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Characters' possibilities limited by their...

15:13 / 22.05.03

This is a spinoff of a thread in 'Film, TV and Theatre' which I felt I should probably move here, instead of rotting the thread some more.

I think that, in many cases, in order for a character to be free from certain stereotypes, he must be a white middle-aged male. It seems that any other 'catergory' (for want of a better term) of character is only used as required.

Female characters are often defined as mothers, sisters, lovers. Black characters as civil-activists, wise old mentors, or kids on the 'wild side' in need of guidance. It's rare to see a character who just happens to be female, or black, or Japanese, or whatever.

To be honest, I haven't given this a great deal of thought. But would be really curious to hear if people agree/disagree with this observation? Or to hear why you think it may be the case?

15:14 / 22.05.03

Forgot to include the thread, sorry:

http://www.barbelith.com/underground/topic.php?id=12580#post229202

15:52 / 22.05.03

I once heard of a film producer asking a scriptwriter why one particular character (a lawyer) "had to be" female: "She doesn't take her clothes off, and there's no love interest". So, yeah, I'd agree that narrative function is often determined by a character's particular divergences from the straight white male 'default' setting.

Which is not to say that straight white male characters don't display a particular set of characteristics themselves. Sometimes they don't, of course: Harry Potter, for instance, has no personality because every time he displays a character trait that might have negative elements it's shuffled off onto a character who has 'essential' characteristics that allow them to bear that trait (Snape gets his anger, because Snape is feminized, Orientalized & therefore hysterical; Hagrid gets his softer emotions, because Hagrid is racially other; Hermione gets his intelligence, because she is a girly swot)

16:08 / 22.05.03

Do you think that was deliberate? As in, did the producer in question have an evil agenda? Or was he honestly confused by the writer's choice?

I don't know if this is a concious effort on people's part, or is it so ingrained that it becomes invisible, institutionalised?

17:53 / 22.05.03

I once heard of a film producer asking a scriptwriter why one particular character (a lawyer) "had to be" female: "She doesn't take her clothes off, and there's no love interest". So, yeah, I'd agree that narrative function is often determined by a character's particular divergences from the straight white male 'default' setting.

It is important to remember that this 'default' white male is as much a fiction as the characters who take part in the fiction more explicitly. It's always nice to spot him, and try to understand why he's standing in the background in an awful lot of things.

07:20 / 23.05.03

Well, yeah. But all the characters are fiction. I just don't understand the reasoning behind all characters being white males unless the narrative requires something specifically else.

07:41 / 23.05.03

I would guess that there is an (unconscious?) awareness of the target audience in any work of fiction. A Hollywood movie aimed at 16-20 year old het. males isn't going to feature very many challenging character types, as that audience (rightly or wrongly) is perceived by the movie makers as having a certain value set. For the movie to 'do business' they are not going to challenge that value set too strongly. Ditto any demogrpahic.

In the book I have just published, the majority of the leads are female, with the 'weaker' characters being predominantly male (of course this is only a general trend in the book - there are exceptions). However, at no stage does it feel 'forced'. The players simply happen to be a certain gender - never does it drive the narrative - rather the other way round. They react to events in accordance with their value set. However, the audience for this book is NOT aimed at 16-20 y.o. males.

So, it can work both ways.

09:02 / 23.05.03

However, the audience for this book is NOT aimed at 16-20 y.o. males.
Who is it aimed at?

09:40 / 23.05.03

However, the audience for this book is NOT aimed at 16-20 y.o. males.
Who is it aimed at?

Perhaps I should have said it is not specifically aimed at any particular demographic - 16-20 y.o males was simply carried over from the paragraph above. It is sufficiently broad to be enjoyed by almost anyone.

My point really was that if you create something with a target audience in mind then that creation could be tailored (albeit uncosciously) at that market, and your characters along with it. However, if you simply let the story/movie etc. tell itself with no prospective audience in advance then your chances of characters that are truer to themselves is greater.

If there is no narrative reason for making a character male/female/black/white etc. then most writers would stick with what they know. Look at Stephen King. How many of his protagonists are white male writers? Is he sexist/racist becuase of this? I don't think so. I'm guessing he simply writes what he is comfortable with.

