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Question about London

04:08 / 14.05.03

I'm writing a story with a Pakistani character who runs a moderately prosperous import/export wholesale business in London. I don't know much about London that I didn't read in From Hell or see in Austen Powers, but I imagine a Pakistani 'hood rather like Chinatown in NYC. What's his neighborhood like, does he mix much with white people, does he pay taxes, etc? Your help is greatly appreciated.

pointless and uncalled for

06:52 / 14.05.03

There is no specific "Pakistani 'hood" so to speak. There are however a number of peak ethnic density locations (says potus in an attempt to be PC and managing only to mangle the English language beyond recognition).

Pick one and I will happily tell you about it.

07:45 / 14.05.03

Good bit into East London, you get a lot of Aisan areas. They're a mixture of Indian, Pakistani, Bengali, etc. ('etc' is to cut it short, not to be dismissive, before I get hopped on). Some areas it's unusual to hear English being spoken, and I'd estimate about 1 in every 80 or so peopel are white. Powerful sense of community, everyone knows everyone else. Where they work and where they're from (especially if you're a girl). So it's unlikely your character would have many white friends. He might well know a few, but probably not that close.

Taxes as far as I know he doesn't have to pay. Though there is a loophole in UK law where the same amount is paid, it's just not called tax. But I'm not sure about that at all.

Good curries, but all the other food sucks.

If you look at a tube map, the stops you're looking for are around Plaistow, Upton Park and Manor Park. Upton park especially leads onto Green St. Which is the one of the world's foremost retail areas for gold and sarees (as in Bollywood stars fly who to London buy their clothes in Green St).

It's also in Newham, which is one of the poorest boroughs in the UK (or so I'm told by residents). Which shows in the upkeep of the area. There aren't any speed ramps around the schools which are evident in most other area of London.

Oddly, Westham Park is one of the nicest and most well-kept parks in the city. And is always full of dads playing football with their kids, teenagers walking around hand-in-hand and kissing behind the flowers, and old folk bowling.

The whole area is starkly contrasted by Canary Wharf and Canning Town, which are just South. Canary Wharf is the big-ass financial district of the next 10 gizillion years. Canning Town is a rough, quite ugly place (in my opinion), that's been torn down and replaced with big roads and exhibition centres (the residents being driven out by rising prices).

Links are:

http://www.newham.gov.uk
http://www.newham.gov.uk/content/Leisure/see_do_newham.jsp
http://www.whufc.com/
http://www.london-docklands.co.uk/tours/dogs/toursdog.htm

07:53 / 14.05.03

Oh, and if you pick a particular area these sites might come in handy to keep it current:

http://www.myvillagelondon.co.uk/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/whereyoulive/markets/east.shtml

http://www.britishconsulate.org.hk/english/abtbri/aboutbri.htm
might help with tax information, etc.

16:12 / 14.05.03

I can't very well pick one, potus, I don't know what they are! I'm dimly aware of a place called Picadilly, where evidently in the 1960s international superspies put on showstopping dance numbers. Other than that, I'm afraid I'm in the dark. I certainly didn't mean to be PI.

Waxy Dan, I thank you kindly.

18:08 / 14.05.03

Bits of north London are also suitable. Round where I lived (Seven Sisters) there were lots of import/export type firms, mostly concentrating on clothes. (Have you read White Teeth BTW?)

As to mixing and social things, I think it would depend a lot on what sort of clientele the business had, how successful it was, how good the guy's English was, whether he was a new immigrant or had grown up in the area... if it was a business that depended a lot on links to Pakistan and dealt with other immigrants in London, I'd imagine he'd mostly have close links with the immigrant community. Not quite sure exactly what his status is.

19:49 / 14.05.03

Me, either. This is a fact-finding mission.

Whisky Priestess

20:30 / 14.05.03

Brick Lane (central London) near Shoreditch and Aldgate is definitely a subcontinental area, althoiugh Pakistani or Bangladeshi I cannot say for sure.

If your hero was a legitimate, hard-working, law-abising businessman he would make damn sure to pay taxes. As an import/exporter he would certainly have a lot of contact with white folks thru business, but probably a lot less socially, esp if he lived in a big Pakistani area.

Dalston (Northeast London), which is something of a shithole full of warehouses and, weirdly, a really nice theatre and art gallery, has the right ring to it but I think it's pretty equally divided between Pakistani and Turkish communities. Makes for interesting tensions though.

08:02 / 15.05.03

Brick Lane's Bengali isn't it?
Amazing place, especially as all the public signs (street names, hospital signs, etc.) are in English and Bengali (if Bengali is language? I'm really very ignorant of languages).
Also that the two cultures appear to mix so well and easily, while still retaining a definite sense of individual identity (Brick Lane is also the 'coolest' spot in London - lots of second hand clothes shops, and public loos converted into bars, etc.)

