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Punk Is Dad

  
  

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Cop Killer
17:44 / 09.05.03
I've noticed more and more that a lot of kids are latching on to the whole punk rock thing as a viable youth subculture despite the fact that it is older than me, and certainly older than they are. I do really like punk rock, but it bothers me a bit that no one has really been out there saying that punk rock is crap and that this new music (whatever new music it might be) is the only way, much in the way that punk did with rock'n'roll. Instead, we have a bunch of people trying to prove how credible they are with referencing really cool punk bands (Black Flag, Minor Threat, Dead Kennedys, the Ramones, the Misfits etc.) as huge influences on them; paying homage to them, rather than trying to do them one better.
It also seems that the early message of punk rock has become distorted to a great deal; instead of "we have no heroes" it has become "we love Sid Vicious" (and what a useless tool Sid was, it always amazes me how much people love him, I never understood it). There's also this influx of bands out there who take being punk way too seriously, missing out on the sense of humor that the original punk bands had in spades (does anyone really believe that the Clash feel that they are the "only band that matters"?). Although I'm sure that this lack of a sense of humor about oneself has been a problem since the beginning, it looks like now that it's the prevaliant mind set. I've been doing my best to try and get kids to disavow punk rock (as I think that it's really funny for a guy who walks around in a shirt that proclaims him to be "Punk as fuck," like I do, to try and tell kids that punk is lame), and my bands "Fuck Punk Rock" shirts (that on the back say "We don't know how to punk, we just know how to rock" and then we sign it as the band [love, the Southside Orphans]) don't sell at all, except to older people and my friends who think it's funny (although this might be because my band is basically a punk band that says we're not, in fact, we're a completely different form of new music) and no one really likes us that much (except for said older people and my friends). But while playing shows, and espousing anti-punk sentiment, the kids with mohawks don't get it, they don't understand how someone could possibly come to the conclusiont that punk is insufferably lame and should be done away with.
I'm not even gonna get into the trivialization of punk rock through the throngs of corporate punk bands like Blink 182 and Sum 41, as I think that bands like the Casualties and their like is much more detrimental to punk rock.
 
 
reFLUX
21:46 / 09.05.03
fuck punk! and fuck the guitar!
 
 
01
01:26 / 10.05.03
Being into punk for a lotta years now and playing in band meself, I will both agree and disagree with you. Before this turns into a rehashed adolescent back and forth on the overly flogged to death topic of "what is punk", I do agree that while much of what is "punk" has been co-opted by the Mcspectacle, there are many bands out there who are putting out good stuff. I haven't bought as many cds as I have in the last year, and I just turned the dreaded fucking 30 last month.

Of course the kids don't get your t-shirts, because they're discovering for themselves what's good about punk rock in the first place. ie. Dead Kennedys, Black Flag. Hell, I'm just getting into Black Flag now, not really caring for Rollins and his work when I was a lad. I understand the point your making with your "Fuck punk slogan", but to be honest, I see that as just more gen X more ironic than thou claptrap. Irony is wearing thin as it has become so twisted and gnarled and self parodying it is just plain sad. The kids are accessing the core and message of what the music had to say in the first place, and that's why they don't get what you're saying.

Ok, granted, Blink, and their ilk suck, but if they serve as a gateway drug to Bad Religion and The DK's then so be it.
 
 
Pants Payroll
02:51 / 10.05.03
varis 08, don't blame the insrument for peoples misuse of it.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
03:09 / 10.05.03
From what I get, the American punks never really got the humor in punk. They took it too serious, and didn't really get the joke. Whatever the joke was. This may be a broad generalization, but it's the biggest difference I came up with when reading books and articles on punk rock when I was growing up.

And the kids love Sid because he was like the punk rock mascot. The super exagerated cartoon version of the dumb punk. You don't really have to analyze his actions, any contradictions, his political motives. He was just this really dumb guy who looked cool as fuck and wore a leather jacket.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
03:20 / 10.05.03
Fuck punk. Beat is crazy, daddy-o!
 
