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Hero

 
  

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000
08:58 / 20.04.03
No one ever seen this yet?

I wan' talk.
 
 
Mr Tricks
20:03 / 21.04.03
Yeah, I've seen it...

I buddy of mine gave me a copy of the VCD... though the DVD is available... somewhat.

Not Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon... But as far as Jet Li's concerned it reveals Cradle 2 the Grave to be the abortion it should've remained...

That scen between Jet & Donnie Yen... now THAT'S Kungfu!!!
 
 
nihraguk
10:06 / 02.05.03
Seen it too; and what I particularly liked (upon recollection) was the usage of colour to characterise the three versions of the truth. Thought that was very well-executed. Also felt that the representation of the cultural .. nuance of that period was well done. The special effects/fighting scenes were slightly overwrought at times, like that scene between the two women where half of it has to do with the leaves, but on the whole, a pretty damn good crafting of a movie.
 
 
000
10:49 / 02.05.03
Overwrought, yes, but the forest fight scene was what I recall as being the best of the entire movie; a moody, aloof Maggie Cheung against Zhaing Zye (or whatever).

And you forgot to include Green, standing for memory (IMO).

It's a visual feast, the movie is, but the characters left me a little cold mainly because what these people represented were high ideals, I yearned a little for something a bit more mundane amidst the serious tone, and impossible to identify with leads.
 
 
quinine92001
16:02 / 03.06.04
The movie is better than Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. It is interesting that a friend of mine brought it over and we watched it just last night, now I seee that it is being prepared to be distrubuted in the US soon by Quentin Tarantino.
Love the use of color and the fight scene in the forest was great but would have been better if the scene was filmed in a cherry orchard and the wind was casting the blossoms to the ground instead of the autumn leaves falling. All in all a good flick, lots of action cool special effects, fights in the mind, a love story, and a philosophical reflection on calligraphy and swordfighting.
 
 
Cato.the.Elder
16:40 / 03.06.04
I loved this movie. I've been a Yimou fan for years, and it was an abolutely unexpected movie, so far from his great realistic tragedies or tragicomedies (another extrange movie was the comedy Keep Cool ). I think Hero is his more beatiful film. Every single image was amazing (and, of course, Zhang Ziyi helped a lot in this ).
 
 
Bear
17:10 / 03.06.04
Love Hero - saw it last year and got me interested in Jet Li, never knew about Tarintino taking it the states though?

Best thing in it was Daoming Chen as the King.
 
 
hanabius yamamura
20:42 / 03.06.04
... utter stupid question - i assume this is different from the movie 'A man called hero' from the Stormriders trilogy ... if so, does anyone have a link etc? appreciated dudes
 
 
Bear
21:46 / 03.06.04
Here's the imdb entry (number 163 in the top 250 no less) -

Hero

Def. worth checking out.
 
 
Bear
10:14 / 12.06.04
Trailers up on the apple site -

Hero

Watch it!
 
 
Tamayyurt
04:56 / 28.08.04
I just saw this. What a gorgeous movie. The colors and shots were all so beautiful and the action was fantastic.

The only bit that didn't quite work for me was the water fight scene. I mean, the shot of Falling Snow lying dead in the gazebo was very nice but the hopping about just above the water didn't look right.

Other than that, wow.
 
 
Tamayyurt
15:23 / 28.08.04
Also as a writer I have to say that I really liked the connection between calligraphy and sword fighting. And the idea that you could learn something about a person fighting technique by the way they write the character for sword.
 
 
netbanshee
21:02 / 28.08.04
I watched a vid of it last week and wasn't really all that impressed by it. Jet Li as well as the supporting cast are phenomenal in their craft and the effects were wonderful, yet I think that it was a visually beautiful film with too simple a premise. It just seemed to me that the film ebbed along and didn't have as strong as a narrative as say Crouching Tiger. I think if the story and characters were better developed, I would have connected with it more.
 
 
netbanshee
21:05 / 28.08.04
And a note on the calligraphy... it was a nice tie-in and a sincere look at the art of both typography and swordplay. I did enjoy that it was touched upon.
 
 
CameronStewart
14:16 / 29.08.04
I was in Hong Kong about two years ago when it had just been released and it was THE huge event movie over there, with mammoth posters of Jet Li and co. everywhere. I resisted picking it up on import dvd and finally saw the Miramax release last night.

A truly beautiful movie to watch, the photography is gorgeous and it's got one stunning image after another right the way through. Absolutely worth seeing on the biggest screen possible.

