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Computer & video games: art, trash or both?

 
 
GenFu
01:27 / 13.05.03
I was just wondering what opinions anyone else might have regarding the artistic value of computer & video games, and the potential for 'art' in this type of medium. Few games seem to transcend the level of trashy clone, though there are some which have a particularly creatively unique concept, style and approach. A couple of interesting examples to consider:
i) the ‘Doom’ & ‘Quake’ Games: - uniquely hellish & controversial.
ii) ‘Llamatron’ – 90s cult-classic psychedelic/absurd take on the ‘Robotron’ game.
Will my hopes for future 'Abstract-Psychedelic-Philosophical-Space-Shooters' which have no clear objectives (but unravel the mysteries of the universe), ever be fulfilled?
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
01:31 / 13.05.03
I think it's a medium where you *could* and *should* see all kinds of genuine "art", but often don't. It's an interesting new medium, a chance to do anything you can do in a movie but more, and then make it interactive.

Kind of like many comics - it should be the ultimate combination of art and writing, but often ends up being reiterative whatever-sells-best.

I guess anything's art if you want it to be, though. Even a crap game is, at least a little bit, creative. If the guy making it says it's art, then it's art. Could be bad art though.
 
 
at the scarwash
00:21 / 14.05.03
I think there are some games that almost make it. But if anything, they are an art like cooking is an art. Cooking is indubidably something that requires a strong aesthetic sense, and at its best is something that is challenging, exciting, and beautiful. But it's always done to please. No one ever says "this souffle is my statement on world hunger." I thik some video games are absoluely gorgeous. I have loved the design of Japanese role-playing games since the days of 16-bit home systems. Pac-Man and Super Mario Bros. are icons not only for their place in pop culture, but because they look good. Some are witty, even well-written. The Fallout series comes to mind, as do many of the best Infocom text-based games. I think GTA 3 did amazing things with the expansion of the possibilities of a game universe. But I don't think any of these examples succeed as art in the way that other forms can. They work in too much of a consumption-based industry to succeed. I also think that they are a bit too young, yet. I think in a few more years, maybe a video game could be a work of art.
 
 
at the scarwash
00:28 / 14.05.03
Oh, and I think I should add that while comics and pop music are also products of a consumption-based industry, they were built on pre-existing art forms. And it took quite a while in both of those cases for anyone to do "great" work.

I do think some aspects of video games work as art. Hip Tanaka (Metroid, Kid Icarus) is one of my favorite musicians. As I mentioned in my last post, I think that some early video games are amazing, design-wise. Super Mario Bros. 2 is one of the most startlingly beautiful works of pop Surrealism I have ever seen.
 
 
rakehell
01:27 / 14.05.03
Gen: I'm not sure if you've seen it, but it seems to fulfil most of the criteria you set down for a "'Abstract-Psychedelic-Philosophical-Space-Shooters' which [has] no clear objectives..."

Sure, there are objectives but they seem to be to make music and patterns. Plus if you finish a level you unlock the option of playing it again, but invulnerable, just to make music.

None of this makes any sense until you actually play it. The glory that is Rez.
 
 
fluid_state
16:50 / 14.05.03
Earlier threads: Videogame as a work of art? (couple pages, many pics) and Computer Games as art.
 
 
GenFu
23:33 / 14.05.03
Funny you should mention Rez...the ability to unlock features by completing the game several times over, coupled with plenty of tea & red-bull left me a jittering wreck after some six hours of non-stop play (or so i'm told..). I love the retro style of Rez, it's a bit like Tron (and loads of other stuff). The philosphical slant is pretty interesting too; in a way they manage to turn the shoot-em up theme on its head, since you're saving the boss at the end, rather than killing it. Weird fact: in Japan when it was released you could apparently get a pack which included: a trancevibrator (a rumble pack 10x more powerful than normal), glow sticks, some kind of neck-band, and eye drops to make your eyes dilate (it was that or herbal ecstacy I guess...).

