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Guantanamo Bay

 
  

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Baz Auckland
10:44 / 23.04.03
(I couldn't find an old thread to put this in)

Minors being held at Guantanamo Bay

The US military has admitted that children aged 16 years and younger are among the detainees being interrogated at its prison camp in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

Lieutenant Colonel Barry Johnson, a US military spokesman, yesterday said all the teenagers being held were "captured as active combatants against US forces", and described them as "enemy combatants".

The US military confirmed their presence yesterday after Australia's ABC television reported that children were being held at Guantanamo, the controversial detention centre where prisoners from the war in Afghanistan have been held by the US, in breach of the Geneva conventions, for over a year.

The news sparked outrage from human rights groups already campaigning against the indefinite detention of the roughly 660 males from 42 countries, held on suspicion of having links to al-Qaida or Afghanistan's ousted Taliban regime. They have not been charged or allowed access to lawyers.


All of this is horrible enough in of itself, but will these people ever be released?

Lt Col Johnson said the juveniles were being held because "they have potential to provide important information in the ongoing war on terrorism".

"Their release is contingent on the determination that they are not a threat to the [US] nation and have no further intelligence value."


Wouldn't they have gotten all possible information out of these people after a year? What information would a 15-year old have?

Lawyers have blamed the indefinite detentions for increasing depression and suicide attempts at the camp, which received the first detainees in January 2001.

According to the US military, there have been 25 suicide attempts by 17 prisoners at Camp X-Ray, with 15 attempts made this year.
 
 
Baz Auckland
22:40 / 03.05.03
Colin Powell trying to be the voice of reason? or of lesser evil?

Powell Urges Pentagon to Act on Detainees

In a strongly worded letter, Secretary of State Colin Powell has urged Pentagon officials to move faster in determining which prisoners held at Guantanamo Bay can be released, defense officials said Saturday

Since the prison was opened in January 2002, only 22 people are known to have been released. They were all men, including one who was mentally ill and another reported to be in his 70s.

Citing complaints from eight allies whose citizens are among the prisoners, Powell said in the letter that mishandling the detainees undermines efforts to win international cooperation in the war on terror, U.S. News and World Report reported.


Powell asked Rumsfeld why it is taking so long to reach "a final determination" on the prisoners' fate, and Rumsfeld later agreed to speed up the release of around 100 detainees sought by the United Kingdom, Russia, Pakistan and Spain, the magazine said.
 
 
grant
14:25 / 02.10.03
As one might expect, the less that happens, the more things get weird.

From a couple days ago:
Washington Times: Guantanamo espionage probe grows

From today:
Salt Lake City Tribune: Espionage may have hurt war on terror

Apparently, three Americans, including an Islamic chaplain at the base, have been arrested for espionage.

There's suspicion they passed messages to the Syrian government... and possibly to Al Qaeda. One of the three, an Egyptian-born translator, was found in a Boston airport with a CD containing information from interrogations.

And here's an interesting paradox:
One intelligence official said any damage done would be minimal because the prisoners had been grilled for up to a year or more before the accused men started working at Guantanamo Bay.
Yet in the past, military officials have justified holding prisoners indefinitely by saying it has taken months or years to get some to give useful information.


So at the very least, these spy trials might shake something loose on the Guantanamo front.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
15:56 / 02.10.03
Depending, of course, on whether they take place in public or in some dark and non-judicial corner.
 
 
Person
04:26 / 03.10.03
Rumsfeld has already said "Our interest is in not trying them and letting them out, ... Our interest is in -- during this global war on terror -- keeping them off the streets, and so that's what's taking place."

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/09/11/military.trials.ap/index.html

Yeah, like this regime will ever declare that war over. Note the date of this statement, which basically ensured it'd be buried. Also, note the interesting implication that upon trial these people would be let out.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
14:31 / 03.10.03
There are plenty of things that make me ashamed to be human. Guantanamo Bay is one of them, albeit a recent entry in the Top 10.