I'm not so sure about its political message, though. Essentially it's a film that champions the will of the state over the will of the individual. It's all very well and good for us as Westerners to view this film from a safe political distance and admire the pretty colour schemes, but place this in the proper context - this is a film made in China (basically a fascist state) for a contemporary Chinese audience, in which the message is that atrocity and tyranny is to be accepted because it is "for the good of the country" and dissidents are to be executed. And yes, I know that it's a retelling of an ancient Chinese legend, but its clearly a story chosen for its resonance and relevance in contemporary time.

I'm curious how many Westerners who see it will pick up on this.
 
 
Foust is SO authentic
18:10 / 29.08.04
Land and Cameron said everything I came here to say.
 
 
Seth
23:10 / 24.09.04
Just got back from seeing this. I went with my friend Helen and we were both blown away.

A thread bump for now, really... I want to collect some of my thoughts for a longer post, maybe see it again first... but, wow. Go see it is all I can say for now.
 
 
Aertho
21:13 / 26.09.04
On the politcal subject of the movie...

I really wasn't thinking in the terms of the nation of China at all. But now I am. And I don't know if I should say thank you or damn it.

After seeing the film, two months ago, borrowed from a friend, I was thrilled to see the theme reversal. I took the *** ***** ****** line as a vindication for seeing the world and revege in a repetitious context. And that the cycle would only end if the state is upheld. I saw it as period piece with worldcentric sociological themes. I loved it for that. But now, I'm examining Cameron's statements and giving credibility to the idea that the Chinese government may have a role in the subtext. Which, in a Chinese perspective, is plausable. I saw the silver lining. I could USE the silver lining. But now I see the cloud, and I can't use it.

I'm a silly optimistic American. Again.
 
 
Seth
21:46 / 26.09.04
I'm not really that fussed about the *message* here. Different culture, I know, but aren't most Yakuza movies ruthless in murdering their heros once they step beyond the bounds of proper etiquette? The viewer vicariously lives out their short-lived emotional rebellion while being reminded that death is the price to be paid for that kind of individualism. Hero represents the same form seen as from China, another culture that broadly values societal norms in favour of the favourite Western theme of the triumph of the individual. The themes at the heart of Hero are at the heart of a great deal of Eastern fiction, and have been for hundreds of years - surely this movie doesn't deserve to be singled out because of it, but discussed in that context (ie: nothing new in that department).
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
08:15 / 27.09.04
Cameron - I was thinking about that while I watched the movie, and I thought there was something else going on as well. The King's dream of unity takes a bit of a pounding. I can't help but see a criticism of the violence riding on the acknowledgement that 'the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few' (which is in Star Trek, of course). Broken Sword (interesting name - and what are we to think of a warrior who choses to fight with an imperfect weapon?) has a dream of peace, and he as good as tells everyone that violence solves nothing. I also saw a Tiannamen thing in the calligraphy school: you may kill the calligraphers, but you will not stop them writing.

So I think maybe it's less bad than you think.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:39 / 27.09.04
I almost feel guilty for rushing in to discuss the film's content, subtexts etc when there is so much that could also be said about the form - but maybe the stuff about the form is either obvious or hard to articulate or both. In terms of use of colour, Hero is almost unsurpassed (let no-one ever question again that red is the universal colour of sex). The way that the narrative is structured is both clever and graceful, and there's some nice stuff going on there about fictionality that avoids falling into the cliches most people on Barbelith will be overfamiliar with by now. Fantastic casting and cast (finally someone's figured out how to make Jet Li's blankness into a virtue), far too many memorable moments to mention (but I#ll break that rule for Nameless catching the cup of water on his sword, soooo good).

But it's the political content of the film that sticks with you - partly because the godlike Tony Leung puts in such an amazing performance as Broken Sword that you leave the cinema basically thinking about one individual's political/moral philosophy, and whether you agree with it. So I'll dive right in...

SPOILERS all over the place from here on in, obviously.

The big troubling unwieldy problem at the heart of this movie is that two different ideologies (broadly speaking, pacifism and nationalism) are fused together into one philosophy which is espoused by Broken Sword.