With regards to the industry being driven by consumerism: one of the reasons why you perhaps don't see as many truly original and unique games is that the state of technology today requires a large team of people to make a game (as well as alot of money). 'Back in the day' (Atari ST fan..) a game could be made by an individual or small group of people, without funding, then released as shareware or public domain. While this is still possible (java applets anyone?), these games can't even begin to compete on the same level as commercial games. This is one of the reasons why 'Quake' was cool, because it was very easy for people to create their own mods for. I think it's a shame more games don't realise the code so people can do this (GTA could have vast potential), but i guess it isn't really practical or commercially viable. Mods still work within the 'standard' game formats (you can't turn Quake into an interactive abstract painting), but it is always interesting to see what weird ideas people come up with.

Like you say testpattern, I think games are probably just at best another form of interesting pop-culture at the moment - they don't really say that much more about modern existence (if thats what we expect of art), than any other consumer item. Some games are just great for what they are (like Super Mario Bros). It's interesting to see games that are self-aware parodies like 'Bangi-O', though. That's the kind of trait that suggests progression in the medium.

The only other thing I would say is that I think the actual basis of games is interesting. When computer games were invented, they very quickly moved on from Pong to Space Invaders and Pac-Man. Perhaps I'm reading too much into them, but they kinda reflect base human fears, maybe (eg. aliens invading, running away from stuff while eating stuff). This isn't really exclusive to games though; someone I know didn't want to watch lord-of-the-rings, because she didn't like the whole idea of making war entertainment . But this is a basis for alot of action films and computer games. On the one hand you've got the whole 'violent films & games' arguement, but then there's also the whole 'good vs evil' thing (George Bush style?(!)). Anyway Rez is interesting because it does twist this around - you're saving a super-computer thing. But does violence and immorality bother me in games? Not really - I like gibbing people in Quake, it's fun, it looks pretty, and it make a nice sound.
 
 
The Strobe
07:31 / 15.05.03
On the subject of Quake mods, then:

NPRQuake.

Non-Photorealistic Quake, to give it its full name. Plugin for GLQuake that basically changes the look to either blueprint, wireframe, or pencil. Playing Quake in what looks like a pencil drawing being reshaded in REAL TIME is a wonderfully surreal experience. Blueprint and Black-White a bit dull, but the Pencil Sketch mode is wonderful. Someone's University project, definitely worth a look.
 
 
The Strobe
07:33 / 15.05.03
And look: someone's done a cel-shading plugin for it.

Other things wrt Cel-Shading that are coming out and look quite stylish, I can't link to them but if you google you'll know what I mean: Killer 7, Viewtiful Joe, XIII. Which are hardboiled, very oblique action game; surreal cartoon game; cel-shaded FPS based on a French comic book. With panels for impressive shots, sound effects appearing in text, the works. Interesting fusion of stuff. Killer 7, though, looks the bomb.
 
 
DesignerJim
18:57 / 08.07.03
I think there's an art to creating computer games, but not necessarily that the games themselves have any 'artistic' value.

I do think, however, that with the 'net and hypertext, there's a potential niche for a sort of interactive story. I mean, there's a TON of online comics out there, and many of them are really quite well done. But I'd like to see something in-between a computer game and a graphic novel, something that gives you a story with enough plot and character depth to suck you in, and gives you some control over what happens in the story as well - perhaps you can suggest what a character should do next, or be given some dialogue options, etc. But it should be graphics-heavy, and use that mechanism to relate to the story and characters.

I think that would be wicked.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
01:30 / 09.07.03
This worries me. This really worries me.

I’ve been mulling this question over again recently. A mess of jumbled thoughts:

Nobody as yet has provided a single decent reason as to why we should care if games are ever accepted as art. I’m not convinced that the medium has much to gain from such a move. All it looks like is desperation to have ‘our’ hobby accepted by a wider audience.

Here’s my concern with that. In chasing the prize we lose sight of the things that are fundamentally important in a game. Designer Jim’s post is a corking example of this – the game you’re after has been produced many times under different guises. Dragon’s Lair. Road Warrior (and roughly 80% of the rest of the Mega CD’s content). Shenmue. Beautiful to look at. Absolute dogs to play. The player in each is effectively limited to following on-screen prompts or pressing a button to take the story down one of two branches. These titles aren’t videogames any more, and neither are they art. They’re the bastard offspring of overambition and a lack of understanding of what makes a videogame a videogame.

