BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Underground > Switchboard >

ID cards, and you have to pay for them

  
 
w1rebaby
02:29 / 24.05.03
The Reg

UK Home secretary and award-winning serial threat to freedom David Blunkett is set to foist identity cards on the UK public under the cloak of dealing with ilegal immigration. The UK public prints (here's one) report that the legislation will be brought in this autumn, "as part of a package to tackle illegal working by migrants" (spot the cloak, people) and Blunkett intends to put a policy paper recommending cards to the Cabinet during the next six weeks.

Radio 4's Today programme incidentally revealed that the alleged "entitlement" cards are referred to as ID cards internally at the Home Office anyway, so we can safely dispense with that piece of smoke, which in any event is a difficult tag to maintain if the system is being operated as a stop and search programme largely aimed at people of darker complexion.

Blunkett, who is absolutely convinced that he has a direct line to the Great British Public and that his critics are all namby-pamby liberals living in Hampstead, no doubt calculates (wrong word - 'believes with messianic fervour') that a crackdown on asylum-seekers, a term that is rapidly becoming synonymous with 'illegal immigrants' will popularise the ID cards. He may however find the scheme less popular when said Public learns that it will cost £1.6 billion (in uk.gov pre-contractor money, so you can guess £4 billion on non-delivery five years late), and that they will be shouldering the bill at £25 extra on top of their next passport or driving licence fee.

The Reg gradually becoming one of the fiercer, or at least more sarcastic, champions of data protection... anyway. ID cards again. The "issue" seems to come up regularly every two years or so - last one was a year ago I think, but these are troubled times and, well, the yanks have had so much success restricting civil liberties, it's worth a try isn't it?

Each time that ID cards are put forward there's a massive wave of opposition both from the "it'll cost too much money and it's a waste of time" brigade and the "Big Brother is on the march again, massive damage to personal freedom" brigade, and ends up tanking. I'm wondering whether this charge-the-citizens-for-their-own-ID-cards measure is designed to placate those of the former within the civil service. Even with this, does it really have a chance?
 
 
Morlock - groupie for hire
08:07 / 24.05.03
Ah, but now there are all those scary terrorists around. Concrete blocks outside parliament, that kind of thing. Perhaps they figure that if they mention ID cards now, then get hit with an attack of some sort, they can ride the plan home on a wave of fear. Or something.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
10:31 / 24.05.03
'twas ever thus.

I hate the idea of ID cards anyway, and apart from anything else, the "terrorism" excuse is a crock of shit. Didn't all the 911 hijackers have valid passports? Therefore they'd have had ID cards too, if it was Britain and Blunkett had his way? And would it have done a fucking thing to stop them? No, no, and, I think, no.

I'm kind of biased, anyway, what with having a complete hatred of Our Dave. Let's face it, Blunkett could propose that people be nicer to each other, and I'd be looking for an ulterior motive.

I mean, I have a driving license. And utility bills. And a bank account. I'm not exactly averse to letting people find out who I am. But the whole idea of having to carry ID (which, I know, is not supposed to be compulsory... but just you wait...) makes me think of someone saying "Your papers, please... they are not in order" in a comedy German accent.

There's no need for it. It won't achieve anything. And I sure as fuck don't wanna pay for it when I'm not allowed to see my taxes go towards health, education, or any of the stuff I'm actually paying them for.
 
 
gingerbop
12:08 / 24.05.03
I dont have a problem with the whole idea: suppose i just see it as an easy way to show you are who you are (although for that to work, it'd have to include an iris scan on the microchip, and there'd have to be iris scanners all over the shop). Loads of European countries have introduced them with no major tragedies.

They could also include your national insurance, driving liscence, public transport passes, and have the possibility in assisting e-voting. Medical records could also be included, including serious allegies, criminal records (which would have stopped the teacher crisis last summer), bla bla bla.

Its the Big-Brother opposition crew that annoy me- Every day we are filmed by dozens of security cameras all over the place, sometimes without even knowing they're there. If they dont pose a threat to our privicy, i dont see how a little piece of plastic does so any more.

Blunketts idea, however, is for an opt-in entitlement card scheme, if I am correct. I mean... really... opt in? If they're gonna do it at all, they may as well do the whole shibang and make it compulsory or the benefits will be minimal.

Im scared: has the goverment brainwashed me?
 
