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Zionism

23:53 / 21.08.01

One of the controversies surrounding the upcoming UN conference on racism regards a proposed resolution condemning Zionism as a racist ideology.

Is Zionism racist in conception? Racist in practice? Is the whole accusation of racism just a set-up?

Is it even appropriate for non-Jews to judge Zionism as an ideal (reserving, of course, their right to judge how it is carried out)? Do we have to accept Alan Dershowitz's (deliberately inflammatory) assertion that "a world that closed its doors to Jews who sought escape from Hitler's ovens lacks the moral standing to complain about Israel's giving preference to Jews"? Is anti-Zionism inescapably antisemitic, as Martin Luther King claimed?

While the largely white liberal intelligentsia have always readily denounced their own whiteness in the face of African-American anger (back in the days of Malcolm they called it "the hate that hate produced," the chickens coming home to roost), an some argue that it's impossible for a person of African descent to be a "racist" in any meaningful sense, since that term implies a privileged position, that same intelligentsia denounces Zionism—a self-actualization movement for a people who have historically been as underprivileged as Anerican blacks—as a racist doctrine.

My mind is far from made up, but I wanted to hear your thoughts. Tread lightly, and watch your step.

00:28 / 22.08.01

I think, first of all, that Zionism as a State practice has been consistently racist in practice. That's not to say Zionism is necessarily racist in itself. More importantly, I think trying to label Zionism as racism without talking about colonialism, nationalism and sovereignty is just a way to displace systemic problems onto abstract individualised prejudices.

00:40 / 22.08.01

Two things:

One: Zionism is BS. According to the Hebrew religion one can not have the state of Israel until the coming of the messiah. This is why some heavily orthodox Jewish groups oppose Zionism as it exists today.

Two: Hitler, originally, could have been considered a Zionist. Before he decided on the complete and total extermination of the Jews (as well as other groups) he was considering moving them all to Madagascar. Also, Zionism was a strong movement before WW2 even began. Some of the major contributors to the movement were some of the worst anti-semites. The reason they supported Zionism was because they did not want Jews in their country.

15:25 / 22.08.01

Zionism, if one is uncomfortable with the term 'racist,' can cetainly be called 'ethnocentric.' The idea of a nation-state based on an ethnicity, here, Jewish roots, elsewhere, the other Zion of the Rastafari and Marcus Garvey, where the goal is a state of 'our own,' boy, it sure ain't an open democracy.

Two- it is certainly very, very tied in with European imperialism. Look up 'the Balfour Agreement' in your favorite resources.

Three- it has been and IS unremittingly racist in practice. Listen to the news- how often are 'horrible suicide bombers' mentioned here in the west? Well, look at the figures- what about pregnant Palestinian women being refused a border check- and later her and her child die from it? What about Israeli settlers committed to taking over Palestinian lands, willing to die for it?

I won't tread lightly here. This injustice MUST stop.

15:26 / 22.08.01

Finally and briefly..... What the hell is wrong with UN security advisors? And who are the only nations against it? Yup- US and Israel.

15:31 / 22.08.01

It's weird -- the racism inherent in practical Zionism isn't outward, it's inward: if you're not one of us Chosen, get off the land.
Theoretically, it's a fine idea -- the same way we get Indian reservations and South Africa's homelands. That business is always a mess in the real world, though.
The foundation of Israel always seemed like a magical act on par with the rise of the Nazis - this kind of infliction of National Will on a population.

15:32 / 22.08.01

quote:Originally posted by Theo Kalypso:
I won't tread lightly here. This injustice MUST stop.

So where do all the Jews go, then?

17:51 / 22.08.01

the same place as the Palestinians had to go to when the state of israle was first instituted 51 years ago.

17:56 / 22.08.01

actually my views are a lot more complex (and probably fuzzily liberal) than my last post would have made out.

Ideally I'd like to see jerusalam made a protectorate of the UN (a situation which would be equally offensive to all and just as impractical).

07:36 / 30.08.01

Have you all neglected to notice that most nations around this lovely world would proudly call themselves ethnocentric?

It is only relatively recent practice that large numbers of peoples who originate from one place have settled in others, Eg China, Japan, France, Germany, most of Europe actually. I don't know much about African nationalism.

Why look at just one cultures problems. The issue is not whether the practice is ethnocentric or racist (interchangable in my book)of course it is.

The issue to be addressed is that fact the all of the worlds cultures maintain an us and them attitude. This is the fundamental dualism between maintaining the beauty and diversity of human culture and bigotry and intolerance.

Is Israel less justified in being ethnocentric beacuse it has only been around for a short time in its present form? Of course not its just easy to attack them, it always has been. The issue of government sanctioned atrocities is separate from a culures right to govern.

The issue is not Israel or any individual culture but the fact that governement is so fundamentally flawed at this time that obviously a new version of society needs to be implemented.

Humanity v2.001

[ 30-08-2001: Message edited by: synth ]