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Do you assume that someone is less intelligent if they dress up all "cool looking?"

 
  

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Rage
22:41 / 03.05.03
Because I know more-radical-than-thou people who won't respect you if you have piercings and dyed hair because "it's stupid."

Since when did expressing yourself physically become a reason for people to raise their noses at your unenlightenment?
 
 
paw
23:32 / 03.05.03
if i see someone with a unique style of clothing or whatever i think to myself maybe i could get an interesting conversation out of them. so for me it's a sign of more intelligence, until i get the oppurtunity to talk to them
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
09:14 / 04.05.03
I don't assume less intelligence of a person, however, I do question the intelligence of all vanity.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
21:19 / 04.05.03
Depends how good the dye job is.
 
 
DesignerJim
19:01 / 08.07.03
I adore vanity. Life would be so dull without it.
 
 
weepy_minotaur
07:41 / 15.07.03
clothes are extremely important. some ancient rituals could only be performed if the shaman was wearing a mask. theres a reason superheroes wear costumes.
we decide our identity by how we look.
our identity defines what we can do.
clothes are extremely important. quote from king mob:"i want em smart and i want em good looking."
need i say more?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:46 / 15.07.03
The general gist of all this seems to be right. Clothes obviously present us to the outside world. When we choose a certain image, particularly an extreme one, it's necessary to accept the baggage that comes with it. Unfortunately there are people who are going to judge us by our outward appearance.

yet still they're trying to intimidate me into dressing like them.

I'm not sure that people are trying to intimidate you. Everyone's allowed their own opinion and when you wear anything that's noticeable it catches attention. Lots of people can't help but vocalise their reactions but rather more to the point at some level you clearly enjoy the audible tutting that is directed at you else you wouldn't be wearing such controversial T-shirts.
 
 
paw
23:04 / 15.07.03
of course everyone's entitled to their opinion. just to put things in context this tutting rarely happens but i don't 'enjoy the audible tutting'. i just don't like the idea of young drunk males giving me a kicking outside when i'm trying to stay positive and friendly in a club.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:58 / 15.07.03
I didn't understand it like that. Tutting sounds far too silly to lead to beating. I take it these T-shirts are offensive to their personal collective dress sense and not just plain horrible- not that I can imagine many clothes that would lead to an acceptable beating (however white jeans and in fact all garments made of faded black denim are deemed wrong by me and those of you who sport such clothes may find yourselves in line for very audible tutting).
 
 
Lurid Archive
15:58 / 16.07.03
The short answer is that dressing up all "cool looking" doesn't make you less intelligent nor would a sensible person judge you on those grounds. That would be truly shallow. Then again, one can't assume that reactions are always due to outward appearance.
 
 
paw
17:05 / 16.07.03
anna - ''not that I can imagine many clothes that would lead to an acceptable beating''


you obviously haven't been round my way anna , where i know fellas who have occasionally done such things but it's the idea that worries me you know? And that's the thing, the t-shirts aren't even offensive, no obnoxious slogans, nothin like that.
 
 
gingerbop
21:27 / 16.07.03
I think I only question their intelligence if they dress exactly the fucking same as the rest of their bunch, or perhaps to a lesser extent, if what they're wearing is extremely unpractical. But certainly not if their hair is dyed. Or I'd be a fat-assed hypocrate.

My last bf recieves fairly regular beatings for his gothiness, which isnt exactly offensive- i mean its fairly minor-goth. But then I live amoungst a bunch of wankers.

My computers been broken for two weeks, and this is such a relief. Though I've forgotten how to type.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:53 / 16.07.03
Err, Sean I was joking. I think the hint might have been in the words 'many' and 'acceptable' as in no clothes should lead to a beating and thus you live near a bunch of cunts. Sounds like Watford.