Problem: art, generally, isn’t interactive. Sure, there’s an element of interactivity in that the audience can bring their own interpretation to a piece, but that’s an entirely different kind of interactivity to the one provided by videogames. What criteria are we going to decide to judge a game on in order to decide if it’s deserving of being put on a pedestal as a shining example of the form? Visuals? Music? Effects? Maybe, but not solely. Back to the main point: games are interactive, and the best of the best always have one thing in common, one thing that’s oft-mentioned but seldom (if ever) defined. Gameplay. The enjoyment gained from taking part in a title. Sure, Killer 7 looks beautiful, but we’ve still not got the faintest idea how the player interacts with the world or even if those shots are supposed to represent the in-game visuals.

Ah, this post’s a mess. Let me try and get it straight in my own head…
 
 
Spatula Clarke
01:35 / 09.07.03
Will my hopes for future 'Abstract-Psychedelic-Philosophical-Space-Shooters' which have no clear objectives (but unravel the mysteries of the universe), ever be fulfilled?

Those games never went away. You've just got to make the effort to look for them.
 
 
at the scarwash
03:39 / 09.07.03
I think that the discussion of video games as art is important for two reasons, at least off of the top of my knotpiece.

Firstly, because videogames have thoroughly entrenched themselves in the aesthetics of at least two generations of artists. Tons of artists all over the world incorporate videogame-derived imagery into their works. The Superflats, Matthew Barney, the Delaware group in Japan, etc.

Secondly, because the potential for interactivity innate in the form begs to be harnessed for the purposes of art. you can do so goddamned much.

Oh yeah, and then I wouldn't feel so bad about playing a game for 12 hours straight. Which I did. Sunday. Jet Grind Radio. "But come on baby, it's art.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
18:56 / 10.07.03
C'mon! VIDEOGAMES! I'm going over to the Buffy thread where the real men are.
Aside from that: Video games have to capitalise on what they have that art does not: the interactivity that Randy mentioned. A painting will be the same every time you look at it. A game like GTA: Vice City, the closest anyone has ever come to fufilling the promise of interactive media, could (providing the technology is available) keep evolving. Let the code be a blank canvas that every player can scrawl their psyche on. The Mod community for quake is a good example, but it would be far better to create a game-code that could allow players to change the fundamentals of the game as they play.
Anyway...
Did I ever tell you I know Gen' in real life? Lemme tell y'all about the time when (-TRANSMISSION CUT FROM UNKNOWN SOURCE-)
 
 
Spatula Clarke
23:07 / 10.07.03
GTA: Vice City, the closest anyone has ever come to fufilling the promise of interactive media

What is it about Vice City that makes you think that?
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
23:37 / 10.07.03
A painting will be the same every time you look at it.

Is it, though? I can look at, say, a Francis Bacon painting and see different things I look at it. OR at the Anish Kapoor piece that's currently in my local art gallery. Physically, it's the same, but what I take from it each time is different.

Ditto computer games: they're coded. They're coded to behave in a particular way. There's no expansion of code on a PlayStation disc when you come back to it. Even mod packs change things little - they're additions to thousands of lines of code, but the game will continue to do exactly what it's been told to (bugs notwithstanding) - just as a painting will look the same as it did (weathering notwithstanding) the day it was painted.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
14:41 / 11.07.03
What I was saying earlier: paintings, sculptures change as the viewer changes. That's the same for everything out there. My appreciation of a novel changes each time I read it as I've changed, I've gained new experiences and have more to bring to it myself.

Actually, is the same *really* true of videogames?
 
 
Thjatsi
16:46 / 12.07.03
It isn't true of most video games. However, this is because of a lack of creativity on the designers' part, not because of something intrinsic to the medium. For example, I've found that my appreciation of "Deus Ex" and "Planescape: Torment" has increased in the last few years. There were a number of concepts in both games that I skipped past without thinking about the first time I played them.

It is true that the vast amount of computer games are just button pushing. However, the majority of movies and literature are almost as bad.
 
 
Shrug
19:07 / 12.07.03
All I can say is that I thought some of the cut-scenes in FFVII were beautiful! That in my mind means they're art... either that or I have bad taste.
@E.Randy Dupre
Surely both computer games and art can be considered an experience, in some of the more complex (not necessarily better) games you have a myriad of choices so your experience may differ. Does this fit your criteria for art?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
12:00 / 13.07.03
I don't think so. For one thing, I wasn't certain that I'd laid out any criteria for defining art, but re-reading my previous posts it seems I have. Maybe art is art because it allows the audience to paint their own experiences and interpretation over the top of it. In which case the example you suggest doesn't fit - those choices are all false, an illusion created by the designers. You're not necessarily bringing anything of your own to the experience.