It's very tempting to focus only on the first half, the pacifism. At various points the decision(s) not to go through with the assassination is presented as the result of growing sick and tired of violence: the ultimate aim of the warrior being to lay down his sword (as revealed in Broken Sword's 20th variation of the word 'sword'), Snow coming from a land that has no swords, etc. Obviously that is *part* of it, and there are several points during the film in which we're given incredibly inspiring images that validate pacifism or non-violence: it's hard to feel that Nameless does the wrong thing when he turns the King's sword away right at the moment he does it (even if we might come to disagree later when we think about the consequences), partly because it's a very strong image of mercy and compassion. Celibate Mink has already mentioned the calligraphy students going back to their work as the arrows fall, and there's also the fact the repeated instances of people deliberately losing fights, allowing themselves to be stabbed, culminating in Broken Sword's death - which is a kind of extreme non-violence because he doesn't even block Snow's attack, doesn't even defend himself, let alone strike back. Then finally, there's Nameless standing calmly as several hundred arrows are fired at him. Message: the non-violent idealist will always lose (and die) in the short term, because hir opponents will never show the same kind of mercy (and Nameless knows this, describing himself to the King as a dead man as soon as Nameless decides not to kill him). But in the long term the ideal for which they died may come to pass, so sacrifice is a wondeful thing, yada yada yada.

BUT.

Renouncing violence may be a part of Broken Sword's deal, but it's not the main reason why he decides not to kill the King. We know this because when Nameless really pushes him - look, come on, tell me why the King musn't die - Sword tells him two words: "Our Land." Peace is what he's after, but less important than the personal peace that comes from not being an assassin anymore is the peace that comes from China being 'unified' - ie, conquered. Because this view is being put forward by Tony Leung, it's very seductive - but I'd argue the argument is rigged slightly by having Flying Snow and (initially) Nameless oppose his vision of 'Our Land' in a manner that's very territorial and literally provincial - they want revenge of Qin in the name of their own province... Thus the film presents 'Our Land' as the big picture, which only the King, Broken Sword and Nameless (in that order) are capable of seeing.

But the big picture is only as big as China's borders. After Sword dies, and just before she kills herself, Flying Snow says: "No more struggle - now I will take you home, to a land without borders." The big question for me is, how conscious is the film of the tension between that ideal and the final shot of the huge Great freaking Wall of China, built by Qin to protect 'Our Land' from everybody else? I'd love to believe that the contrast is deliberate, but I think it's equally possible that we're being invited to think of the "land without borders" that Snow & Sword go to when they die as being equivalent to the united China without internal borders that is eventually established.

(There's a few other moments where I can't work out whether the film is disrupting its own dominant message - like when the King shocks Nameless by saying he might not stop with just uniting China, which might be a reference to China's own recent imperialist expansion - eg, Tibet. Oh, and I have no idea how much we're meant to sympathise with the King when he says something like "only Broken Sword understood me, everyone else just criticises" - it seems awfully close to that whole "don't question the President during wartime" thing, but equally the way it's delivered there could be some undercutting...)

I agree with Cameron's analysis of the film's message, but have to disagree with the idea that "we" as Western viewers have any distance from it. The idea of "Our Land", the unified nation state in which internal differences are either put aside or suppressed so that external threats can be overcome, is sadly almost ubiquitous in the West, and one might even go so far as to ask whether or not Hero's success in the USA is a reflection of how attractive that idea is to many Americans today...
 
 
Michelle Gale
15:47 / 27.09.04
I think the nationalistic stuff was put in to please the Chinese censors, it wouldn't have got distrobuted if it didn't show the CCCP in a good light,Zhang Yimou has had alot of trouble in the past getting his films past the censors, and often has had to re-cut/add new scenes to his movies so they can get released, so perhaps he decided to pre-empt the authorities . He has also been hevily critisised in China for being so popular in the west so Hero may be an attempt to gain favor with the chinese critics, and audiences as there was quite alot of hostility toward him.If this film was another big hit in the west and it had no pro CCP message things probably would have gotten worse.

I agree that calligraphy/memory theme kind of acted as a counterpoint to the CCCP undertones though.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
16:01 / 27.09.04
Zhang Yimou makes very politically complicated films. They tend to be about a whole host of things and you can read them through the use of colour and gender. I didn't like this as much as Raise the Red Lantern (which I've seen about five times though not in a while) but I did find that having seen the earlier movie was a very useful tool when I watched this film. Zhang Yimou is so intent in detail that I think it would be foolish to ignore those little points at the end. I certainly read that shot of the Great Wall as deliberate.