I think I only question their intelligence if they dress exactly the fucking same as the rest of their bunch

On first reading this line I thought, yeah but it would be nasty to frown upon a 16 year old wearing the same clothes as her friends. Then I remembered being 16, recalled that I wouldn't have worn the same clothes as everyone else if I'd been held at gunpoint and decided it was fine to judge people on those grounds. So yeah, I agree with you gingerbop, there's something odd about groups who wear really similar clothes.

Welcome back sweets.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:03 / 22.07.03
Am I the only person reading this whose really intrigued by what's actually on these fight provoking t-shirts?
 
 
gravitybitch
14:07 / 22.07.03
The thing that gets me is that you can wear whatever you want, state whatever "message" you desire, and you have no control over how it gets interpreted. Your message (affiliation, subculture, belief system, etc) is all in the eye of the beholder.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:20 / 22.07.03
As wonderful as having a son like Donnie?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
21:13 / 02.08.03
While it is pretty ridiculous to dismiss people the way mentioned at the start of this thread, there certainly are some justifiable reasons to be suspicious of people for literally buying one self's way into counter-cultures which that person may only be trying on to see how they fit.

Let's put it this way: any idiot with a bit of money can dress up, get tattoos/piercings/whatever. It doesn't mean much anymore, it's something of a devalued currency at this point. Doing these sort of things isn't exactly shorthand for "I'm cool/open-minded/etc" and a lot of well-meaning but dim people have co-opted a lot of these things. So I really don't blame the lifers who have a lot invested in the lifestyle decisions that they've made for being suspicious of the newbies.

As for this:

People have been looking at Rage all funny and assuming she's an idiot.

Judging by your behavior on this board, I think it may be unreasonable to suggest that they are basing this assumption entirely on your appearance.
 
 
Tom Coates
14:10 / 04.08.03
I wish everyone wore exactly the same clothes. Like totally exactly the same. Then we'd actually have to pay attention to what people thought and talked about instead of whether their t-shirt was hip or not.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
14:33 / 04.08.03
That would sadly preclude persuading yourself that someone was intelligent merely because you wanted to go to bed with them.

Which would be a damn shame.
 
 
Char Aina
19:48 / 05.08.03
see, people who want to go to bed with me are exceptionally intelligent. and have exquisitely refined tastes.

i dont need to pretend.
 
 
Char Aina
19:52 / 05.08.03
on a more serious note, i wonder how much of the ill feeling is due to you feeling that these human cattle dont recognise that they are in the prescence of a VerySpecialHumanBeing who is their better, and practically the god of enlightenment.

i mean, they dont know you like me.

if they took some time to get past the fact that you think you are special and pandered to your whims of being the most interesting girl at the forefront of human evolution, i'm sure they would just love you.


says the most evolved boy, obviously.
 
 
Professor Silly
16:13 / 06.08.03
I assume any white American male that wears a baseball cap at a crazy angle has less intelligence...moreso if they wear huge golden jewelry. Ditto on certain tattoos: anyone with a Tazmanian Devil tattoo, or barbed wire...or tribal arm bands.
also to skinhead garb...I tend to view skinheads as less intelligent, despite having met a few really sharp ones.

On the flip side, I don't think anyone considers me less intelligent for the clothing I wear...but then I dress like a college professor combined with No. 6 from The Prisoner....
 
 
Tryphena Absent
08:52 / 07.08.03
This thread is beginning to irritate me. Okay, we're all being dreadfully flip here but what we've said collectively brings across a rather odd state on this board.

Some of us are unhappy that we might get beaten up or that it happens to the people we choose to be around-
My last bf recieves fairly regular beatings for his gothiness. Yet there's also a significant number of 'lithers who will happily admit there own foolish assumptions. I assume any white American male that wears a baseball cap at a crazy angle has less intelligence...moreso if they wear huge golden jewelry.