I know diplomacy works like that, but every time I hear about the UK asking politely (not demanding, see?) for decent treatment for the BRITISH inmates (and the others can fuck off), I find myself wondering if some fucker just blowing us all to hell and gone may be entirely wrong?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
15:25 / 03.10.03
Yes. For precisely the same reason it's wrong to keep those people in Camp X-Ray without trial or basic human rights.
 
 
gozer the destructor
11:38 / 21.10.03
This was the most relevant thread I could find to let people know that I had a stint as guard in the Manchester camp x-ray action/ art instalation (sp?). (See the UHC arts collective website)

From 8am thurs till 8am fri i was an american soldier detaining ilegal enemy combatants in the war against terrorism. At 9.30 al-jazeera arrived and interviewed one of the prisoners as well as Jai the main organiser. The prisoner was bound with handcuffs, blindfolded and limeted in what they were allowed to say by a representative who would occasionally interject, "the prisoner is not a liberty at this time to disclose that information".

The really amazing thing was just how much the local community got behind the project. With only a few exceptions (notably a bus driver pulling up outside the gate shouting 'i was in the army, your all bastards, £5000, what a waste of money', a near direct quote from the days sun article) the support was incredible. From the family of one of the detainees who came over to thank the group for their efforts to raise awareness to the drug dealers who turned up a 2am to ask if we wanted any supplies. This was an experience I will never forget and one that has inspired me to do a bit more.

Solidarity

Gozer the D.
 
 
Baz Auckland
15:41 / 24.11.03
20 prisoners released, 20 more arrive...

"The U.S. government released 20 more prisoners from its high-security jail for rebel suspects in Cuba, the Pentagon said today.

After they were returned Friday to their home countries, the U.S. military Sunday brought some 20 new suspects to the facility from an undisclosed location, officials said. The Sunday transfer means the prison on the U.S. naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, still holds some 660 people.

So far 88 people have been transferred out of Guantanamo — 84 to be released in their countries and four transferred into Saudi Arabian prisons for continued detention. In addition to those released Friday, Prosper said several dozen others will be sent to their home countries at an undisclosed time for a lengthy process of investigation, detention and prosecution. He described them as posing "a medium-level threat" to the world.


On the bright side, at least there are people getting released? The horrible downside, is that some of those 'released' may be in a Saudi prison for the rest of their lives, whether they're Saudi or not...
 
 
Jrod
15:49 / 27.11.03
The situation at Gitmo is truly shameful. I really never thought that the US would ever wipe it's ass with the Geneva Convention... Then we complain when Iraqis don't follow the conventions to a T. Almost comical, if it weren't so sad.

The US' treatment of "enemy combatants" will return to haunt us. Eventually it will be US soldiers who are captured and find themselves classified as enemy combatants, or anything but POWs.

Seriously, how is somebody captured in the course of a war not a prisoner of war? If they're not POWs, we might as well call them blueberry muffins for all the sense it makes.
 
 
Baz Auckland
16:37 / 20.04.04
Case of Guantanamo prisoners before the Supreme Court today

The United States has created a "lawless enclave" at a military base in Cuba where more than 600 men from 44 countries are being held without access to American courts, a lawyer for the men told the Supreme Court on Tuesday.

Attorney John Gibbons said "it's been plain for 215 years" that people in federal detention may file petitions in U.S. courts. Their appeal, the first major challenge arising from the U.S. war on terror to reach the high court, asks a basic legal question: Can foreign-born prisoners picked up overseas and held outside U.S. borders use American courts to try win their freedom?

Gibbons said the men should have some way to get their complaints before a judge. The United States holds the only real control over the Guantanamo Base, and U.S. law governs what happens there, Gibbons replied. "No other law applies there. Cuban law doesn't apply there," he said.

Without that oversight by U.S. judges, there would be no checks and balances on the president's power at Guantanamo, Justice Stephen Breyer observed later. "The executive would be free to do whatever they want,"

In addition to the jurisdictional issue raised by the Guantanamo case, the court next week takes up two related cases about the rights of American citizens labeled enemy combatants and held under similar restrictions.

In the Guantanamo case, the Bush administration's top Supreme Court lawyer argued in court filings that allowing the prisoners to go to court would "place the federal courts in the unprecedented position of micromanaging the executive's handling of captured enemy combatants from a distant zone."

The Bush administration asserts the right to hold and interrogate the men as long as necessary, without formal charges or the guarantee of a trial or access to a lawyer. The administration also asserts the men are not traditional prisoners of war, who would have guaranteed rights under the Geneva Convention.


I sure as hell hope this case wins... otherwise, the precendent of the government to round up anyone from anywhere and ship them off for ifinity to some corner of the world is really, really, really, scary...
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
16:47 / 28.06.04
Guantánamo detainees granted access to US courts. The US supreme court has ruled that prisoners seized as potential terrorists and held for more than two years in Guantánamo bay may challenge their captivity in US courts.

