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DMT, Heaven & Hell theory

  
 
GenFu
16:15 / 15.05.03
Okay this is just a theory which I came up with after reading Huxley's Doors of Perception + Heaven & Hell:

DMT experiences have often been compared with near death experiences. It is believed that DMT can occur naturally in the brain (hence it is broken down so quickly), and probably does, at death. Psychedelic experiences such as those produced by DMT, can (depending on many factors) potentially be extremely pleasurable, or terrifying. DMT experiences have also been described as seeming to last for an extremely long time, even though they are relatively short (eg. 15-30mins). If when you die your brain produces a large enough amount of DMT, is it not possible that the last instant of your life could slow down to the point where it seemed infinite? And maybe, depending on your concience and the realisation of what you'd done with your life, you might potentially be trapped in your own (DMT) heaven or hell, for all enternity . Could this be a natural mechanism which evoled to make people 'good'? In some psychedelic experiences people claim to 'live the life of another person or being'. Could this explain re-incarnation?

First thing I should say is that I don't necessarily believe this theory is true, but it is kind of interesting to consider. It would be pretty harsh of your brain to send you to hell, not to mention what good would it do? Death's probably pretty painful generally (unless you get some of those other natural drugs going), so wouldn't that send everyone to hell? What if you felt guilty about things which weren't really your fault, or if you were an absolute bastard who just didn't give a shit anyway? On the plus side, if you got to DMT heaven, God could be a bunch of cheeky elves, super-intelligent aliens, or even a DJ if you wanted... but would I be allowed to play my Black Sabbath records?
 
 
LVX23
16:29 / 15.05.03
 
 
illmatic
16:53 / 15.05.03
Hmmm, I don't know about that but I think it's an interesting idea. I think the "timeless" quality of DMT comes from the fact that it opens up a different part of your consciousness. I've only tried it once, and it didn't feel particulary timeless to me, it's more that my experience and understanding of time seemed redundant, along with language funiily enough, the words I was using didn't make any sense to me, they felt like inadequate alien objects. Sorry if this sounds paradoxical but there you go. The way I've been explaining it to people since (no doubt turning the experience into a set formula response which has nothing to do with what happened) is that it felt like language and time were wallpaper, which simply was stripped away -along with the walls.

Implies that language and time are somehow linked - anyone care to comment? Actually thinking about it, this is one of things I don't like aobut DMT - it seems so intense, so alien, that it predisposes people to talk about it in a very Gnostic way ie. here/"there", there being machine elf hyperspace or wherever. What is it's use value, or it's practical implications for this world? Any ideas?
(None of this intended to diss Genfu, btw)

To drift back on topic for a second, I always think or Heaven or Hell as states we're in in this life. Perhaps another thread about the afterlife is called for?
 
 
LVX23
18:17 / 15.05.03
Re: Heaven & Hell

As Illmatic suggested these dualities are constructs of waking consciousness. Whatever you bring into psychedelic states will likely be presented to you on a much larger scale. Either you accept and get past your illusions, or you are trapped and devoured by them.

My personal experiences with DMT have all been positive, though there is a very distinct quality of Death ever present. This can be a positive thing, but it cannot also promote much fear. For me, DMT is like a rending of the veils, as if to say "Everything you believe is illusion... Here's what's really going on".
Definitely hyperspatial, timeless, and incredibly dense. The breakdown of language, I feel, is the transition from spoken codes to a language of Light, the perfect code, the Logos.

See Terence McKenna for more on these ideas...
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
18:20 / 15.05.03
Here's something to add to the question: if DMT is what sends you to heaven, hell, reincarnation, or Detroit, how much does it have to do with the reported "god switch"?
 
 
Neville Barker
18:39 / 15.05.03
Been awhile since I was on the DMT research track...this thread has no doubt set me in the mode to crack out Invisible Landscape and give it another once over, maybe bleeding into some of the other stuff I'm investigating now. One question, and if no one wants to touch it I whole heartedly understand, but I gotta ask because anywhere else I've asked I come up null. Where does one find DMT for ingestion? Any nods in the direction would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers
 
 
grant
18:47 / 15.05.03
The picture LVX23 posted up there is used as the cover image for Rick Strassman's DMT:The Spirit Molecule, which chronicles his officially sanctioned DMT research in the 1980s/90s.

It's cool stuff.

He also brings up the role DMT probably plays in the Near Death Experience... apparently, the pineal gland produces and/or regulates the content of DMT and melatonin in the brain.

The pineal being linked with the Third Eye....
 
 
kaymeg
18:56 / 15.05.03
If heaven/hell is a DMT trip occurring at the moment of death, how would the living find out about it? The closest thing I can come to for an explanation is that a mythos was built up around near-death experiences in small, tribal societies, which grew to be a common religious tenant. But I don't know how common near-death experiences were in the days before modern medicine.
 
 
Mr Tricks
19:37 / 15.05.03
to my knowledge... Ayuaska(sp?) is the closest equivalent to ingestable DMT. Granted you'd be in the relm of a 6+ hour journey then. The thing with smoking it is that it goes straight to the receptors in the brain and takes effect before your body can release M.A.O.'s to offset and metabolise it's effects...

enhibitors like Syrian Rue(sp?) have been used to prevent the brain's generation of M.A.O.s ala the Ayuaska or Yagge broths...