 
Mystery Gypt
05:53 / 10.05.03
actually, i thought the british bands were the ones who took it all to seriously -- influenced by groups like the new york dolls (not so serious in their high heels and lipstick) and the Ramones ("beat on the brat") -- the brit kids added all this extreme spitting and enraged politics (ie clash, x-ray specs, crass, sex pistols); whereas bands like the germs, the dead boys, dead kennedys were endlessly ironic, anarchistically slapstick, or just flat hilarious.

anyway... what's the question here? i don't see any reason why kids coming up should think punk rock sucks. judge them by the music they wind up making, not the t-shirts they wear. all darby crash ever wanted to do was sound like david bowie, he was in hero worship awe of glitter rock, and look what he came up with.
 
 
Mystery Gypt
05:55 / 10.05.03
I've been doing my best to try and get kids to disavow punk rock

it's not working? maybe you're just not as riveting as jello biafra, y'know?
 
 
Jack Denfeld
06:54 / 10.05.03
Or maybe they can't find his shirt and matching tongue ring at the local mall Hot Topic.
 
 
The Natural Way
10:14 / 10.05.03
I suppose what depresses me about the whole nu-punk thing is how regressive it all is. Punk emerged as an answer to the dominant fiddly-whiddly Prog scene, way back when the guitar was still the dominant instrument. It allowed the kids to take possession of music again blahdy, blah..... In exactly the same way they did in the eighties and early nineties with hip hop and house. And that's the point. The thing didn't stop with the hijacking of the guitar strings - music moved on. Kids found new ways to own a sound: rapping, toasting, DJing, noodling with their consoles.... I'm not trying to belittle punk here - I love the stuff - but trying to emulate it is always going to be a step back. It's just not relevant anymore, except for in a kinda post-modern 'let's fiddle with the past' way.

I just get a bit worried that a lot of the bands that waffle about how they're so punk are actually really, really conservative and neophobic.

Oh, and awkward on the dance floor.
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
10:40 / 10.05.03
What happened to the original thread title? I think I liked "Punk Is Dad" much more.
 
 
The Natural Way
11:41 / 10.05.03
And I think it's more to the point, actually.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
11:45 / 10.05.03
dericgeneric- so did I.

As regards taking stuff seriously- Crass were (imho) the best punk band ever, and they took themselves possibly a little too seriously.

American punk- Dead Kennedys, Black Flag, they were both fucking awesome. Personally, I think Bad Religion are carrying the flag in the same way New Model Army did in the UK.

By the way, Conflict still exist, and are still fucking brilliant.

That said... (and I'm gonna get shot for this one) I think Digital Hardcore are carrying on the tradition, even though the style has changed. Or perhaps especially so. Atari Teenage Riot (RIP Carl Crack) were from me distinguishable from Crass only in sound. In terms of ideology and means of distribution (DHR has always seemed to me to be a modern equivalent of Crass' own label), as far as I'm concerned, the torch has been carried.
 
 
Cop Killer
16:42 / 10.05.03
I, as well, think that the original title of "Punk is dad" is way fucking better, and that's why I called it that, perhaps they thought it was a typo, or something, I'd like to get that title back, because it's oh so clever and cool and stuff. It was a comment about how punk rock was my parents youth subculture, and as all good youth subcultures are supposed to do, it pissed off parents, then. Now, parents think it's cute that they're kids dress and act like "punks" and it's much more accessable, which isn't exactly a bad thing, but how are kids supposed to feel cooler than the other kids when the other kids are doing the same exact thing?
I love the Dead Kennedys and Black Flag as much as the next person, but where are they now? The lead singers of both bands are doing really fucking annoying spoken word albums now and there's nothing out there that tries to do better than either of them, they just constantly pay homage, and try to sound like their heroes (without the adventurousness of either band). The punk bands I see now don't try new stuff, like the Minutemen did and Dinosaur Jr. did and Black Flag did; oh no, they just ape the Exploited and GBH (both of whom, while really rockin', weren't exactly original in any way), and tie on simplistic leftist sounding slogans along, that I'm not even sure if they mean, or even if they know what the hell they're talking about; that, or they sing songs about being punked and spiking their hair or something else equally inane.
As much as people like to think that the likes of Blink 182 and Sum 41 bring kids back to the old stuff, it doesn't happen hardly ever. The new bands are what the kids think punk should sound like, and the old stuff is too rough sounding for them (I'm serious, I've talked to a lot of kids with this point of view). People don't care that Rancid rips off the Clash, they think that Rancid sounds better than the Clash anyways, and don't actually like or respect the Clash because of that. Most of the kids already don't have roots in punk rock, well, they kind of do, but they don't really care about it at all.
 
 
moriarty
17:04 / 10.05.03
Moderators! Bring back "Punk is Dad"!
 