You can wear whatever you want, state whatever "message" you desire, and you have no control over how it gets interpreted. This point is ridiculously important because it comments on the above. Those 'American males' aren't trying to look like twats, they're choosing to dress in their own way. No one wants to be beaten up but their dress is being interpreted in the wrong way... but then wouldn't it be boring if everyone did interpret everything in the same way? We all have ingrained prejudices but it's a bit sick to assume someone's stupid because they dress in a garish, OTT way.

any idiot with a bit of money can dress up, get tattoos/piercings/whatever. It doesn't mean much anymore, it's something of a devalued currency at this point.
I suspect that this sentence is where the conversation really begins. Tattoos are fashionable, piercings are rarely rebellious but the whole point is that people are less likely to judge you on these types of things because they've become so common. The very notion that we are creating devalued currency constantly, especially in terms of image and clothing, is important. There are extremes at the moment that make tribal arm bands and lip piercings look dated and thus it is not intelligence that people debate when they note these things but rather whether they could actually talk about things with you.
 
 
Tom Coates
09:36 / 07.08.03
Isn't a more serious point here that people's clothing is in fact part of a process of social clumping - that people are expressing aspects of their self-perceived identity designed to attract people with similar beliefs / ideologies / interests as themselves. And that in fact this kind of self-labelling and self-social-advertising is core to the way that we interact with people. For example, you could argue that on Barbelith, your 'appearance' is the way you type, the use of punctuation, whether or not you capitalise your letters or not. Also some of the language chosen is designed to represent a part of the way you've constructed yourself in relationship to pre-existing communities. It's not so much the 'dressing like everyone else' thing or the 'why can't you express your individuality rather than trying to just fit in', but a much more serious activity of self-definition and self-presentation that is necessary because we no longer live in communities of two or three hundred people, but must identify people who share our affinities by billboard-style linguistic, clothing and identity-labels.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
09:57 / 07.08.03
but must identify people who share our affinities by billboard-style linguistic, clothing and identity-labels.

But I think that this particular thread is about the way we distinguish the people we don't share anything with. It's about our bias against rather than for the people around us. Rage begins with the question since when did expressing yourself physically become a reason for people to raise their noses at your unenlightenment? The whole thing then centres around the negative aspects of our social relationship rather than our ability to discern who our friends are.

Isn't a more serious point here that people's clothing is in fact part of a process of social clumping

And that's the point I was going for in an illiterate kind of way.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:03 / 07.08.03
I assume any white American male that wears a baseball cap at a crazy angle has less intelligence....

On the flip side, I don't think anyone considers me less intelligent for the clothing I wear...


Perhaps not, but on the basis of your 'appearance' in this thread, I'm not inclined to credit you with much intelligence. Would you mind unpacking exactly what it is about baseball caps that makes you think they are only worn by the stupid? And why specifically white American males? Do baseball caps interfere with the blood circulation in the craniums of this demographic in a way that is not the case for women, black people or Belgians?
 
 
Professor Silly
16:57 / 08.08.03
I really can't defend my reaction to certain people with logic...as I'm describing an emotional reaction. When I'm at work, and I see a young white male come in with their hat on crooked, I instantly feel a disliking for that individual. I'm not saying that absolutely no intelligent white males dress in this manner. It seems the point of this thread boils down specifically to reactions to dress and how that relates to assumptions of intelligence. I could otherwise say the same thing about people who want barbed wire tattoos, but that has less to do with appearance than desires.
As far as other folks' reaction to me...I don't think my appearance causes others to question my intelligence (although my words might)...no, I get entirely different reactions. Due to my tattoo sleeves old people look at me like I'm a criminal (although possibly a very intelligent criminal). Lower income tattoo enthusiasts treat me more like a rock star (which is why I cover up my tattoos with a blazer when I can--to become invisible again).
In a perfect world noone would assume anything based on appearance...and that world has yet to arrive. I think if anything the fact that I can recognize my prejudices puts me one step closer to enlightment than the person who hates blindly.

Bikers...I don't like dealing with motorcycle gang members either...although to be fair one of my best customers has a motorcycle (he's not in any club though).

