Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.

Underground > Switchboard >

Time to join the Party

We're The Great Old Ones Now

10:39 / 12.05.03

I'm seriously considering joining the Labour Party - having heard Tony Benn saying again that sane people have to take it back. Anyone game for reforming the 'party of the Left'?

10:56 / 12.05.03

FWIW, I think that Benn is right. Both in his call for activists to stay in the party and his analysis of New Labour as a misrepresentative elite. Making Labour swing to the Left again is doubtless a crucial task in UK politics, but it'd be a thankless, long process.

Our Lady of The Two Towers

12:19 / 12.05.03

I can see his point of view, ISTM that when right-wingers get disillusioned with politics they go further to the right but stay in the political process, with the BHP or UKIP or somesuch, but when left-wingers get disillusioned they just drop out, hence the crumbling of the left in politics.

That said, I just can't join and give my money to Labour after Afghanistan/Iraq and now this Anti(Pro)-Discrimination bill. I have to guard what few principles I have.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

19:39 / 12.05.03

Lurid: "thankless"?
OLGFD: so you won't get involved because the act of not giving the Labour Party your money is more important than the attempt to reclaim it? How?

21:02 / 12.05.03

The problem is that it's been so heavily stuffed with clones. I'd be interested to see a strategy for actually getting to a position of influence within the party so that you could "reclaim" it. You'd need to build up a huge level of grassroots support - it could take decades to turn the leadership around.

I'm afraid that in my mind, now, my influence over my "representatives" is about the same as my influence over the board of BP. People could launch campaigns to "reclaim" corporations, too.

Tryphena Absent

22:47 / 12.05.03

Funny, I was trying to explain the idea of reclaiming Labour to a Socialist Worker the other day and he wasn't having any of it- something about everyone reputable backing away at the moment. If anything I really believe that people should be getting stuck in to the whole mess. It seems more and more likely that Blair's gonna be out sometime soon and the more left wingers flooding in the better chance of getting some small influence in the godforsaken political arena. I think we should all jump in feet first and try to turn the political tide.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

08:44 / 13.05.03

I'd love to arrange a takeover of the BP board. However, it's actually rather easier to take over a political party, and the board of a company is still required by law to maximise shareholder profits - in the States, there was a judgement to this effect not so long ago, essentially saying that any and all legal means must be sought by the board to make money - not, for example, protect the environment - or they were in breach.

Soooo...

09:15 / 13.05.03

"thankless"?

I was assuming that you would become pretty active at a local level and try to stir up support for a move to the left. Political activists can work hard and I think it is fair to say that such a job is often thankless, especially if you are pursuing an agenda that goes contrary to the leadership. It puts you in the position of either being ignored or, if you are lucky, labelled a trouble maker.

Of course, if your involvement is substantially less, then this won't apply. But it also makes it harder to influence the direction of the party.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

11:01 / 13.05.03

What I had in mind was more of a takeover than another tired group of people having coffee.

11:40 / 13.05.03

How about you lay out your takeover proposal in more detail, here, Nick, and then we'll all have more idea what you do have in mind?

We're The Great Old Ones Now

16:14 / 13.05.03

I need more information about the structure of party and numbers, but basically I was thinking of trying to take control of a convenient local-level segment, a la Michael Moore. I know there's quite a few others in the Holborn & St. Pancras voting area, but I have no idea what the local membership is - I suspect that's too large a bite for a first attempt, although thinking big is definitely called for, otherwise the whole enterprise looks pointless from the start. And yes, I'd need a manifesto of some kind, and some potential candidates - I'm a non-starter in that context. I'm talking about influencing candidate selections (either getting a real person up there or using a possible spoiler to require concessions).

More likely one would have to start at a lower level of the tree.

19:28 / 13.05.03

Sounds tricky, Nick. You could stir up a fair bit of resentment if you try to flood a local party like that. Potentially, you face getting kicked out for attempting such a takeover move. Then, if you get a candidate, campaign and get them in, it is possible that that person will be treated as someone to neutralise by the leadership. Even possible allies may view the hostile takeover unkindly.

I *think* what Tony Benn is talking about is a rather more boring, rank and file, democratic challenge to the Labour party.

No star here laces

20:31 / 13.05.03

I'm a member, son. And I don't know if you're hard enough to survive in the mean coffee mornings of The South Hackney Constituency Labour Party. But come along and try. We can fight crime...

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

00:22 / 14.05.03

I've been thinking along those lines myself. I'm in two minds, actually. Whether to join and attempt to work from within would be a fruitful pursuit, or whether it would mean I was going down the "they're shit! I think I'll give 'em some cash in case they turn good again!" route. Sometimes I think the droves of people leaving may actually make the fuckers take notice, and I'm not sure I want to help balance the numbers. Other times I think they don't give a fuck about the droves of people leaving, and that to get in there would be the best option.

(As Some Bizzare supremo Stevo said... "Conform to deform". To which Foetus famously replied "Bollocks! DEFORM to deform!")

We're The Great Old Ones Now

08:52 / 14.05.03

I don't see that there's any point putting together another left party, especially here in Holborn & St.P. Last election, there were something like fifteen parties on the paper, and at least five of them were alternative 'Labour' or 'Socialist' parties. Like the man said, too many socialist parties, not enough socialists.