 
Char Aina
17:08 / 10.05.03
a couple of points...

punk is a great aesthetic. forget the message for a minute, it just sonds awesome.

i mean, the misfits, man!

also, its a great style of music for kids. it really feeds off the energy that teenagers have, and it sets you up to enter the world of grownup music like no other style. if i werent punk foirst, i woudl mnost likely have been nothing musically; it gave me an in where i could be really ad and still be doing what my heroes did. i mean, i would love to have been tom araya first, but it is much more realistic to be deedee ramone.
 
 
01
17:23 / 10.05.03
If you get a chance, go see Henry Rollins do his spoken word, it'll knock your socks off. Why? The dude has presence. I have never seen anyone walk onto a stage and own it from second one like he does. Sure what he's saying isn't going to be the most earth shattering stuff you ever heard, but that's not the point. But taken as a case study in sheer spirit, he's the reigning king.

Being a huge DK's and Jello fan all my life, I got a chance to finally see his spoken word a couple of years back. While some of it was really articulate, witty and hillarious, alot of it was the same shit he was talking about in '88. If I have to hear about Tipper fucking Gore one more time I'm going to vomit. And he spoke for close to 5 hours. He could have easily cut the shit down to two and half hours and ditched the old material.

Ok. Alot of bands that are re-hashing the same formulas from the late '70s and early '80s, especially the Johnny-local-band-leather-jacket-with-studs-dog-with-bandanna-squeegee- "my-mom-said-I-have-to-go-school-but-fuck-her-and-her-stupid-system-I'm -going-to-snort-meth-and-listen-to-the-exploited-and-I'm-37" is concerned, that shit is going to unfortunately always be there similar to some
 of the old flakey hippies that got stuck in an adolescent mentality as well. However these aging punker-than-thous are worse because their just old and bitter and crotchity. At least the flakey hippy is friendly and on "that peace vibe."

Point being the bands ripping off the "classic old bands" are going to always be there because some people will always be longing for those oh so "nostalgic" times, but punk will never be what it was in England in '77 or California in '81 because it's two thousand and fucking three and those times are over. Will there be something that is reactionary? Absolutely. That's the nature of music and art. Is punk music still viable? Once again, absolutely.

A lot of stuff I've been digging is Rise Against, Hot Water Music, Sparta, Strung Out, and AFI to name a few. Especially that AFI disc, man is that good. Now people are going to accuse them of ripping off the Misfits, which granted, they do with their gothy image, but put that disc on and you'll hear some damn good sounding song structures and production which sounds nothing like the punk of old.

Punk is dead, long live punk.
 
 
Char Aina
18:10 / 10.05.03
yeah dude.

AVRIL PONX; FORWARD TO DEATH!

ahem.
 
 
Mystery Gypt
20:16 / 10.05.03
on a side note, it always make me shake my head when people confuse rollins with the core of black flag. he was like, what, the 4th or 5th singer in the band, and "his" most famous BF album, damaged, was written entirely by greg ginn, the actual core member of black flag. rollins was, then just as now, an opportunistic doofus who knows how to rock. of course he does games shows now.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
01:33 / 11.05.03
I'm not trying to belittle punk here - I love the stuff - but trying to emulate it is always going to be a step back. It's just not relevant anymore, except for in a kinda post-modern 'let's fiddle with the past' way.

(rolls eyes)

Music, art, and culture is not a straight line. These neat timelines of rock -> punk -> hip hop -> house are the inventions of lazy writers and crass magazines who are only serving as buying guides for the unitiated.

