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Translation Thread

 
 
pacha perplexa
14:36 / 25.04.03
I'm creating this thread to help me and others with the translation of English texts to Portugese. My intent is to ask my English speaking friends about strange expressions and words found in writings in this language that cannot be figured out via dictionary.

(Not sure if it's in the right place, so moderator, do whatever you see fit)

Ok, here's the first one: "... a magia, producing real results (like fire in a wet faggot) for specific beneficent purposes".

"Fire in a wet faggot"? It doesn't seem that it would produce "real results". And what is the meaning of "faggot" here? I'm tempted to translate it as "como fogo num graveto molhado" - "like fire in a wet wooden stick", but it doen't make sense...

Heeelp!
 
 
Ariadne
15:11 / 25.04.03
Hello Pacha!

Well, you're right that a faggot is a wooden stick, usually used when lighting fires (or a meat product from the north of England - I assume they don't mean that...)

So it does make sense in that a wet faggot would be hard to light, I suppose - though hardly impossible, unless it was soaked through.

Is this any help at all? I'm not sure!
 
 
The Apple-Picker
15:43 / 25.04.03
Yeah, a fagot (one G, here in the US at least) is a bundle--usually a bundle of sticks.

The fire in a wet fagot is a fire in a wet bundle of sticks.
 
 
The Apple-Picker
15:45 / 25.04.03
Oops. One G and two Gs are variants of each other. I'm just used to the one G spelling.
 
 
pacha perplexa
16:03 / 25.04.03
Hi, Ariadne! Hi, Apple-Picker! Thanks, I think I'll keep my original translation, then. Problem is that it doesn't make sense the comparison - as I understood - between "producing real results" and setting "fire in a wet faggot"... Why "wet"? Why not just "faggot"? (or "fagot", heh, I didn't know US had it different - livin'and learning...)

It's weird. Does this mean that the magic that produces real results is "hard" to do, just like it's hard lighting a wet bundle of sticks?

God, sorry to bother you people with that - as I read my post now it seems so irrelevant in the great scheme of things.
 
 
gravitybitch
16:15 / 25.04.03
Ok, here's the first one: "... a magia, producing real results (like fire in a wet faggot) for specific beneficent purposes".

It is a comparison here - getting a fire going in wet sticks is difficult; if you succeed then it must be magic - I think what they're going for is that "real" magical results would be those you wouldn't be able to produce through normal means.
 
 
pacha perplexa
16:21 / 25.04.03
Here's another one, from a poem (the entire first part, so you can have an idea what it is about):

"Earendel sprang up from the ocean's cup
In the gloom of the mid-world's rim
From the door of Night as a ray of light
Leapt over the twilight brim
And launching his bark like a silver spark
From the golden-fading sand
Down the sunlit breath of Day's fiery death
He sped from [b]Westerland[/b]"

"Westerland". Is it a junction between "west" and "land"? Is it where the Sun sets? Is it the same as "Land of the west"?
 
 
pacha perplexa
16:31 / 25.04.03
Yes! That's it, cheers Iszabelle
You know, I was talking to Meme Buggerer the other day and we came to the conclusion that the English language is more "dynamic" in that it allows the writer to "hide" certain parts of his thinking because his readers will know how to fill in the gaps. Portugese is a very obvious language: from the first grades children are taught to expose everything, showing exactly how they got to that conclusion/point. Such a lack of subtlety.
That is to say: pardon my lack of attention.
 
 
Persephone
16:54 / 25.04.03
Ah yeah I love that, I'm always doing that. At the expense of ever producing a whole piece of writing, that is. It's like the inner space of writing. It's really too bad that there's no market for individual sentences.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
11:04 / 26.04.03
Pacha! Hello!

{EFL TEACHER/LANGUAGE GEEK} I think a lot of what you're running into is English idioms and also very unusual words that you may have or you not have in portuguese. Isn't it interesting how languages reveal things about the culture in which it's used?

{/EFL TEACHER /LANGUAGE GEEK}

I personally have never heard the fire in a wet faggot thing. That's pretty unusual.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:29 / 26.04.03
"Fire with damp kindling" might be as well as an equivalent...

As for Westerland - well, it's a place, isn't it? Westernesse, that is. So you could import it unchanged, or do something in Portugese like "The Western Land"...specifically, it's where the men of Numenor came from, yes? So, it's something like the land of the setting sun...it's a bit like Tir Na Nog or Fairyland...unless my references are all off.
 
 
pacha perplexa
20:17 / 26.04.03
Yep, I imagine Westerland is a place. "Wester+Land" is, for me, a funny link of words - so the author actually cut the "n" from "western" so that it would fit with "land"... Is this kind of word construction usual in english?