I agree that a blatant carpet-bagging operation would meet resistance, but I was thinking of something a little less SPECTRE, a little more along the lines of an attempt to bring in a profoundly idealistic injection of new blood which would speak to Labour members - so that this would be a welcome arrival.

10:19 / 14.05.03

Constructively attempting to improve from the inside is always going to be better, and much more difficult, than standing outside. Depends if there is enough there to build on.

13:22 / 14.05.03

I hate Tony Benn, the old fraud. But that's another thread entirely...

With regard to the local takeover plan: It is a nice idea, but it's already been done - a number of MPs started small, sought to change the Labour party from within, and achieved it.

They called their project 'New Labour' and I have a feeling you may have heard of it...

I'm not trying to be deliberately provocative here, by the way. But I would contend that you would be fighting a losing battle in attempting to go up against New Labour and the Blairite tendency. Blair (and his cronies) redesigned the Labour party so it became much friendlier to big business - and it is the backing of corporate power which you will find hard to push against, I'm afraid.

You will be going up against a political atmosphere so fucked by corporate power that Nestle can sponsor conference seminars where the problems of poverty in Africa are discussed. And small matters like Nestle pushing the Ethiopian government to repay a historic multi-million pound debt aren't mentioned...

Sure, you can start small and dream big. And you're not the only one.

Each conference, you will hear motions being forwarded by Labour local parties which are very much still left-leaning and socialist. And there will be several of these. But shortly afterwards, you will hear them voted down again, or, at best, afforded a token compromise.

You'll see a token lefty - like Mark Sneddon (I think that's his name, editor of Tribune...) on the National Executive Council, and you'll see MPs, very rarely, voting with their conscience in Parliament.

You'll see all this, but watch who wins...

Oh, and who will watch YOUR watchmen? I seem to remember an M-word from 1980's Liverpool where 'socialist' dreams went wrong...

We're The Great Old Ones Now

13:52 / 14.05.03

With regard to the local takeover plan: It is a nice idea, but it's already been done

Well, duh. And they managed it because the party needed changing, in one way or another. It was as corrupt as the Tories, loaded down with entrenched positions derived from a version of Socialism predicated on bad economics and teleological nonsense, and choking on out-dated rhetoric. Whereas now, the situation is completely different. New Labour has achieved a level of open 'cooperation' with business which passes belief, is packed with entrentched positions derived from a version of centrist politics derived from bad economics and market-determinist nonsense, and is spewing meaningless catchphrases.

But I would contend that you would be fighting a losing battle in attempting to go up against New Labour and the Blairite tendency. Blair (and his cronies) redesigned the Labour party so it became much friendlier to big business - and it is the backing of corporate power which you will find hard to push against, I'm afraid.

And battles against overwhelming odds are, de facto, not worth starting. Silly me. But in any case, there are countervaling forces - non-corporate power, good economics... and people getting increasingly fed up, even in the corporate world, with unrealistic pay-packages for CEOs who screw up. It's not a monolith, any more than the Soviet Union was or the USA is.

Oh, and who will watch YOUR watchmen?

Another good reason to do nothing. Right on, man.

Okay, what should we do?

14:06 / 14.05.03

Hey, duuuude, I'm being a Devil's Advocate here.

Chill out, comrade.

You should do it anyway, if that is what you feel will change the party. I'm not talking your dream down, I'm exposing it to criticism.

I would contend that big business will still get its own way - I thought that about Iraq, and I was right, but it didn't stop me protesting.

If you really feel this is the way to go, then do it.

And hell, if enough people do get involved the way you're suggesting, then maybe the conference motions won't get voted down, and the party will change.

But I find cynicism more comfortable than optimism, and I'm an ex-member of the party who feels no pull to return, I'm afraid.

15:05 / 14.05.03

You should definitely do it, Nick. I'd join in if I wasn't abroad. But I think you are downplaying the difficulty. I still think "thankless" is a fair prediction. I mean, look at New Labour. They succeeded because there was a mood for change (labour was sick of opposition) and they got a bit "lucky" with the death of John Smith. But also, the architects were already in the party and had a good deal of credibilty. It didn't quite happen overnight.

Now, your goal is to move the party back left. There is a lot going for you - the labour party is to the left of New labour and you can tell that they are starting to question whether this sort of labour government is actually worthwhile. One problem is that the leadership is essentially anti-democratic. Another one is that you don't have the credibility inside Labour. Which isn't to say you shouldn't go for it, just that you probably need to think pretty long term and drink lots of coffee.

15:22 / 14.05.03

Or wait for Gordon Brown to get a 'credible*' ministerial friend or two of his to resign, attacking Blair for his increasing centralisation of power, have him seize cotrol of the reins and steer the party leftwards again.

Can you see that happening?

(*; Is hokey-cokey Clare credible, though?)

We're The Great Old Ones Now

22:13 / 14.05.03

The question, I suppose, becomes one of whether the process has been so corrupted that it's not worth saving.

So - from within, or from without?

Votes, please.

18:28 / 16.05.03

The Party System, you mean?

I'm not sure that there is a good answer to that. Its a personal thing. I suppose I'd lean toward working from within, though I'm ready to be convinced by a credible or even acceptable alternative.