Hah! In your face Shrub-boy!

However, do all the inmates have lawyers who can use this to challenge the Administration over their incarceration? And can the US Government put this on hold by appealing against this ruling for ever?
 
 
flufeemunk effluvia
19:03 / 28.06.04
Not really, unless Bush is reelected. There are at least two justices retiring in the next two years and he'll probably push for a hawkish successor to help overturn a precedent like that which hurts his precious war on terrah.
 
 
Jub
05:46 / 30.06.04
Law Society News Release:

Law Society reaction to US Supreme Court Guantanamo Bay judgment

Commenting on the US Supreme Court ruling, Peter Williamson, Law Society President, said;

"Surely the US Government can no longer flout its own laws and ignore international standards. As a lawyer, the Prime Minister must recognise the significance of this Supreme Court ruling and urgently do all he can to ensure the British detainees receive a fair trial in a US court or are returned home to face justice."
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:18 / 30.06.04
do all the inmates have lawyers who can use this to challenge the Administration over their incarceration?

Well the legal teams working on Guantanamo have been hounded within an inch of their lives, they won't even send any information out via email so the inmates are going to very lucky to have a fair trial even now.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
21:51 / 10.06.06
The man in charge of Guantanamo makes an absurd and disgusting statement about three detainees who have killed themselves in Guantanamo.

Rear Adm Harris said he did not believe the men had killed themselves out of despair.

"They are smart. They are creative, they are committed," he said, quoted by Reuters.

"They have no regard for life, either ours or their own. I believe this was not an act of desperation, but an act of ...warfare waged against us."
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:57 / 10.06.06
That's...

well. That's fucked.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
22:12 / 10.06.06
Yes, rather strips your tongue of the ability to speak doesn't it.
 
 
*
01:40 / 11.06.06
The word where the ellipses are was "asymmetrical." In other words... what? Those bastards are vastly better at killing themselves than we are? Those horrible people are helpless before our might and they dare to fight back... by killing themselves? What, I ask you, the everloving fuck?
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
02:41 / 11.06.06
Wow. I really hate the fact that the country I live in allows this prison to exist. And I really hate the fact that people like this idiot get high ranking jobs in the military. And I really REALLY hate that people still side with the Shrub.
 
 
Riffers
10:33 / 20.06.06
Entity, I think the word ‘asymmetrical’ is a bit scarier than that in its use here. Asymmetrical warfare describes the tactics of a weaker force facing a far stronger opponent. Terrorism and guerilla warfare are its main staples. There has been an ongoing move to reposition these tactics as ‘evil’ or wrong as they may kill civilians, as opposed to the ‘good’ tactics such as shelling and aerial bombing which only cause regrettable collateral damage as an unintended side effect.

Thus the strong are seen as good and the week bad. An appealing position if you are on the side with the biggest military. Admiral Harris is certainly taking this to a new level, but the language does cleverly demonize a whole range of American enemies with the one brush. Suddenly even killing yourself in despair at your indefinite incarceration is just further proof that you needed to be there as you are part of the obvious terrorist/guerilla/suicide victim access of evil nouns.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
10:45 / 21.06.06
It's interesting that he refers to the dead people in the present tense as though death is something you can come back from. Do you think he's been reading too many comics?
"Sure, they're dead... for now."
 
 
grant
21:26 / 29.06.06
The Supreme Court weighs in, with a decision that has substantial repercussions.

I believe the analysis in that second link is pointing up the possibility that the current set-up could be construed as a war crime.

This ruling has enormous implications for the Administration's detention and interrogation practices, because the Administration's legal conclusion that CA3 does not apply, and that we will not apply it as a matter of practice, was the key linchpin to the entire edifice of legal maneuvers that led to waterboarding, hypothermia, degradation, etc. See my post here. Per today's decision, the Administration appears to have been engaged in war crimes, which are subejct to the death penalty. Although I don't think due process would allow prosecution based on conduct previously undertaken on OLC's advice that CA3 did not apply (after all, the Chief Justice concluded, in the D.C. Circuit, that CA3 did not apply), practices going forward are bound to change, and quick. (I'm sure the memos are being drafted and distributed in the CIA and DOD even as we "speak.")

Contrary to several blogs I've read, the Court did not hold that all of the protections of the Geneva Conventions apply to suspected Al Qaeda detainees, or that they are entitled to all of the protections of POWs. It held "merely" that the minimum baseline protections of Common Article 3 are binding -- which is a floor far, far higher than the practices of this Administration.


