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Prom: Whites Only

  
  

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Linus Dunce
18:13 / 09.05.03
Ah yes, but your neighbourhood doesn't actually belong to you in any legal sense so therefore you have no actual right to decide who lives there and who doesn't. It's not your property.

If I understand the prom story correctly, it wasn't actually the school prom -- that was mixed -- but instead an additional, private party. (So, if you take this interpretation of the law on its own, they can decide who goes and who doesn't. It reminded me of Bob Jones' University in SC, a private university that had banned interracial coupling previous to 2000. They gave up this rule after quite some publicity.) But private or not, overt discrimination is presumably illegal under federal law and probably state, too, though I imagine the latter, if so, has been conveniently forgotten/reinterpreted. It's been a long time since the civil war and yet the federal government still seems reluctant to mess again with state matters and I suppose these schools know it.

I guess the answer may be that a populace that is allowed to indulge its petty, provincial prejudice, is scared silly of people with different-coloured skin and is taught in school that God created the universe in six days less than 7,000 years ago is easier to rule ...
 
 
Salamander
04:29 / 10.05.03
If its a private, separate party, anyone can be bared, and it's not against the law. It is unfair yes, but the American constitution nowhere garantees fairness. And racism and discrimination are two differnet things. Discrimination in being able to tell the differance between two different things, racism is hating people that have differnet colored skin. Racism is not illegal here, a man is just as free to be racist as he is to be an ignorant shit eating southerner (though maybe we should avoid ad hominum arguements). Racist driven or not, wrong or not, a private party is just that. The US keeps things in the public social discourse racialy equal, but cannot and should not compel individuals to change there private lives for the sake of racial equality. People are free here to be stupid and cruel, as long as no public racially driven inequality occurs, and no one is physically harmed.
 
 
Linus Dunce
13:19 / 10.05.03
After some reflection ("Of course -- the ERA!") and research, I can't argue with that except that your definition of discrimination is quite abstract and not in line with usage in what legislation there is.

This "prom" isn't really private in the spirit of the law though, I think.
 
 
Salamander
06:36 / 11.05.03
eh, in the end the question is, why would a person want to be among people that doesnt want that person there? Seems like an empty gesture these days, and no its not the legislative def., unfortunately. Law makers do like to keep things vague though.
 
 
GreatForm
23:50 / 13.05.03
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ideas_opinions/story/82768p-75763c.html
 
 
Rage
08:21 / 15.05.03
Nobody said segregation was cool, Cherry. Don't put text into my mouth.

I asked if an all white prom was mildly subversive.

"There is of course a movement on the side of both whites and blacks that says yes, that's the answer, keep us separate. Do you agree with this?"

Of course not. I just think it's mildly subversive in these times.

While I don't agree with the idea of keeping blacks and whites separate, I do agree with the idea of people who agree with that idea: or any idea: being able to express it.

Build a water fountain that everyone can use. Or nobody. Or only people who wear the color blue. You built the water fountain: you should be able to do what you want with it, no? Why should things be universal? Why not individual? If a school has an all white prom it can have an all girl prom or an all senior prom or an all black prom or a prom for everyone in the entire universe... yay for the school.

Why do people continue to discriminate against people who choose to discriminate? It's like I said over here, it's extremely hypocritical. An ideal world, at least to me, is a world in which people do whatever the fuck they want. This includes holding any type of prom, regardless of popular opinion.

The future is about allowing all possibilities. You think you're so progressive, yet you're not even open to the possibility of unlimited options.
 
 
Jack Fear
12:46 / 15.05.03
Does "being open to the possibility of unlimited options" mean you have to disable your crap-filter? Because, you know, you're right: it's a world of infinite possibilities—and at every moment, with every choice you make, you're faced with zillions of options.

But as a practical matter, you (and by "you" I mean everyone)instantaneously and without noticing discard 98% of those possibilities: in part because utter unlimited freedom, as the French existentialists liked to point out, is terrifying and leads inevitably to paralysis—but mostly because 98% of your possible courses of action are just plain rock fuck stupid.

The remaining 2% constitutes a rich, deep vein for debate—rich enough, deep enough, to keep humanity tied up in philosophical knots for generations.

You've got to draw a line somewhere, just as a practical matter.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
21:43 / 17.05.03
Wow. Where do I start? Not sure exactly. But I think I will start here: I believe quite strongly in the fact that all people on this earth deserve respect. All people on this earth deserve food, clothing, shelter, etc. (whatever one needs to ensure basic survival.) And yes, that includes "bad people." How to deal with criminals and people who are dangerous to society is an entirely different matter, and in the interests of not derailing this thread, I will ask that if you'd like to discuss it, please start another thread about that.

