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Fucking fucking fucking quotation marks fucking AAAARGH

 
  

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ONLY NICE THINGS
00:17 / 14.05.03
I hate quotation marks. Or inverted commas. Call them what you want.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
00:57 / 14.05.03
Oh joy of joys, the topic abstract used correctly. All questions answered, all curiosity removed, one could weep from the shock of it all.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
01:18 / 14.05.03
I thank you.

For the incurious, the topic abstract of this thread reads:

When I am dictator of the universe, all will be oratio obliqua.

Allow me to explain.

The humble inverted comma is ruining my life. Here I am, a professional writer, one who makes a living, if you can call it living, from the work of words, placed in order (if you can call it work).

Now, recently I find myself in the world of direct speech. Fowler states, although he recognises the controversy, that the single inverted comma is the traditional way to open and close direct quotation, and that quotations within the quotation use the double inverted comma. Thus:

Haus said, 'You are a cock. As is the scabrous filthbeast occasionally and with the soul of abbreviation described by the sailors whose foullest whorehouses she frequents as "your mother".'

The Oxford Guide to English Usage concurs.

Now, instinct, because I was taught by fools, tells me rather that one should use the double quotation mark at the start of oratio recta, and never was an arsing thing so well titled, and the single within, thus drawing attention to the directness of the speech at the start and end with the bolder mark. Fowler admits of this possibly.

This ambiguity has percolated around my head for a decade now and it's DOING MY PLUMS.

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK.
"FUUUUUUUUUUUUCK," he said.
'To use his own vernacular, what a "fucking pile of shit",' opined Algy.

Thank you for listening.
 
 
Mazarine
01:46 / 14.05.03
Well, at least now you have company in your misery, as I think you've thrown at least Anna and myself into a world of doubt. First agendas, now this. -mope-
 
 
Shiva Mule
01:53 / 14.05.03
Its going to take me a while to wrap my head around this.
But when it does I have no doubt it will haunt my dreams.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
02:05 / 14.05.03
"Not at all" she stated with, sadly, only slight enthusiasm. "You see if I were writing fiction I should tend to put direct speech in to doubles but while writing essays in the style of academia I quote from books and thus use singles. I suppose I am following Fowler's rule but quite frankly I don't give a damn as long as I'm systematic.

"Now I tend to spend far more time debating the full stop. Specifically, inside or outside quotation marks at the end of a sentence?" With that out and in to the open she sat back in her chair and continued her cut and paste exercise. "Remarkable how absolutely hopeless this work is. I wish I'd spent a little more time writing the bloody thing!"
 
 
Perfect Tommy
04:11 / 14.05.03
I always thought doubles were preferred in the UK, and singles were preferred in the US. 'Cause I read a book in London when I was little and it had singles.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
04:14 / 14.05.03
Well, our rule of thumb is to use doubles, with singles for quotes within quotes.

"Well, yanno, he said 'You are a fuckhead!' to me," whinged Cedric.

etc.
 
 
Tezcatlipoca
05:25 / 14.05.03
Well, our rule of thumb is to use doubles, with singles for quotes within quotes.

I've always followed this rule and my editor has yet to complain (about the punctuation, leastways).

Incidentally, Anna, you seem to have a rogue double in the first line of your post.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
06:02 / 14.05.03
But then there's the whole fucked-up rule by which if it's a large chunk of quote that continues (albeit with a new direction), each paragraph that's still in the quote *doesn't* get an ending doubler (it gets nothing, in fact) until the END end par of the quote - though each new par gets a STARTING doubler.

Sigh.
 
 
Sax
06:18 / 14.05.03
Sax said: "It depends upon the style of the publication you are working for. For example, our stylebook (were we to have one) would suggest 'using double quotes to open the major quotes and then single inverted commas to include a quote-within-a-quote', like that."
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
06:20 / 14.05.03
No she doesn't.

You need to let the reader know the next paragraph is part of the quote, not some other crazy thing. The close quote, er, closes the quote.
 
 
Sax
06:20 / 14.05.03
As for the full stop...

Sax said: "In direct speech I would put the full stop inside the quote marks, like this."

But, he added, if using a mixture of reported speech and quotation he would put the period "outside the quotation".
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
06:24 / 14.05.03
She is missing a comma, though. AAAARGH!
 
 
Tryphena Absent
06:54 / 14.05.03
Me? I'm not good with commas, apostrophes or grammar in general.
 
 
Ganesh
07:37 / 14.05.03
I'm glad someone else's shit gets stomach-churningly fucked up by this grammatical mish-mash.

I've switched from singles to doubles and back again, but can never quite decide. Recently, on Barbelith, I've tacitly gone with using doubles if I'm directly quoting someone else (for example, "dignified exile" or "I quit again, Tony") and singles if we're in that nebulous hinterland of well-known phrases or terms not directly attributable to a particular author (such as 'pikey' or 'political correctness gone maaad').

I've no idea if this homegrown, instinct-driven method is in any way correct, or even 'correct'. Someone help me. Please.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
07:44 / 14.05.03
I was of the opinion that the single was just sheer laziness, or akin to the lack of "u" when a word is Americanised.

Subsequently, every instance in which I feel the need to use this gramatical tool has been double in nature without a second though.
 
 
sleazenation
08:15 / 14.05.03
This sounding suspiciously like the start of a barbelith stylesheet...
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
08:22 / 14.05.03
Stylesheet?

"Well if it's going to be that kind of party......'
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
08:31 / 14.05.03
I use doubles within singles, even when quoting the titles of academic articles, e.g.