I fortunatley had buddhism on the brain at the time of my first DMT experience, which seemed to manifest a personal Bardo experience intersected with the Self-transorming-Machine-elves in Hyperspace. Similar to Salvia, much of the experiences occur in a post-linguistic state and thus tend to break down upon discription.

Afterwards I felt as if a perfectly NEW "room" had been opend in my brain that existed in a space halfway between my pineal & pituitary glands and extending about 12" past my brow.

If ever you have the chance DMT+Salvia=__________!!!

I've also read studies of Yogi master types having their Brain patturns recorded Before/Durring&After a DMT experience with no decernable difference shown. It could then be inferred that a lifetime of meditation could lead to a DMT trip 24/7... enlightenment?

So yeah... I think a DMT journey can be very influenced by the thoughts/mythology carried along. The nature of our consciouness seems to include attempts to "contain" experiences into a Language/symbol system, while the effect of a substance like DMT works tomove the brain beyond that mechanism. How one "resolves" that difference could go along way towards the "tone" of the experience; Heaven, Hell, Hyperspace or the Star Wars Cantina (as was the experience of a friend)
 
 
Salamander
19:46 / 15.05.03
The Heaven & Hell question also presupposes a strictly biological interpretation of the expieriances, And I've always felt there was more too it, but if it were true, then I suppose anyone rocking with good vibes when ze died would go to the heaven state, even if ze were a jerk. DMT is reportedly weirder than that though. People most often report expieriances which take them completely by surprise and do not let them stay in their comfortable world veiw, so maybe the jerk would go to hell, or maybe his conscousness does leave his body, I don't know, I've never died and I've never done DMT. I feel like a virgin talking about sex.
 
 
LVX23
23:09 / 15.05.03
A couple of notes regarding Ayahuasca, Syrian Rue, and MAO.

Eating DMT fails because monoamine oxidase in the gut metabolises the tryptamine into secondary compounds which lack any psychoactivity. Eating an MAO inhibitor like Syrian Rue an hour or so before will block the tryptamine oxidation and allow it to pass into the bloodstream to the brain. However, note that MAO inhibitors in general have psychoactive effects (they were at one time prescribed as anti-depressants) and will influence the quality of the experience. Syrian Rue not only has anti-depressant qualities but is also a mildly-acting hallucinogen in itself. Try it with psilocybe or LSD for a much deeper and ancient experience (take about 3 gel caps full an hour or so before ingestion).

Also note that ingesting anything that is normally smoked has the effect of stretching out the experience making it both more manageable and less escapable. DMT taken orally results in a much longer journey, but one that unfolds more slowly and wraps itself in the archetypes and dreams of the user. The experience blends more with waking reality, as opposed to the rocket blast of smoked DMT which can often return the user to earth with a feeling not unlike taking a heavy nitrous hit - you know you experienced something but it's difficult to retain any concrete memories.

As far as Ayahuasca is concerned, the core component is the Banisteriopsis vine (Vine of the Soul) which delivers the MAOI and offers an experience akin to Syrian Rue. But the phenomenal element of what is currently considered to be the full ayahuasca experience is provided by any number of secondary plant admixtures, most of which contain varying amounts of DMT. Similarly, the so-called pharmahuasca is a mixture of isolated harmaline and synthetic DMT, sometimes available to us urban shaman. Jonathan Ott is a great source for this info and his book Ayahuasca Analogues describes many common plant species known to contain DMT (like Acacia).

I had an opportunity several years ago to ingest what I was told was "Ayahuasca" from Reed College in Oregon. I shared the goods with 7 friends. I can tell you it is still the most profoundly powerful and mind-blowing experience I've ever had. Leopards, telepathy, insect warriors, trees standing as sentinel entities, merging with a black pyramid, living amongst the thousands of birbs around our house at sunrise hearing and feeling each one distinctly, and living with the elements in awe and splendour wrought before me on every facet of the world. Indescribable beyond these mere words.

Whatever it is about DMT and Ayahuasca, I agree with McKenna that they are invaluable keys to understanding our place in the biosphere and in the greater dimensions of Reality.
 
 
LVX23
23:48 / 15.05.03
Oh, BTW: If you plan on eating any MAOI's, fast for the whole day, i.e. 8 hours before & 8 after. MAOI's have powerful effects when combined with foods containing Tyramine (Wine, cheese, among others). In the extreme the interaction can result in a fatal hypertensive crisis. Fasting is not essential if you do the reading and make sure you don't eat tyramine-containing foods. Also, definitely don't mix with MDMA or any other amphetamines.

Common MAOI's:
Banisteriopsis caapi
Peganum harmala (Syrian Rue)
Yohimbe
Moclobemide
Harmala/harmaline
Deprenyl

Foods to avoid with MAOI's

Drugs to avoid with MAOI's
 
 
klint
03:29 / 16.05.03
Neville, I'm asssuming by "ingestible" you mean "non-endogenous" instead of orally consumable as the other have assumed.