I made a personal vow to myself eons ago that I would always take a stand against discrimination, or perhaps a better choice of words would be against hate and fear but in this case we willl say discrimination against the package rather than the person. I'll get to that in a moment. Whether that be against people because of color, sex, sexual preference, whatever. I would always say something if someone made a racist or sexist or homophobic or generally hateful and I have to say ignorant comment. And I am proud to say that I have been pretty true to this vow.

And so, yes rage, I discriminate against people who discriminate. You may call this hypocritical but I don't think so. By the way, definition of "discrimate" is, according to dictionary.com, is:


1.
a. To make a clear distinction; distinguish: discriminate among the options available.
b. To make sensible decisions; judge wisely.

2. To make distinctions on the basis of class or category without regard to individual merit; show preference or prejudice: was accused of discriminating against women; discriminated in favor of his cronies.


I like to think that when I choose to not spend time with people who are racist, or "discrimate against people who discriminate,' I'm using the word in the first sence. By the way, that doesn't mean, again, being disrespectful and hateful. "An ignorant shit-eating Southerner" ? I'm truly at a loss for words.

Moving on. Actually, the American constitution does guarantee equal rights for all MEN at least. And most states and cities have laws that outlaw discrimination. Following them is of course another matter, but...

EE, if I want to buy house in Town X, and nobody in Town X will sell one to me, aren't I then BY DEFINITION forced to look elsewhere for a house? Also interested in your comment that following the Top 5 Neighborhoods hub-hub, "people want to keep it that way" to imply that's why they don't want black folks moving in. And the people there are "basically not racist" but think a black family moving in is not good?

Imagine if my high school decided to hold its prom and then said, "Oh by the way only people whose last name is Rule can come," wouldn't that be stopping me from getting to enjoy something that I thought was a school activity? And I haven't even done anything wrong like gotten caught with dope or been tardy too many days - rather I'm just born with the wrong last name? That school is sending the message to those students that segregation is acceptable and excluding people on the basis of race is OK, and I don't think that's too cool.

Safe spaces: I think white people have more than their share of them. T`his is kind of like the "Why do black people need a magazine like 'Ebony'? " question.

Finally while I agree with you Rage in that we should not be afraid to think outside of the box and realize that our only limitation is ourselves (at least, I THINK this is what you're trying to say), I personally at least don't feel limited when I refuse to consider fascism, or a world based on hate as an option. There are some worlds that quite frankly I don't want to live in. And if you are honest, there are some worlds that YOU don't want to live in, either. Study them, think about them sure, but accept as a possibility? No I don't think so. If I'm mis-reading you, please explain further.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
21:50 / 17.05.03
Oh, forgot to mention, by no stretch of the imagination do I think I Have It All Figured Out and I treat and think about everyone I meet and see with absolute equality. Am I prejudiced? Or course. Everyone is to some extent. But I'm just trying to evolve. Human beings used to need to be prejudiced - back when we lived in caves, if a yellow tribe came by and killed people in your tribe, well then yeah you bet your ass it would pay to be wary the next time a different yellow tribe came by! But, I think we've come a long way since then, and we should try to act like it.

Well, I'm going to try anyway.
 
 
Ganesh
09:09 / 18.05.03
"Subversive" in a largely neutral sense of 'undermining orthodoxy/authority'? Well, yeah, I guess - depending on how one chooses to perceive the orthodoxy/authority. Shitting on one's dinner tray would be equally subversive - probably more so, since it wouldn't simply reflect a retrograde 'step back in time' to fifty-odd years ago.

Yes, the all-white prom is "mildly subversive" (albeit in a rather unoriginal way) - but its 'subversiveness' is not an argument for or against the event itself, and largely irrelevant.
 
 
DuskySally
22:38 / 18.05.03
Rage, although the school wasn't putting up the "white prom" if the school had been, that would be my real problem.If the school is a public school, then it is owned by the local government, which answers to the federal government, which says that segregation with their cash is a big no no. That's more an issue of semantics, though. I agree that all ideas should be allowed, although I certainly wouldn't be pleased if those ideas got me killed. (Not to say that all ideas except that ones that might get me killed are okay, just to say that I'd be pretty annoyed.)

I can't really make any judgments about the people who wanted or went to a whites only prom. I'm actually kind of surprised that we all started considering the white people involved in this rather than the black people who are being excluded, and have to live down there with all of that.I can personally say that being excluded from things because I'm black- and it happens a little more often than I'd like, even in the north- knocked me for a loop, and brought in a lot of irrational and angry thinking I could do without. And it doesn't even matter if you didn't want to go to a private party with these people, it's just so frustrating. Hate breeds hate, and I hope the black people down there can deal with it. I'd be hard pressed to think of an entirely constructive way to do so. That's how I've chosen to reconcile it.
 
  

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