 
Strange Machine Vs The Virus with Shoes
14:12 / 24.05.03
I’ve got my anarchist pants on today, so beware. I hate the idea of I.D. cards and will be the first to burn it in front of TV cameras and parliament (I see this day coming in my minds eye). Why the fuck should I show anyone who I am? Passports are bad enough. Most of this shit began in the 20th C. It’s just another step towards a beaurocratic and economic slavery. We’ll soon have numbers on our arms like what the nazis did to the Jews. The way these things work, they’ll probably be called “freedom” cards. And to pay for the fucking things? It’s taking the piss.
 
 
Strange Machine Vs The Virus with Shoes
14:18 / 24.05.03
Rant ahead.



They treat us like farmed animals, these politicians and police ect. Anyone with any self-respect will want to destroy this society. Our glorious civilisation. It’s built on shit, run by shitheads. Pigs eat their own shit and so do the rich and we are the shit
 
 
gingerbop
17:39 / 25.05.03
Goodness me- they are rather large anarchy-pants. They're not even flowery ones.
 
 
Peach Pie
16:06 / 10.06.05
Do you remember every household in Britain being pamphleted with an anti-terror booklet?
 
 
Peach Pie
16:07 / 10.06.05
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/26_07_04_terror.pdf
 
 
All Acting Regiment
16:26 / 10.06.05
The current climate- fear of terrorism- is an absolute gift to anyone trying to introduce a cull of civil rights. As most of you will know, Climates of Fear always are.

At the moment, though, this boon seems to have been cancelled out by the cost, but that doesn't make me complacent. Rather, I think we'll see even more "threats from terrorists", prominent training exercises and propaganda such as those totally useless concrete blocks outside the Government buildings (Terrorists don't drive tanks, do they?).

Its the Big-Brother opposition crew that annoy me- Every day we are filmed by dozens of security cameras all over the place, sometimes without even knowing they're there. If they dont pose a threat to our privicy, i dont see how a little piece of plastic does so any more.

But Ginger- they're not just little peices of plastic, they're information rich, and information is power. Simple as.
 
 
Peach Pie
09:00 / 11.06.05
remember too that time when a barrage of tanks were sent to patrol heathrow airport to protect against a non-existent terrorist?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
11:12 / 11.06.05
If you started shooting tank guns in an airport you'd potentially cause more damage than a terrorist could.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
13:49 / 11.06.05
Costs for ID Cards go higher, and they haven't even factored in the usual increases in time and money that any Government IT project costs.

The cost of £93 for a passport and a biometric ID card given by the government in the regulatory impact assessment of the Identity Cards Bill last month was widely assumed by many to be the fee it will charge to citizens for carrying a card. But Home Office minister Tony McNulty has now confirmed that figure is just the unit cost of producing a passport and ID card "based on 2005 to 2006 prices" and that the actual charge to each citizen for carrying one will depend on "future policy decisions".

How far will the UK 'Safety Tax' go up to? Watch this space...
 
 
electricinca
18:23 / 13.06.05
If you care about the intorduction of ID cards in the UK I would urge you to go to Pledgebank and sign up to the following pledge.

"I will refuse to register for an ID card but only if 3,000,000 people will sign up."

Join me for a bit of civil disobedience in 18 months time.

More vociferous opponents of the ID card may wish to sign this pledge also

"I will refuse to register for an ID card and will donate £10 to a legal defence fund but only if 10,000 other people will also make this same pledge."
 
 
Supaglue
16:00 / 15.06.05
Gotta disagree with you gingerbop. Excuse me for repition of other posts and spurious unsubstantiated
claims, but I'm in a hurry, so bear with me..

First of all, the whole principle of a free state is that the government exercises a passive control with minimal interference, as enshrined in the Human Rights Act ('minimal interference' is the phrase used in the act, I think). Its another step towards a police state where control is active. This is always a controversial move - look at the abuse of current stop and search powers by the police. If they haven't already been abused in various ways, especially regarding , then 'anti-terrrorist' ID cards provide another avenue for the authorities to do so. Taking another perspective, one of the reasons for ID cards abolished in the 50s was the damage they did in relations between police and the public.

Then there's the cost... £1.6 billion was quoted by Fridge in the opening post, but I've also read in excess of £5 or 6 Billion. Couldn't this be better spent fighting terrorists in other ways? The largest threat of terrorism in the UK over the last 20 years has probably been from the IRA in one form or another, yet the call for cards was never as vehemently argued for when they were at at their peak.