In this case you should be aware, if you're not, that DMT is illegal in the US, Canada, and the UK and probably many other places. This means you would almost certainly have to pursue the black market for the stuff.

In an old interview in Mondo 2000, someone asked Terrence McKenna where to go DMT (I've managed to find every issue of Mondo I own except this one... it's the interview with Xandor). If memory serves correct, first he makes a comment about it being funny that Mondo was asking *him* where to get DMT (Mondo 2000 were great advocates of the stuff). Then all he says regarding it is that it's a fairly simple synthesis.

Erowid.org has a bunch of information on DMT.

While Ayahuasca itself is technically illegal, the plants needed to make it can be ordered from various places online.
 
 
klint
03:32 / 16.05.03
To clarify before anyone gets too excited and does something stupid:

McKenna didn't mean it was easy for just anyone to systhesize. He meant it would be easy for a professional chemist. He went on to say that he was disappointed that there was so little DMT available on the black market at raves and such.
 
 
GenFu
10:35 / 16.05.03
Has anyone tried a method such as this:
http://www.spiritplants.com/articles/DMT.htm
Apparently a crude alkaliod extraction is also possible using just polar/non-polar solvents (similar to LSA extraction).
 
 
Simplist
17:55 / 16.05.03
I've been intending to try the Phalaris grass extraction for some time now, as the source material is inexpensive, easily grown and best of all legal (although said legality ends abruptly when the refinement process is completed). It's likely to be a while (my living situation is currently in flux, so I can't even start the growing phase for at least a few months), but I'll certainly post my results should the experiment bear fruit.
 
 
Mr Tricks
20:11 / 16.05.03
Great posts LVX23:
Props on the Syrian Rue (A.K.A. Serious Ruin) info...

Personal experience of a hefty table-spoon of the ground stuff numbers amongst a few VERY PROFOUND experiences...

up there with DMT, Salvia and a few major 'shroom missions...

Years ago a friend created a Denatured Alcohol distillation of a plant called "something-Daga." After evaporating the Alcohol the "resin" was spunged up on a quality GREEN-BUD for smoking later... VERY FUN indeed...


I also attended one of Terrance Mckenna's last public lectures in San Fransicso. Some-one asked him a similar question about locating DMT. His responce was hilarious... essentually:
"I don't live in the area anymore, I wouldn't know. HOWEVER, look around you considering the nature of our dialogue I'm sure someone here could lead you in the proper direction. Introduce yourself."
 
 
captain piss
09:51 / 18.05.03
Yeah, I’ve been looking out for DMT for a while but so far no dice (or rather no “self-dribbling, jewelled Faberge eggs of hyperspace”- sorry, keen reader of McKenna a couple of years ago).
I’m interested to hear that it apparently dovetails with some of the accounts of near death experiences. A close friend of my Dad’s told me last week about his own NDE, which he had four years ago. This sounds like it was a very blissed-out experience, which has given him an incredible feeling of comfort in his life since. Given that it followed a very nasty accident, it perhaps goes against the wisdom of good or bad vibes at the time of death predisposing an experience of similar emotional hue.
But anyway, just to try and summarise (and I should add that the guy in question is normally a very straight-talking, unemotional sort) he recounted flying above his body, looking down at himself and the medical staff working on him. Soon after this he seems to have had the sensation of flying somewhere and remembers being kind of chaperoned by small balls of light, or something similar, to a place (like another planet, he said) that was filled with pyramids, as far as the eye could see. He said it felt like he was in the company of a huge number of other entities and there was a very loving vibe, like he’d finally come home (sniff). When waking, he could only communicate with the intensive care staff via pen and paper, because of all the tubes and things, and he told them that he felt great as he’d found out where he was going to go when he died (!)
Interesting to mesh some of the aspects of this NDE with your DMT account, LVX23 (which made me feel like I was tripping as I read it)– the appearance of pyramids, for instance, is something I’m sure I've heard once or twice in relation to these kinds of experiences.
 
 
LVX23
17:03 / 18.05.03
My wife smoked it around the time that her father was dying of ALS. We were on the edge of a river with friends. As she started to return to earth she was laughing and crying, and had an overwhelming feeling of knowing where her father was going, as if she were seeing heaven itself, but not in the white-clouds-and-angels sense, but more like the seeing into the plenum of hyperspace, the field of Spirit, as it were. She told her father about it and to this day it was the single experience that allowed her to let him go. "I could see the Big point and the Little point, and it was all the same."

Afterwards she said that through her closed eyes she could see shadows of us standing over her and watching her, as if to make sure she was ok. We had to tell her that it wasn't us she saw, as we were all lying on the sand alongside her.

My ayahuasca pyramid experience was a vision of a giant black pyramid hovering in space, it glistened and gleamed with light though it's surface was a void. Towards the top was a golden Eye of Horus and as the pyramid began to spin, the Eye stayed immobile, just staring at me until it began to absorb me completely. The Eye was me and I was the Eye, looking at my Overself in a fixed gaze of total Unity. I suffered the fault of the mystic and declared "Wow" as my amazement got the best of me and the vision receded and disappeared.
 
  
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