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Underground > Laboratory >

Redheads and pain

16:14 / 21.04.03

Here, figure out what these findings mean:

New Scientist reports that redheads are more sensitive to pain.

"Red hair is the first visible human trait, or phenotype, that is linked to anaesthetic requirement," says anaesthesiologist Edwin Liem, who conducted the research at the Outcomes Research Institute of the University of Louisville, US.

Ten red-haired women between 19 and 40 years of age and ten more with dark hair were given a commonly-used inhaled anaesthetic in the study. After each dose of the anaesthetic, the women were given a standard electric shock.

The process was repeated until the women said they felt no pain. Their reflexes were also monitored to assess the effectiveness of the painkiller.

vs.

Reuters reports that redheaded women are less sensitive to pain.

But the gene, Mc1r, appears to impact pain suppression only in women, according to the study, published Monday in the advance online publication of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

The researchers found that redheaded women were able to tolerate more pain than other people when given an analgesic drug called pentazocine. All redheaded men, as well as men and women who did not have red hair, had similar-and lower-tolerance to pain with the drug compared with redheaded women.

This shows that the men and women are using different pain pathways, said Jeffrey S. Mogil, a professor of pain studies at McGill University in Montreal.

"If they were using the same pathways, then the redhead gene would have the same impact for both sexes," he added.

Whatcha think?

16:20 / 21.04.03

I'm probably replying too quickly, but...

Ten red-haired women between 19 and 40 years of age and ten more with dark hair were given a commonly-used inhaled anaesthetic in the study

Ten? So a really well rounded sample then. And they can present this as a research finding? Unless I'm missing something, there is nothing to say about the first piece of work, since next to nothing has been demonstrated.

17:14 / 21.04.03

Come now, Lurid. Surely 10 is enough of a sample to prove once and for all that red haired women are all witches? You know its true. We don't need science and statistics for this, years of stereotyping have just been proven! Get the torches!

17:24 / 21.04.03

Good point, cusm. I think we should have a register so we can keep an eye on 'em. And burn em when it gets cold.

18:53 / 21.04.03

WELL WE HAVE HIGHER PAIN THRESHOLDS SO WE'LL KICK YOUR ASSES!

Less searchable M0rd4nt

19:08 / 21.04.03

Well, according to a study I've just conducted, 100% of all left-handed Sagittarians are shortsighted and like beer. My sample? Well, there was me and umm... errr... Look! A blimp.

19:50 / 21.04.03

I would like to know more about each experiment before I was happy to draw any conclusion, even disregarding the tiny sample rate. It's not clear if it is the same drug being used in the experiment, or the same method used to stimulate pain. Those are big potential differences.

Is tolerance of pain the same as sensitivity to pain?

20:31 / 21.04.03

I'm guessing it's a different drug, and the sensation measured was different - one was an inhaled anesthetic (I'm guessing nitrous) and the other was an analgesic, like aspirin.

So I wonder if this points to a need for a better vocabulary surrounding pain. Or drug states, for that matter.

21:53 / 21.04.03

It does seem that this could have been a bit more thorough. When you're not really sampling that many people and there aren't hard facts on the drugs, what are we supposed to garner from this?

quoted from grant:

"So I wonder if this points to a need for a better vocabulary surrounding pain. Or drug states, for that matter."

Not to derail, but there's some difficulty in registering levels of pain and tolerance in people. One example... I have noticed that women tend to have less pain in the scalp area when you pull their hair. Not that I go around doing this all the time, but have seen it in karate over the years when doing throws.

Chronic pain especially tends to do weird things to people since its kind of in a feedback loop if you will. Take away the cause and you still have signal. My father has a pretty broad nerve disorder and trying to find the right treatment, how to administer it, and managing meds, etc. is quite difficult. He shares this occurance (TOS or Thoracic Outlet Syndrome) with a fairly broad cross-section of women (due to small body frame) who obtain the problem after repetitive injuries or violent trauma. Many of these women are administering themselves methadone and scoff at the thought of child-birth being painful.

I'd like to see more studies done on pain since many people suffer needlessly because doctor's are afraid to over-prescribe since there isn't a good scale to refer to. Hopefully pain will get its due concentration in time...