(Some of those terms are hotlinked in the article, if you want to read further, and there's plenty more text on site as well. "CA3" is "Common Article 3" of the Geneva Conventions.)
 
 
Dragon
00:44 / 04.07.06
It's always been my understanding that the Supreme Court only ruled on US law. That it mentioned the Geneva Conventions seems odd to me.

Also, my understanding, without reading all the articles on the subject, that the decision did not stop people from being detained at Gitmo, not did it stop us from trying them how we saw fit. The only catch is that the Congress has to make the rule official that we can use military tribunals, and how it should be carried out.

Historically, we've not had to take prisoners at all. In point of fact, Japanese prisoners were shot instead of detained, because we could not afford the time and resources to feed and house them on whatever Pacific island they happened to be found.

The worst case scenario for these prisoners could be that they are all transfered to their respective countries which would determine on their own how they would be handled. In that case, it would be ironic that the prisoners forced the issue in the first place.
 
 
elene
10:22 / 04.07.06
The USA signed the current (1949) revisions of the Geneva Conventions at the time and it ratified them in 1955. The Geneva Conventions became part of US law after ratification by Congress and the President.

Taliban fighters (an organized militia group belonging to a party to the conflict) are clearly covered by the Third Geneva Convention and the Supreme Court found that even al Qaeda are covered the Common Article 3

Among the provisions of Common Article 3,

    (d) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without
    previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all
    the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized
    peoples.

That does not describe US military tribunals.

You can find Common Article 3 here, but note that it's extended by Protocol II.

Among the provisions of Protocol II,

    Article 5.4. If it is decided to release persons deprived of their liberty,
    necessary measures to ensure their safety shall be taken by those so
    deciding.

meaning the USA must make sure they're safe when they release them, Dragon.
 
 
Dragon
15:21 / 04.07.06
The Geneva Conventions did not define a "regularly constituted court," but the five justices agreed such a tribunal must meet "the standards of our military justice system."

Looks to me like a military court is not out of the question. Otherwise, we will have to get rid of our military courts.
 
 
elene
15:54 / 04.07.06
If your military justice system has any standards, Dragon, then show me them.
 
 
elene
16:43 / 04.07.06
I should point out that US military justice normally refers to the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ), i.e. court-martial. I presume that is the standard the Supreme Court judges are referring to. Military commissions are very different, with lower standards of evidence than a civil court, (see Found: 'Non-contactable' witnesses who could free a Guantánamo detainee) and a lack of appeal (even in the case of a death sentence). It’s the standard of a military commission that, very probably, doesn’t "affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples."
 
 
Dragon
02:24 / 05.07.06
Here's a link to the UCMJ:
UNIFORM CODE OF MILITARY JUSTICE
 
 
elene
04:23 / 05.07.06
Thanks, Dragon. I'm no expert, but it seems to me that, with the proper oversight, this system should be able to deliver a fair trial. However,

   836. ART 36. PRESIDENT MAY PRESCRIBE RULES

but these are now restrained by the Geneva Conventions,

   831 ART. 31. COMPULSORY SELF-INCRIMINATION PROHIBITED

but this has already happened, effectively rendering anything the accused have said since their internment off-limits for the prosecution, and

   832. ART. 32. INVESTIGATION

the standard displayed this far is inadequate. Easily found witnesses must be found.

I don't actually think the USA will even attempt to try many of the prisoners using this system.
 
 
Dragon
12:32 / 05.07.06
I think the Congress will be examining objections that have been raised.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:44 / 05.07.06
Well, that's good news. Any idea of a date on that? Has there been an annnouncement? I'm afraid I've been away from the news today.
 
 
sleazenation
23:10 / 11.07.06
Looks like the US has made a U turn on the Geneva conventions and Guantanamo Bay... see this BBC story US detainees to get Geneva rights
 
 
Dragon
02:47 / 12.07.06
Your link wasn't working for some reason. Here is another BBC link. It doesn't sound like a 'U-turn' to me.
 
 
Slim
13:55 / 12.07.06
Perhaps not a U-turn but it is some type of turn. The U.S. has always claimed they treated their prisoners humanely even though they insisted that the Geneva Conventions did not apply. Now they are admitting that the Geneva Conventions do apply. Does this mean that the U.S. will improve conditions or is the same old thing with a new title?
 
  

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