Coming back to my words...I have a tendency to overgeneralize for the sake of making a joke and a point simultaniously...and of course you'all can't see the smirk on my face marking said comment as a joke. Oh well, I can still strive for proper spelling and such.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
17:01 / 09.08.03
Recognising your own prejudices doesn't move you any close to 'enlightenment' unless you take the rather uncomfortable but ultimately necessary next step of trying to overcome them, dAb.

I think the only constructive point to be made here is that you seem very confident in how your own means of expressing yourself in terms of appearance and dress are received/interpreted by others. If you yourself can develop an instant dislike or distain for someone based on something as arbitrary as the angle of their headgear, then I would counsel against being so sure that "very intelligent criminal" and "rock star" are the full spectrum of impressions that other people will gain of you from your own affectations. None of us can ever guarantee such a thing: what I can guarantee you is that while some of those people with baseball caps askew will be much smarter than you could ever imagine, some of them will also share your lack of self-awareness to the point where they exit your workplace thinking "I freaked that guy out - because my style of dress is too fucking radical and subversive for him!".
 
 
Professor Silly
17:47 / 10.08.03
...perhaps....

It seems to me that most people have reactions of some type to the appearance of others. To be fair, I might come across as too artsy or dare I say "faggy" to those biker types--at first.

But I'm only talking first reactions here--once I get to talking to someone I quite easily overcome the stereotype and find common ground. As my wife has said repeatedly, I could get along with Osama Bin Ladin despite not being a radical muslim--and he'd probably find me the most tolerable non-muslim American--because I have the ability to listen to what people have to say in a non-judgemental manner (when I want, anyway).

But if piping in one's two cents on a topic/question warrents the type of behavior you've shown me, perhaps I'll start a thread entitled "Tell me your worst fear"...and then I'll make fun of each response and tell them how unenlightened and childish their fear is. Oh but wait...I wouldn't do that, 'cause I'm not you.


(poof)


(whoosh)


Okay! never mind. All of my assumptions based on physical appearance have vanished and I'm now a well rounded citizen of the world. I think I'll go to the worst section of L.A. and give all the Crips and Bloods hugs, and tell them they shouldn't assume anything based on the colors they wear...I'm sure they'll listen and understand....
 
 
Tryphena Absent
08:01 / 11.08.03
I think I'll go to the worst section of L.A. and give all the Crips and Bloods hugs, and tell them they shouldn't assume anything based on the colors they wear...I'm sure they'll listen and understand....

Yes but if you know that what they're doing is wrong than why do you make the same type of snap judgements as them?

Now obviously I'm not implying that you hurt people or suggesting that you actually, you know, go do that because I'm not an idiot and it's not unusual to be biased either for or against people on grounds of appearance. I'm sure that Fly has quite a few biases that lean a different way to yours but dislike seems a little strong.

At the same time yours is the perfect example of the way that we decide the simplest thing- who to bother talking to.
 
 
Linus Dunce
14:46 / 11.08.03
I think one has every right to prejudge people based on their dress, negatively or positively. If I'm standing at a bus stop at night and one of a pair of strangers in ties and corduroy jackets stops and asks me for a light, I'd be pretty sure that's all they wanted. However, if those same men were wearing sports gear and sovereign rings, I'd be a fucking idiot for not keeping my eyes open. Overall, it's unlikely I'd be mugged by either. And there may come a time that university lecturers wear Nike head to toe and wannabe gangsters dress up smart like they did in the good old days. But in London, August 2003, which pair is less unlikely to be street criminals?

As for "less intelligent," I personally wouldn't assume that from someone's dress unless, say, they had their shoes on the wrong feet. But I think, in the absence of any other information, the assumption that someone was naive, ill-educated or just plain snobby (with studs in face or in collar) is more valid than the idealist faith that we're all the same underneath.

Of course, if this prejudice is proven wrong by something one could have been reasonably expected to know IRL, or found out later, that's something else entirely. As would be unqualified statements promoting negative stereotypes.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:27 / 11.08.03
they had their shoes on the wrong feet.