Ninjas make great pets

09:46 / 23.05.03

"I'm guessing he simply writes what he is comfortable with."

yep. Id agree with that. I know a writer who writes books with main characters being thirty-something women doing their thing.
and I know he's very comfortable with 30 someting women

10:07 / 23.05.03

I don't think so. I'm guessing he simply writes what he is comfortable with.
In that case, is it prejudiced when you try to buck the trend. When you start to delibrately include black/female/aisan characters? Not for any strong narrative reason, but just coz? The point that was made by arcboi here.

Say Halo Jones. A friend of mine lists the character as being her first role model in fiction. Because her being female, or rather her being identified as female, wasn't central to the plot. Written by a male writer.

Or It is sufficiently broad to be enjoyed by almost anyone. Does that mean you delibrately included female characters to broden the target market?

I'm guessing he simply writes what he is comfortable with. Though maybe you're right with that. Most 'media-creators' (artists, directors, writers) are white males so that's what they produce in their work for most incidental characters. The protagonists are more likely (perhaps) to be different, but then only to espouse whatever cause or point the producer wishes to draw upon.

ONLY NICE THINGS

10:09 / 23.05.03

I think Lullabooozler's point is a pretty good one - you go for the demographic that you think is most likely to be swayed into consumption. If your audience is primarily white men, go for white men - with a few exceptions (Will Smith, basically - possibly Samuel L Jackson?), the empathic gap seems to be too great to bridge. And the great thing about this is that Hollywood has so much cultural weight that you can do this without alienating other demographics, because white protagonists are pretty much a formal requirement.

However, black people, and black men in particular, do serve a number of very useful roles - father figures, notional superiors, wise men, jive-talking comic buffoons, street-smart sengalis, psychopomps. You name it. These roles add texture and colour - figuratively and literally - to your movie.

I'm looking forward to a similar broadening of the roles available for black women any second now. It's already begun, as evinced by the pleasant freedom open to the makers of the X-Men movies. If Haille Berry does indeed walk, they have options - they can remove her character, or, you know, replace her with Jada Pinkett Smith. Or Whoopi Goldberg. Or Ashsanti. It's all good.

10:36 / 23.05.03

because white protagonists are pretty much a formal requirement. Very much so, their cultural background is effectively invisible on the screen. At least when placed in a western setting. And Haus, your talent for sarcasm continues to impress and entertain. But the point about 'positive' stereotypes is kind've an old one.

But I'm trying not to talk about some evil Hollywood mogul off cackling in a corner with his marketeers. I'm more interested in Lullaboozler's book, or anything anybody else here may have created. I know when I tend to produce work, the default character is generally white and male. If I consider including a black character, two things are very delibrate on my part. 1) him being there at all. 2)that I don't refer to his colour or cultural background.

This really isn't a good way to be approaching work or the subject at hand. But I can continue to add to media that contains predominantly white/male characters, or I can delibrately try to alter that fact in a patronizing and contrived manner. Which is what typically leads to Morgan Freeman in Seven or Shawshank, etc. Both paths seem to propogate what currently exists. I think Alan Moore (as stated) manages work around this. Though I'm not sure how.

Is there a way out of this? Or does one just ignore it and hope it goes away?

10:41 / 23.05.03

Or It is sufficiently broad to be enjoyed by almost anyone.
Does that mean you delibrately included female characters to broden the target market?

Waxy,

I didn't write it - I just published it. Knowing the author fairly well, and having read his other book, I would hazard a guess that he writes female leads simply becuase there are not enough of them around. And I agree with that. There are not enough strong female roles/role models around, and if you don't have to butcher your narrative to make the lead a woman, then why not?

Of course, the tendency in the mainsteam with strong women is to have the character become 'vulnerable' at some point - as a kickass woman throughout challenges your audience again. The only exception I can immediately think of is Ripley in the Alien series. Strong female characterisation that works within the context of the story throughout.

And I agree completely about Halo Jones - she is an inspirational character to me - and I'm a 30 y.o. bloke. Her being female is not used as a plot point, making her stronger for it.

Haus's point about black men is spot on - how often have we seen the white cop with the black lieutenant ostensibly in charge? So often that it is a stereotype.

I hope that more diverse roles do emerge - it is more interesting watching/reading 'other' people's stories, whatever that otherness is.

10:53 / 23.05.03

I'd agree. The observation is absolutely spot on. But many of these roles were quite possibly written by people trying to avoid that very stereotype. But they became trapped in the 'loop' themselves. Your friend seems to have avoided this, as did Moore with Halo Jones, Promethea, etc.

I hope that more diverse roles do emerge - it is more interesting watching/reading 'other' people's stories, whatever that otherness is. Absolutely.