Leaving that aside, though, what you've described there could quite easily be ineffective as a game - and, to me, it's far more important that a videogame plays well than that it's classed as art. A myriad of choices so your experience may differ could just be a number of branching storylines within one game, but how the player gets to steer themselves down any one of those branches is important: does ze get to feel as though the game is honestly reacting dynamically to hir involvement, or is it a more structured, limiting implementation, where the point at which the game branches is blatantly obvious?

It also presupposes that the only 'worthy' videogame is one that contains a lot of plot. Why limit ourselves like that? Surely one of the best things about the form is that it allows us to leave ideas about storyline and auothr-created menaing behind us?

Really though, I'm not at all keen on the use of the word 'art' as a value judgement. We don't have discussions in Books about whether a specific novel can be classed as art, or if a single can in Music. The reason for that is that those media are accepted for what they are and of cultural value.

I'm not saying I don't understand the reason why we keep having this discussion, by the way. There are distinct parallels to be drawn between the historical perception of videogames and that of, say, movies. For years movies were seen as a mindless passtime, good only for entertaining the childish or the uneducated, something that could never have any real importance because they only appealed to the working class - "and hell, if it's appealing to those people then there's no way it can have anything significant to bring us". TV and novels have been dismissed in precisely the same way, as has every new entertainment medium that's ever popped its head up. Look where that's got us - we mourn the ignorance that's lost us so many examples of early film and television. It's a source of constant amazement to me that those who complaing about comics not being accepted, or pop music being derided as shallow and inconsequential are prepared to remain ignorant of another medium and wave it away with exactly the same dismissals that they complain about elsewhere.

That doesn't mean that we're going to get videogames accepted by trying to define them as art. This need to equate certain games to high points in other media suggests to me that we ourselves are unconvinced of their worth - we do it as much to convince ourselves as we do others.

Didn't mean for this post to go on so long, nor for it to cover as many bases as it does, but I think it's all relevant to the original question. I'd like to read some replies from people who don't play videogames, but I suspect that once again the very presence of that word in the thread title will have ensured that most people have simply ignored it.
 
 
Shrug
12:11 / 13.07.03
Well one must agree that videogames are interactive at least. One must agree that they contain both a visual and aural aesthetic. Are they that unlike some of the installations you see in a gallery?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
14:23 / 13.07.03
Well one must agree that videogames are interactive at least.

Apologies. I realised that I may not have addressed this question clearly enough and edited my post accordingly, apparently while you were writing yours.

The interactivity you're talking about is a different beast from that which I and Roth (if I've read his post correctly) are talking about. A painting, for example, has an infinite number of meanings, the vast majority of which were probably not intended by its creator, because it can be viewed by an infinite number of people, each bringing their own interpretation to it. A videogame offering the player choices is not the same thing - it has a limited number of avenues that the player can explore, all of which were intended by its level designers.

I agree that there is a comparison to be drawn between videogames and installations that can be physically manipulated by the audience, but videogames offer a lot more than those installations. The difference, I think, lies in the intended purpose of each.
 
 
Shrug
20:23 / 13.07.03

The interactivity you're talking about is a different beast from that which I and Roth (if I've read his post correctly) are talking about. A painting, for example, has an infinite number of meanings, the vast majority of which were probably not intended by its creator, because it can be viewed by an infinite number of people, each bringing their own interpretation to it. A videogame offering the player choices is not the same thing - it has a limited number of avenues that the player can explore, all of which were intended by its level designers.

I agree that there is a comparison to be drawn between videogames and installations that can be physically manipulated by the audience, but videogames offer a lot more than those installations. The difference, I think, lies in the intended purpose of each.


Well okay..... okay I agree that both video games and art have very different purposes but video games can be appreciated as art just as much as anything can be appreciated as art. I suppose what I'm saying really leans towards "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" type argument i.e. so is art.

I also deny that all art must have layers of meaning, some art just "is".

Another thing that makes me think of videogames as Art is the amount of creative energy put into them. Could be I just see alot of things as art though.
 
  
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