And who's to say they're not part of a research study to see how many people actually notice?
 
 
Professor Silly
15:42 / 11.08.03
re: Ignatius_J -- "ill-educated" better describes what I'm talking about rather than "less intelligent"...thank you. However, I wouldn't say we all have the right to make these snap decisions about folk based on their appearance...I think we all do it to some degree whether conciously or subconciously. To be glib (humerous overgeneralization alert!!!) I could say that when I see a hippy I tend to expect for them to be kinda smelly. It doesn't mean ALL hippies smell bad. Or when I see someone decked out in Nike gear I tend to look at them as blind consumers. Here's the kicker--when I see fat people I tend to look at them as lazy and less educated (end overgeneralization alert). I think everyone does this to some degree. I think a woman SHOULD feel extra alert if alone at a bus stop when two drunk football enthusiasts show up.

All in all, "less intelligent" or whatever merely describes one generalization people can make based on appearance. "More intelligent" might occur with others, or "cool" or "lazy" or "poor" or "rich" or "self-concious" etc.

Something I've been a little preoccupied with lately is the idea of suits (from the Invisibles) and how it correlates to the idea of residual-self-image in the Matrix. We all choose how we present ourselves to those around us. A woman I work with, Grendel, takes this to the extreme: she has various wigs, and tends to wear unique corsets and dress slacks--combined with her facial tattoo and the makeup she wears and she presents an image (almost) as extreme as Ragged Robin. Dare I say she is one of my favorite people in the world, because she's a strong woman who has her own sense of style. As Anna mentioned, when I first met her I HAD to talk to her and get to know her. Someone dressed as a poor drug-addicted Axl Rose-wannabe might not enthuse me as much.
Meanwhile, I've been having more fun with my own clothes, hairstyle, etc. To paraphrase Frank Zappa: Everyone wears a uniform, and don't kid yourself that you're any different. So why shouldn't we have more fun with the way we dress, and try and shatter other people's expectations and prejudices?

Might point being that some of this can be healthy. It's when taken to the point of a) refusing to get to know somebody based on these preconceptions or b) threatening them with violence that I think it become UNhealthy. For example, one of my other co-worker is a guy who has been to prison and calls women "bitches" etc...my initial reaction to him was fairly negative. As I got to know him I discovered his interest in botony--he grows minature little trees--and suddenly he seemed a little more interesting. If my prejudice had kept me from making that discovery then THAT I'd see as an unhealthy shame. To make an example of the latter point above, I barely made it through parts of public school, bacause most of the jocks assumed (based on my mannerisms) that I was gay--and they wanted to beat me up for it. To this day I get really pissed off when I see someone threatening someone else with violence for what they choose to wear.
 
 
Linus Dunce
15:48 / 11.08.03
Or an undercover cop? Or an alien from the planet Zorg? But what are the chances of that?
 
 
Rage
12:09 / 28.09.03
Wow: you guys were pretty horrible to me when I was going through all that teenage bullshit. Jeez.

Anyway, I met this guy online with a bunch of facial piercings. He listens to powernoize industrial hardcore shit, and has a tattoo that says "Ubermensch" across his chest. We got into a conversation on AIM, and he kept using the term "lol." There is no way I'd associate his text with his physical image, though I did find the combination to be hilarious. When I confronted him on my amusement, he asked me something to the effect of: "What? Do you expect me be evil badass 24/7?"

I do think that intellectuals frown on people who look counterculture, and this partially has to do with the majority of stylish people being utter morons. I've always wondered why things were like this: why the people I've enjoyed talking to have usually been so bland looking. I think that intelligent people need to start dressing "cool" again: for the simple reason that the brains of the counterculture being represented by incognito agents isn't very memorable in the visual playfield.


"Movie Night was a great time. A pleasant initiation into the RTP goth peeps. Lots of really kickass and FRIENDLY people....wheeeeeeeeee!"
 
  

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