Art and culture is not about getting from point a to point b and onwards. Just because you or someone else has gotten over something, it doesn't mean that others have. Punk is best described as a concept and not as a musical style, and that concept is part of the appeal of other genres and styles that came afterwards. It is probably a better idea to acknowledge that these styles and subcultures ultimately come from the same intellectual/cultural/emotional place, and are essentially brothers and sisters of the same family. So yeah, Punk Is Dad, and is part of a complex family line of artistic movements and subcultures that go back a very long way.
 
 
lolita nation
01:40 / 11.05.03
Damn, I was hoping this thread would be for sharing stories about our Dads who would always wear Dead Kennedys "TOO DRUNK TO FUCK" t-shirts everywhere when we were little.
 
 
Char Aina
02:06 / 11.05.03
my dad just settles for representing the tshirt through interpretive dance.
 
 
Mystery Gypt
04:28 / 11.05.03
a lot of the geneology of punk music, when simplified, is totally counter to this concept of "it was brand new, so the new hottness has to be brand new too." the dolls and the ramones etc all just wanted to play like the music they grew up with, ie 50 rock; so they, like, played it as best they could. then the english copied what they did. then the first generation of hollywood punks copied the english punks. then black flag etc copied them.

but that's just the music. the attitude and lifestyle of punk rock, though it can be argued about and disputed and interpreted in a hundred different ways and lived individually a thousand different ways, was about a total commitment to nihilism. as a reaction to idealistic hippies and a totally decaying econom/political environment, the punks built a culture around the presupostion that annihilation was already a done deal and they were just doing a death spasm dance around the edge of this fact. that's why, for example, William Burroughs is so easily and indisputably classified as punk rock (or at least, part of punk rock intersects with WSB in the vin diagram of contempo culture).

so in the year 2003, if you are embodying nihilism through your pop culture output, you can rightly claim to be punk.

if you are playing poppy, "punky" music because your dad's record label set you up with a warp tour but yr really hoping to score a sugar cereal ad, there might be a bit more legitimate dispute about your "punk" status, in the same way that i might dispute your claims of being a german expressionist if you happen to live in wiemar berlin and paint brightly colored, happy paintings of rainbows.

in the shit culture we've got going now, we need punk rock more than ever. but its getting harder and harder to find any of it.
 
 
rizla mission
13:09 / 11.05.03
but it bothers me a bit that no one has really been out there saying that punk rock is crap and that this new music (whatever new music it might be) is the only way, much in the way that punk did with rock'n'roll.

But dude, (as Mystery Gypt insinuated above) punk IS rock'n'roll.

AND ROCK'N'ROLL WILL NEVER DIE!

ROCK'N'ROLL!!!!

do excuse me, I just watched "Wild Zero".

From what I get, the American punks never really got the humor in punk.

Sooo.. not of fan of NOFX, the Vandals and the eight hundred million bands who sound like them then?
 
 
The Natural Way
13:17 / 11.05.03
Yes, Flux, I knew all that stuff when I wrote the original post, only I'd forgotten it. I was probably wrong, really.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
14:41 / 11.05.03
Oh, I am a fan of both NOFX and the Vandals (the Vandals really should have made it onto the radio stations, they're extremely catchy and poppy) I guess I was more referring to the DC scene in the 80's.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
14:51 / 11.05.03
But the DC punk scene of the 80s was notable for the fact that it was so different from other punk scenes at the time! Part of the beauty of punk, certainly from 77-84 or so was that local flavor was a big part of it, and that punk scenes in different parts of the world had very different sounds and ideas about punk.

I think that most of the time when people make these grand pronouncements about punk, they are suffering from very severe tunnelvision.
 
 
01
20:56 / 11.05.03
on a side note, it always make me shake my head when people confuse rollins with the core of black flag. he was like, what, the 4th or 5th singer in the band, and "his" most famous BF album, damaged, was written entirely by greg ginn, the actual core member of black flag. rollins was, then just as now, an opportunistic doofus who knows how to rock. of course he does games shows now.

ahh horshit, Rollins rules and his stuff beats all the Keith Morris stuff and whoever else was before him. Granted, yes, there is no Black Flag without Greg Ginn.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
21:01 / 11.05.03
I guess another big thing about punk rock, especially in the states was the DIY ethic. But I don't think the kids you're talking about today necessarily get that.
 
 
bio k9
21:37 / 11.05.03
Oh, I think they do. It just depends on which kids you're looking at.