Even £1.6 Billion is an awful lot of money that could be spent in a variety of more efficient ways.

Couple that to the inevitable computer system and administration fuck ups (£x million already lost in Tax & revenue computers that don't work, Criminal Records Office IT systems that don't work - which is the real reason, by the way, for the teacher strike last year you mentioned Ginger - etc, etc). The contract will go to the usual mob to run/finance it (Crapita/Securicor/Arthur Anderson Consulting/Price Waterhouse Cooper, and so on). I wouldn't be suprised to find a few vocal MPs in favour of ID cards having directorships in the companies that are after contracts on this massive gravy train.

Further impracticabilities include who will have the information to run these scans and how will they work? Its not been properly discussed - you say Gingerbop: 'gotta have an eye retina machine'[paraphrase], but its not like filling up a shopping trolley. This will cost further millions. Who will have them? What powers will institutions have to demand their use?

Then there's the 'baddies' themselves. Will it stop terrorist attacks per se? No. Whay should it? It may assist in their capture after the event I suppose, but even then I can't see any difference from techniques used now - the terrorists will still have ID cards as, previously mentioned. In fact, the whole scheme is invalidated by the need to use current methods of ID to get teh ID cards! If current ID is unsatisfactory, how can tehy use as the basis of a new security system?!

Then there's the info stored on them? What info? Who will have access? Various papers have been circulated but no-one really seems to know for sure. And we all know the potential to abuse when you have information stored about someone. Putting aside the fact of whether you trust this or any subsequent government (you can't!), it is very nearly impossible to keep this information out of a determined public - right from criminals who use the information, through to corporations who are after the demographic/topographic info or insurance companies finding out congenital defects of their clients (ropey examples perhaps, Will ocme up with better examples anotehr time!)

Further impracticalities include how are they going to administer fines or whatever for non-presentation of papers? Do you have 7 days to produce them like car insurance? If so, how will this stop anyone doing anything let alone terrorism?! Otherwise are they going to criminalise forgetful people/people who have lost or had stolen their card? It just doesn't make sense.


Well I'm rambling now. Again I'm sorry there's not much coherency in my post, but I've gotta dash, so I hope some of it made sense!

I'll try and get on later with links and stuff.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
10:46 / 01.07.05
All the information that'll be available via any ID card system is already available to police and government, and the Data Protection Act has built in loopholes allowing them to ignore it if they suspect you of... well, anything. Couple this to current terrorism and money laundering legislation, which is genuinely draconian and which no one seems to have noticed or cared about when it came in about three years ago (if the UK authorities believe you were in a position to notice signs of money laundering but did not report said signs to said authorities, they can charge you for failing to do so - a charge with a maximum jail term of five years - under the assumption that you should have noticed. This means that anyone working in or around any aspect of financial services, from bank clerks to lawyers to call centre employees and their managers, etc can be arrested and charged even if they didn't notice indications of money laundering, because the police reckon they should have) and effectively we don't have privacy or any of these rights people are blathering about us losing, and in fact lost them quite some time ago. Although many of the databases your information is on are not joined up, in practice they really don't need to be. Back in the day I used to find links between individuals and companies for a living when I worked in motor fraud investigation. Half an hour with the DVLA, MID, 192.com*, multimap, royalmail.co.uk, Companies House, MIAFTR, Equifax and CUE, and I'd have a list of names, companies and vehicles/insurance claims a mile long that I could give to a field investigator, and that was just the bog standard stuff that any competent commercial operator could get with a minimum of hassle. Imagine what the police/government could do if they felt like it (and weren't largely incompetent). Anything they liked, pretty much.

My main issue with ID cards is the cost/benefit ratio. When they can give us cogent, coherent reasons as to why and how they'd be useful, and when that seems to balance out the monstrous cost, I'll have another think about it. But don't think of it as a civil liberties issue. We gave them away years ago, and for the most part didn't even notice they were gone.

*Incidentally, 192.com's new functionality means that, with paid access (or free access via sponsorship on the site) you can type in a postcode and get the names and full addresses of everyone listed on the electoral roll at that postcode - often, all the inhabitants of any street in the country - which you can then use for any purpose you like. Since 192.com has the electoral roll for the last four years, it'll also show all previous tenants of those addresses listed for those years, so it's four-dimensional up to a point. Anyone wondering about what can be done with just a name and address... use your imagination, and bear in mind that junk mail and confidence trickery is the least of it.
 
  
Add Your Reply