*

02:08 / 22.04.03

Response to pain is also partially learned and controllable, which makes any study on pain sensation very sketchy. On this, Hypnosis as Sedation Alternative, and anything on neurolinguistic programming and controlling sensation. If sensation of pain depends partly on attitude toward it, how can any study of this type show any controlled results?

04:26 / 22.04.03

And here I thought redheads were just better at causing pain.

ba dum BUM!!

18:48 / 22.04.03

true

20:25 / 22.04.03

Entitything - If sensation of pain depends partly on attitude toward it, how can any study of this type show any controlled results?

People vary a reasonable amount in reactions to medicine - attitude is just one of the factors that could be considered influential. I'm not certain you could ever really get a totally controlled result - I suspect the best you could hope for would be a majority verdict.

And just to hurl my potato into the pan, the missus is a redhead and supports the claim that her and her mates have a high tolerance of pain. However, she screamed the house down when I put her in the STF during SlapDown! [one of our regular inter-house wrestling matches to decide the champion of the world or whose turn it is to wash up]. She also screamed loudly even before I got halfway into the Mexican Surfboard. I suspect however that it was all just a cunning ploy to make me let go, providing her with the opportunity to punch me in the goolies.

So iszabelle is right really.

23:23 / 22.04.03

Yeah, but apparently we bruise like, and I quote my doc "bitches".

08:08 / 23.04.03

Having carried out unnecessary animal experiments on my female canine this morning, I can wholeheartedly condemn your doctor's statement as - at least in this case - inaccurate. In support of your general point however, I can give you the example of when the missus was bruised by the hem of her jeans. Which is just ridiculously sensitive, if you ask me.

So, returning to the original point in a round the houses and over the dales, with a quick stop at the chippy kind of way, if redheads bruise very easily [which in my experience, they do] and those bruises do hurt, even the small ones [learned the hard way] could it be argued that redheads are more and less sensitive at the same time?

Bear with me. Redheads are very easily injured physically but, because of that, they develop a higher tolerance of pain [possibly some sort of psychological or learned reaction]. Hmm.

*

18:16 / 24.04.03

"Entitything - If sensation of pain depends partly on attitude toward it, how can any study of this type show any controlled results?"

Precisely my point, y, and thank you for putting it more succinctly than I could in my usual genial but rambling style.

13:32 / 25.04.03

Wasn't there also an article somewhere about the emotional psychology of redheads? Or am I confusing this with the 'redheads have higher pain thresholds' article?

14:33 / 26.04.03

What did the emotional psycology about redheads say?
I'd say im perhaps more sensitive to emotional pain than others,(in other words, a complete jesse) but not physical in particular.

17:52 / 26.04.03

Bless you entitything, but it was a direct quote. I forgot to make it look more quotely. Good point though.

Is the point about emotional psychology another way of saying redheads are more likely to be aggressive nutters? 'Coz that makes a lot of sense...

*

18:44 / 26.04.03

*smacks self* D'oh!

19:59 / 26.04.03

Agressive nutters? Us? I'LL FUCKING KILL YAS ALL

Love xx

19:32 / 27.04.03

This must just be because of the recessive gene thing, right? (Surely nothing to do with that absurd cultural stereotype that redheads are prone to bouts of irrational anger?)

I have no idea whether I experience more or less pain than anyone else, as I have never experienced pain as anyone else. Nor do I have a violent temper; unless you count a mild tendency towards irascibility (i.e. I swear at my computer when someone says something idiotic online).

04:43 / 28.04.03

?? Is that irascibility a "kill the messenger" sort of thing, or just taking it out on the most readily available object?

The more that I think about it, the more I realize that I've been with more faux redheads than genuine ones (and the less said about the real-red ex-husband's ability to cause pain, the better; as that wasn't physical) so I'm probably not a good judge.

Can't say that I've seen that many genuine redheads at the last few leather-oriented parties I've been to, though...

11:41 / 28.04.03

Irascibility was the wrong word, really... I meant snappishness, irritability - irascibility implies a higher degree of temper, I think. I can't remember the last time I lost my rag with anyone without a high degree of provocation or angst being involved. My swearing at the computer (surely everyone does this anyway?) is along the lines of 'Oh for God's sake, you absolute twart, there's not even the vestige of an argument in that post...'