Martine van Ittersum, ‘"Three moneths observations of the Low Countreys, especially Holland": Owen Felltham (c.1602-1668) and Anglo-Dutch relations in the seventeenth century’, Lias 27 & 28 (2000), pp.95-196

Word is never happy with this arrangement. I am never happy with putting the punctuation outside the quotation marks in the text of a piece, but there doesn't seem to be an option - especially when you have to insert footnotes as well. No one ever tells you the correct way of doing this and it is most annoying.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
08:37 / 14.05.03
Footnotes are best done in the footer as usual text. AltV H.

As a member of the throbbing frontal lobes community I would have thought that you just turn off the grammatical option of F7 as you are bound to know better.

Better to install Linux and use Open Office as it never tries to help.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
08:43 / 14.05.03
No, I mean it doesn't like the arrangement of the quotation marks... it always tries to makes the ones at the beginning of the inset quotation into the ones which should go at the end, if you see what I mean (surely there must be a more convenient way of describing them?)
 
 
Jub
08:44 / 14.05.03
I've just consulted my company's house style notes, and within the section about quotation marks it says the following:

Use single quotes
(For quotations within quotations use double quotes.)

Start quotations with a capital letter, usually preceded by a colon, or a comma, depending on the context. For example: She interrupted: `It was "and" I said, not "or".'

If a sentence is entirely composed of a quotation, the punctuation falls within the quotation marks; if a quotation is just part of a sentence, then the punctuation falls outside the quotes. (But any punctuation intrinsic to a quotation remains within the quotes.)
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
08:49 / 14.05.03
Yeah, I catch your drift.

Definitely should convert to Open Office. Sweetalk some Comp Sci into installing the lastest spin of RedHat for you and all your woes will be a distant memory.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:00 / 14.05.03
I'm using OpenOffice at the moment, if only because bastard bastard Word has died on me bastard bastard.

'Nesh - interesting one - quotation marks denote exact speech, therefore 'pikey', unless it is a quote from a single specific person, is prolly getting scarequoted or simply pulled out of the text - it's an improvisational use of the notation, but fair usage, tho' I don't see why the two should differ.

As per, K-C C is applying Fowler utterly correctly (although using the "logical" rather than "conventional" approach when it comes to punctuation at the end of the sentence). Bless her.

Incidentally, this meltdown began when I found myself having to use both single and doubles to denote the opening and closing of THE SAME BIT OF ORATIO RECTA. Y'see, that's just bad.
 
 
Cat Chant
10:03 / 14.05.03
I wouldn't sweat it, Haus - won't some poor hapless fucking copy-editor have to sort it out at the publisher's/editor's anyway according to their style sheet?

Sorry. Currently simultaneously copy-editing three different manuscripts for three different university presses, all of whom have different requirements for footnoting, bibliography and quotations. Since all three manuscripts are edited collections of essays and all the contributors have used their own sweet whim on whether to use the Harvard author-date system or the MLA system of endnoting, whether 'op. cit.' is acceptable, whether to use commas or full stops in edition information - and, for that matter, whether or not to include edition information for the works they cite - the proportion of my venom which can be spared for whether to use single or double quotes is extremely low.

Also, of course, they are cultural theorists so you are constantly having to check whether things are typos or neologisms, plus some of the clever little bastards have decided they have to have the whole text laid out in text boxes, with diagrams interspersed, that won't open on the office computer. And no academic ever answers hir fucking email.

Going now.
 
 
Cat Chant
10:08 / 14.05.03
there doesn't seem to be an option - especially when you have to insert footnotes as well. No one ever tells you the correct way of doing this and it is most annoying.

Unless you are quoting a complete sentence, or unless the footnote has to fall within a bracket, the convention is: quote; punctuation; footnote. (This is the Routledge way of doing it, anyway, which I tend to adopt.)

So:

Derrida writes: 'The "hymen" is a name for the undecidable'.[1]

Or:

The hymen (as Derrida has written[1]) is an undecidable.

where [1] is a footnote marker.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
10:43 / 14.05.03
I've been utterly inconsistent so far... the problem arises when I have a sentence with multiple clauses in, and when in one or more of those clauses there is a quotation. So, what to do in the following situation?

It was notorious among Jacobite pamphleteers that 'the Dutch run away with our Trade, and the French our Ships and Men'[1]; but Williamites, such as Lord Somers, countered such assertions: '... ‘tis a groundless supposition, though too often in the Mouths of such as are disaffected to the Government, That they run away with our Trade, since the contrary may be easily made out to an unprejudiced Mind’[2].

I think it would be too confusing to have the footnote markers outside the punctuation marking the end of the clause, so stick them in as shown. Alternatively I could learn to write less convoluted and clause-ridden sentences.
 
 
Not Here Still
12:24 / 14.05.03
NMA said that, when writing, he tends to use the construction -

NMA said: "This is how I use quotation marks even though others say 'you shouldn't,'
"I never realised the problems things like quotation mark's can cause but its' nowhere near as bad as certain other area's of grammar for doing peoples head's in, is it?" he added.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:51 / 14.05.03
What is it with you guys and cola? They dissolve a tooth if you leave it in overnight, you know.
 
 
The Falcon
15:36 / 14.05.03
What about "it's", "its'" and "its", eh?

Some people swear the middle one doesn't even exist. But sometimes I just feel the necessity for it.

I use too much punctuation. No-one busts the semicolon like me.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
15:52 / 14.05.03
And I am an abuser of emdashes.
 
 
Ninjas make great pets
19:48 / 14.05.03
Im just pleased Ive finally gotten the sales men to refer to it as an asterix (i cant spell by the way) and not "that star thingy".
Ampersand, on the other hand, is another kettle of fish altogether.
 
 
Who's your Tzaddi?
19:52 / 14.05.03
"You know what I would just love to see?" he asked no one in particular, "I would love to see Haus teaching an online engrish course..."
 
 
Ganesh
19:54 / 14.05.03
Or an asterisk, even.
 
  

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