ONLY NICE THINGS

08:34 / 15.05.03

The community in Brick Lane is largely Bangladeshi, I think - there is an attempt to rename Spitalfields "Banglatown", as a kind of Chinatowny tourist thing. I think the street signs are in Urdu - possibly Hindi? Not sure....they're Devanagari characters, though, aren't they? Whereas the script for Urdu is Arabic....Haven't been there for a few months.... And, as far as I can tell, the white and Bangladeshi communities don't mix *at all*, which is actually quite impressive given that they share a street - as a rough measure, you have wholesalers and Bangladeshi businesses more towards the southern end of Brick Lane, towards Whitechapel, a band of curry restaurants and then some scenester bars, art galleries and shops north of Shoreditch station.

Wow - this is like reading about an entirely different London...

pointless and uncalled for

08:55 / 15.05.03

Although, from experience, Pakistani, or indeed most Asian areas tend not to be as seperatist as Chinatown, which veers into the by/for construct.

There is a Asian community in most districts of London, although this less common in the west-central side.

It's worth mentioning that the image of Asian England as run-down, dirty, ex-council, poor is the product of a stereotype formed in the mid-twentieth century, created by a mix of cultural divisions and ideals on both sides.

ONLY NICE THINGS

09:14 / 15.05.03

Hmmmm. London has a Chinese population of, IIRC, about 63,000 people, almost none of whom actually live in Chinatown. I think it's a different setup, basically.

pointless and uncalled for

09:35 / 15.05.03

Absolutely, I was refering to Chinatown(s) as an entity as opposed to the entire Anglo-Chinese population.

ONLY NICE THINGS

09:46 / 15.05.03

I don't get it. Chinatown is a tourist attraction slap-bang in the middle of the West End, with a shedload of chinese restaurants and some Chinese-interest shops. I wouldn't describe it as "separatist". In fact, the drive to rename the Spitalfields area "Banglatown" seems to be driven by restauranteurs in the area, who want to get the same kind of effect.

pointless and uncalled for

10:04 / 15.05.03

Fair enough but Chinatown, to the best of my knowledge, was never intended as a tourist attraction. I became one because it attracted a lot of interest as it developed. Sure it has capitalised on its own popularity but I was under the impression that it kind of occured as a place where immigrant Chinese interests were supported and protected, hence the seperatism.

10:18 / 15.05.03

Short History of London's Chinatown

Apparently, Chinatown didn't really get going until the 50's when the popularity of Eastern foods had risen, owing to British soldiers serving in the Far East during the Second World War.

pointless and uncalled for

10:35 / 15.05.03

More or less supports my point. But I do regret use of the word seperatism without first reading the seperatist thread.

10:40 / 15.05.03

It's worth mentioning that the image of Asian England as run-down, dirty, ex-council, poor is is spot on in some areas. This is not to make any kind of racist connection on how 'dirt and run-down areas' follow from an ethnic group. Quite the reverse, I think these areas tend to be 'let go' and have less money invested in them because of the ethnicity of the residents.

Or at least, in the time I've been living in London, it's been very hard not to suspect a direct connection between white skin and government investment. I'm not a native though, am I wrong in presuming this?

14:36 / 15.05.03

In New York, anyway, the cause and effect seems to run the other way: immigrants move into run-down neighborhoods because they've just spent a lot of money coming here and can afford to live there for a few years. Ideally, they'll put their finances together and move out to Queens or Jersey -- or return home, which brings up the question of how interested they are in the upkeep of a place they consider a temporary residence. Upscale, "white" neighborhoods get more public maintainance because the people living there have better connections to local government. The same effect can be seen in Harlem, where over the last twenty years or so there's been an increase in the number of the area's representatives that actually come from that area, and it's been improving drastically over the last decade. It's a completely different place now from where Lou Reed used to buy heroin. However, Williamsburg, which is packed-to-bursting with rich white people, is one of the shittiest neighborhoods around in terms of infrastructure and services, because most of the rich people living there have moved to the city in the last 5 years.

Anyway, maybe I triggered this end of the discussion by suggesting that my Pakistani businessman doesn't pay his taxes. He is supposed to represent a gray area between law-abiding and community-protecting.

15:11 / 15.05.03

Ideally, they'll put their finances together and move out to Queens or Jersey

I should note, this may be the origin intention, but when an ethnic character emerges in a neighborhood this can change. My stepfather, a Russian immigrant, moved into the Lower East Side as a teenager, intending to move on Greenpoint then maybe the South -- he wanted to live somewhere warm. But he ended up living there all his life, because the character of the place became too important to him.

Way off topic.