I honestly think the temper thing is a complete red herring. It might be that people notice people with red hair having tempers because they're expecting them to, so it reinforces the idea. But honestly, the number of absurd assumptions people make about you on the basis of your hair colour... it's like taking a sample of ten blondes and ten brunettes, giving them an IQ test and from those results deciding that blondes are more stupid than brunettes.

17:38 / 29.04.03

Yeah, gotta say thats so true.
I dont see the difference between anti red-head remarks and racism, besides the fact that racism is illegal. You'd think that living in scotland, people might not make a huge deal outta it, seeing as loads of people are red heads, but apparently not.
Not that i think the pain thing is anti red headism. Ok, i'll shut up now coz im talkin LUBBISH.

19:44 / 29.04.03

Not total rubbish, but I don't think people with red hair are institutionally oppressed in a way similar to racism... it is a bit tedious when people make assumptions about you based on your hair, but I don't think it's especially offensive in general. It can be used in bullying though, but that's the nature of bullying rather than of having red hair - anything that stands out gets seized on...

19:47 / 29.04.03

Yeah... i 'spose so. Well they'll be sorry when im famous and rich. Oh yes.

20:14 / 09.05.03

It proves nothing at all, but my friend prodded myself and my brunette friend, ronan, on the forehead simoultaneously, and he came up with a red splob, and i didnt.
Proves not much about pain, but is *extremely* scientific.

18:05 / 10.05.03

(as a scotsman)

It really is tribal behavhour, black, - pick one 'em, none, fat - pick on 'em, thin, pick on 'em, anyone who is "not us" (as defined by the majority you can associate yourself to" - pick on 'em.

It is in my biased opinion human behaviour. And if they can't think outside that, help them, and if they still go back, cut them

18:06 / 10.05.03

out, I hasten to emphasise.

Haus of Mystery

14:20 / 11.05.03

If this is of any help, my friend 'Bareknuckle Beauchamp' who has long been involved in the underground violence circuit is nigh impervious to pain. Indeed, I have seen him, stripped to the waste, battered beyond recognition, hands bloodied, screaming his name victoriously. And he's a ginger so, y'know, that kind of proves something.

14:24 / 15.07.03

Found another pain study:

Reporting in the early edition of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, investigators found that people who say a heat stimulus is more painful than others showed more activity in certain brain regions linked to pain.

These findings suggest that some people are more sensitive to pain, and may one day be used to individualize pain medication, Dr. Robert C. Coghill of Wake Forest University in Winston-Salem, North Carolina, told Reuters Health.

In the future, "we can start to actually, specifically test for pain sensitivity even before people go into surgery, for example," Coghill said.

and

During the study, Coghill and his team asked 17 people to rate the pain they felt from the same heat stimulus, on a scale of 0 to 10.

While applying the pain, the researchers performed brain scans on the participants, which measured activity in different regions of the brain.

In an interview, Coghill said that there was a large difference in how painful people rated the heat, with the most sensitive person giving a rating of almost 9 out of 10, and the least sensitive person placing the pain at around 1.

Brain scans revealed differences in participants who were more and less sensitive to the pain, Coghill noted. Specifically, people who rated the heat stimulus as more painful showed more activity in the brain regions known as the primary somatosensory cortex, the anterior cingulate cortex and the prefrontal cortex.

So, there's hope.

18:35 / 01.03.04

I just came across two really interesting studies on pain today.

In one, researchers are checking out the placebo effect and mapping the brain areas that placebos work on.

And in the other, cancer researchers are using radiowaves to help treat bone cancer sufferers.

I'd like more details on both of them.

Cheap. Easy. Cruel.

19:12 / 01.03.04

It seems to me, that these studies are not mutually exclusive. One measures their sensitivity to pain, the other measures their pain tolerance. Sensitivity to pain is a whole different animal than the ability to bear it.

Now if I can just find the place where they are experimenting on all of these redheads...

21:31 / 01.03.04

Owww, ooww, stoppit!