"The land of the setting sun" fits quite well with what I imagined, actually. I guess it'll be "terra do sol poente", or "terra do poente"... or just "Terra do Oeste".

specifically, it's where the men of Numenor came from, yes?

Heheh, this is so "haus", you know? It's wonderful, I didn't think anyone would guess where the verse is from. Yep, I think it refers to Numenor, but since it's from one of Tolkien's earliest writings, he hadn't come up with the numenorians yet, so can't be sure. It would be easier if I could just put "Numenor"...

I also can't keep "Westerland" as it is because Tolkien made rules for the translations of his works (which I don't have)where he doesn't allow this kind of thing - for him, there has to be an adaptation of the words to the language they're being translated to (unless the original words are in elfic, of course).


Cherry! Hi, darling!

It is indeed very interesting; it not only shows things about the culture, but how we experience reality differently from you english speakers. If we analyse headlines from newspapers in english and then in portuguese, for example, you'll see how english speakers need less words to pass on ideas. It's fascinating: you have lots of verbs which can be used to describe loads of actions each (like "get"), whilst we have very few of these. (I love this subject, but it probly requires a thread of its own.)
 
 
The Photographer in Blowup
17:09 / 28.04.03
"The land of the setting sun" fits quite well with what I imagined, actually. I guess it'll be "terra do sol poente", or "terra do poente"... or just "Terra do Oeste".

Just an opinion, couldn't it be translated also as 'Terra Ocidental' - my first lesson on translation was never to be too literal regarding the original text, but since 'Westerland' is a combination of an a noun and an adjective, i think there's no reason why 'Wester' couldn't be translated as the adjective 'Ocidental'

plus, it keeps the fluidity of the original 'Westerland' - in 'Terra do Oeste/Poente' i think the preposition 'do' sort of breaks the rhythm of the verse.

Less is more.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
17:31 / 28.04.03
'Wester' is what the sun and the stars do as they move west across the sky - as in 'The weeping Pleiades wester' (Housman), hence setting sun. It can also mean 'from the west'.

IIRC it's a bit like Hy Brasil and all the other lost lands (the Drowned Cantref etc) in that it gets swallowed up in a deluge after the last king in Numenor tries to land in the Undying Lands.

So the name 'Westernesse' probably compasses the idea of the setting sun, the western land, and the West as idea and home of the Numeoreans(as opposed to the less 'high' races of Middle-Earth).

Interestingly 'westernais' is a middle English term meaning 'wrongfully, perversely' (it says 'ere). Sounds like the sort of thing Tolkien would have known...
 
 
pacha perplexa
18:53 / 28.04.03
'Wester' is what the sun and the stars do as they move west across the sky - as in 'The weeping Pleiades wester' (Housman), hence setting sun. It can also mean 'from the west'.

So it is a word rather than an "adaptation" of a word - and its meaning is gorgeous.

Deux ex, I agree with you about the "Terra Ocidental". Still, I'll have to consider the poetics in the verse, and try to keep its style, so to say. "Land from the West" (is this right?), "Western Land", "Land of the Setting Sun" and "Sunset Land" (Terra do Poente) are all, methinks, aesthetically different from each other. "Sunset", for instance, gives the idea of "darkness/night approaching" much more than "Western" does - it so happens that, in this context, Earendel rides his bark into a dark, or darkened place.

Yet, as Kit says:

So the name 'Westernesse' probably compasses the idea of the setting sun, the western land, and the West as idea and home of the Numeoreans(as opposed to the less 'high' races of Middle-Earth).

"West" has probably more to do with the context than "setting sun".

I agree with you in that it could break the verse's rhythm to put a "do" in "Terra do Oeste/Poente/Crepúsculo". But, quoting Kit, again:

"'Wester' is what the sun and the stars do as they move west across the sky"

There's an idea of movement. "Ocidental" is "unmoving", if you catch my meaning, as opposed to "Poente" or "Ocidente"... They're like "O Sol se pondo", because of "-ente".

I don't know.
Btw, who are you? Are you a portugese-speaking barbelither? A brazilian, maybe? Sorry, just curious
 
 
The Photographer in Blowup
19:30 / 28.04.03
You're right in many aspects, pacha.

Forgot another rule in translation: consider always the context, upon which Kit shone some light.


Brazilian, baby? Nope, i'm a regular old-fashioned portuguee
 
  
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