Dischord still makes you put out a record on your own before they will put one out for you. Im not sure but I think K might have some kind of similar requirements. Speaking of K, thats what punk is all about to me. Collectives of like minded individuals doing their own thing under one banner. Who needs a leather jacket? Spikes? Guitar? This thread reminds me of those kids on the escalator in SLC Punk: "Anarchy in the UK, mannnn."

Still, teenagers are notorious for their bad taste in, well, just about everything. Given time, most of them outgrow it. Punk is about doing your own thing your own way and that isn't easy when you're still discovering who you are.

But this part is wierd to me: People don't care that Rancid rips off the Clash, they think that Rancid sounds better than the Clash anyways, and don't actually like or respect the Clash because of that. Is this true? What fucking planet is this? Every time I've been to see Rancid the kids are screaming for them to play Op Ivy and Clash songs.
 
 
kaonashi
21:50 / 11.05.03
I'd agree with Flux's point about the cyclical nature of music and/or styles of music to a point. It just that most casual music listeners think that it is that kind og logical progression.

I'd argue that the truth isn't important if everyone believes the lie, because the lie is what is driving them.

Punk was just stripped down rock and roll with attitude, and rock and roll was just the ability to rip off who ever you wanted and make it something new. And that seems to be a dominant trait in our society, even in our language. I'd say that as long as people are willing to use this spirit of adapt and mutate in music that punk will never be dead. But it might not sound anything like the music you are thinking of.
 
 
Char Aina
01:05 / 12.05.03
People don't care that Rancid rips off the Clash, they think that Rancid sounds better than the Clash anyways, and don't actually like or respect the Clash because of that.


Is this true? What fucking planet is this? Every time I've been to see Rancid the kids are screaming for them to play Op Ivy and Clash songs.


well, i never noticed that at rancid shows, but i'll give you it.

my little brother is a big fan of the newschool of frat-friendly punk the states is churning out, and i can vouch for neither he nor his friends being the slightest bit interested that this riff is a maiden riff, that riff was done better by the misfits, or that operation ivy are better at melding ska and punk than most of the new kids.
he's happy with what he's got, it pushes the buttons he wants it to, and with less effort. well, it seems that way to me, anyway.

i have bought him CDs of the likes of ian dury, op ivy, the ramones and the aforementioned maiden and misfits, i have loaned him even more, but he only really likes listening to bands like good charlotte, mest, sum41 and blink 182.

i'm not saying hes everyone, but he seems like a good example.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
02:39 / 12.05.03
I think this has a lot to do with corporations going out of their way to market everything to this young generation from the start of their lives as being FOR THEM. They aren't raised to be interested in the past, they are brought up to live in an eternal present. It's a shame, but this is an entire demographic of people who have been made molded by marketing to dislike anything that sounds or looks old.

On one hand, I can see how an openness to novelty and ostensibly having your own thing can be positive virtues, but the gross indifference so many people of this generation have about the past is disgusting to me.

I sound like an old man! I'm 23!
 
 
Cop Killer
06:55 / 12.05.03
But dude, (as Mystery Gypt insinuated above) punk IS rock'n'roll.

AND ROCK'N'ROLL WILL NEVER DIE!

ROCK'N'ROLL!!!!


Yeah, that was the part of the joke of punk rock. It was just pure rock'n'roll, but they were all like "fuck rock'n'roll, only this stuff matters." I'm just hoping for something where all the people are all like "fuck punk rock, only this stuff [whatever it may be, even if it is derivative from punk rock] matters."
 
 
moriarty
07:19 / 12.05.03
I don't really listen to much in the way of music, so I'm sorry if this has no relevance.

I was mulling over this thread and about my feelings towards what I found exciting when I was into punk and what I find lacking now. I'm pretty sure, for me at least, that it's purely subjective. I've lost that lovin' feeling. The DIY thing that Jack mentioned clinches it for me. I once made a promise to try, just try, to produce as much as I consume. To try and create something small and intimate to share with other people.

I don't see much of that from anyone anymore, and I wonder how much of this is just from me being out of touch. I know that zines, actual paper zines, are still being made and passed around, but it barely seems like they exist to me these days.

Is it possible that whatever permutation of punk that you personally ascribe to is still bouncing around, but under your radar? And that what seemed like a force to be reckoned with when you were so close to it now seems so small from a distance?
 
  

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