are very alert, catch a lightning quick glimpse of the self-contradictory generator that underlies manifestation. It’s likely similar to what might be observed if we were smashing a particle into itself in a particle accelerator. But then, that’s clearly my subjective feelings about the matter.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:46 / 07.06.03
There's also this whole thing where Randi isn't nearly as scientifically-minded and unbiased as he likes to make out, IMHO. Not a scientist in my book.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:04 / 08.06.03
As far as "proof" goes: There's the (in)famous research conducted by the USA and the Russians during the Cold War, but it's nigh-on impossible to suss out what's real research and what's disinfo. An experiment I'm particularly interested in consisted of taking a littler of baby rabbits out to sea in a submarine whilst the mother remained on land. The rabbit kits were then killed one by one. Supposedly, the mother rabbit's EEG showed signs of heightened activity when each kit was killed. This would be fascinating if true, but I have no way of verifying it at present.
 
 
Quantum
08:28 / 09.06.03
Randi isn't nearly as scientifically-minded and unbiased as he likes to make out, IMHO. Not a scientist in my book

Yeah, ironically Randi is a magician (stage magician) and only a debunker to boost his career by copying Houdini.
 
 
Bear
09:28 / 09.06.03
And he really hates Uri Gellar!

Nobody wrote a message saying "What goes Where" or "Golden" did they? I think that was more the pot and wine on Friday night, but it's worth a shot.
 
 
C.Elseware
09:50 / 09.06.03
If you prove an aspect magick as reliable and repeatable then it becomes science. eg. Alchemy proceeded chemistry.

As I have said before, "Any magick understood well enough is indistinguisable from technology"
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
11:41 / 09.06.03
This would be fascinating if true, but I have no way of verifying it at present.

Does that make it a sort of Schroedinger's Rabbit?
 
 
LVX23
18:28 / 09.06.03
...>0<... wrote:
think there is, in a sense, a sort of difference between what gets called “psychic” phenomena and what gets called “magical” or “mystical” phenomena.

I agree. Psychic phenomena, IMO, entails the following set and it's variations:
- Telepethy
- Psychokinesis
- Remote Viewing
- Precognition
These phenomena, I believe, are much more reducible to scientific rigor, especially within the emerging implications of Quantum Mechanics (if one accepts that Quantum Mechanical events interact with Mind). In fact, much of the above phenomena have been shown to be statistically relevant in many tests.

And, AFAIC, Randi is a wanker.
 
 
captain piss
22:38 / 09.06.03
Psychologist Susan Blackmore had some interesting reflections on her years of parapsychology research in this article from Newscientist a while back...kind of explaining why she'd decided to give up on it.
 
  
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