For me the women in Hero provide the emotional voice for while these men are constructing a (limited) view of peace the women are railing against them. This makes Snow's last comment particularly striking and especially wrt Yimou's other movies. The fact that she first appears in red and as a character so extremely violent mustn't be ignored but that she becomes slowly a character who disagrees with the male assassins should also not be discounted. Moon too is an emotional voice, carrying out her master's bidding but still pitted against them all. I think it's easy to read the film as favourable towards the Emperor but then I think it's easy to subscribe to the viewpoint of the most powerful figures in a film.
 
 
akira
23:30 / 27.09.04
***SPOILER***

When Broken Sword lowers his guard so Flying Snow could kill him, I thought of the Obi-Wan Darth Vader scene, "If you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine". Did anyone else get that? Or can you not possibly imagine?
 
 
unheimlich manoeuvre
02:37 / 28.09.04
i thought that red was the colour of celebration in China, as wedding dresses and presents are.

**Spoilers**

with regards to the social/political message of the film, i must recognise that it is impossible to take a neutral attitude to it. china's form of nationalist authoritarian socialism does put forward the greater good as the ideal. individualism is seen as selfish and unpatriotic, i find that questionable. i've tried to see the deaths of broken sword, snow and nameless as giving the king the resolve to "drop the sword" after the (re-)unification of china.
 
 
Seth
06:04 / 28.09.04
Consider the uniform grey of the army and the cutting down of the green banners in the great hall, as well as the overriding sadness as each assassin dies. Yimou seems well aware that something beautiful is being buried China's foundations.
 
 
Michelle Gale
12:30 / 28.09.04
For me the women in Hero provide the emotional voice for while these men are constructing a (limited) view of peace the women are railing against them.

But wasn't the female's view of peace in the film equally limited? It didn't really go past "emotional" selfish reaction, rather than rational selfless progressivenes on the part of the males, I thought it stuck very closely to tradtional gender roles.

Its also a bit dodgy how Zhang Yimou dunped his wife/muse for the younger skinnier Michelle Yeoh.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:43 / 28.09.04
The more I think about it, the more this film reminds me of certain productions/readings of Shakespeare plays - sounds strange, I know, but I'm thinking of certain interpretations that have been applied to Taming Of The Shrew or Twelfth Night (feminist and queer readings in that order). Basically, you have a structure where at the end of the story, we are told in a didactic fashion that the way things have worked out is for the best, and that there is a moral to be gained from that. But something is off about the tone that is struck, and there are clues presented that can be used to form an interpretation that says the opposite to the 'official' message.

Anyway, that's a little rambling of me, you should go here to read a really good discussion of the movie between Oliver Chang and Jeff Wang, in which they argue about some of the points raised so far in this thread.
 
 
Jack Fear
16:17 / 28.09.04
Hurrah for the Death of the Author! Now we can enjoy politically-dubious entertainments with a clear conscience, because everything means only what we say it means!

See, I loved HERO; but I hated myself for loving it.

But now, thanks to the Death of the Author, I can love HERO unreservedly, and guilt-free.

Thank God for post-modernism, the salve of the intellectual conscience.
 
 
John Brown
17:39 / 28.09.04
Given the already mentioned difficulty that Yimou has had with government censors in the past, it's possible that his political statement (if any) might be found in the censors' quick approval of a film that can so easily be interpreted as an apologia for the creation and maintenance of monarchical rule over a unified China.

I was more interested, however, in the way that, like China itself, the film combined Confucian, Taoist, and Buddhist ideas.

And the fights were enjoyable, as long as they stayed on the ground. The flying bits were too long and sort of wasted the casts' skills.

I just hope that Miramax will have the sense to get around to release the director's version on DVD.

[A question: I originally watched Hero on my computer when it wasn't clear when or whether Miramax would actually bring it to the US. In the version that I saw, I recall that the translation of Broken Sword's final message was "Under Heaven," not "Our Land." Can someone who saw the Asian release let me know whether I just made that up?]
 
 
Aertho
19:32 / 28.09.04
My translation was "All Under Heaven"... I think that's much more beautiful than "Our land".
 
 
ibis the being
00:46 / 29.09.04
Thanks for your posts about Hero, Cameron. I had the opposite impression from the film when I saw it - that Nameless's choice not to kill the king was an act he hoped might plant a seed of mercy or pacifism in the king. That the king's pregnant pause reflected an emotional inclination to choose pacifism, but that his lust for power superceded it. That what Broken Sword meant by "Our Land" was not that the king must be allowed to unite the land (through war), but that the decision to stop killing/avenging had to start with one person. Maybe this was just me imposing my personal or Western outlook on the film, your points are well made - but then again, I thought (going into the movie) that Yimou was a filmmaker who aimed to challenge Chinese traditions and cultural practices, rather than reinforce them.

the fight scene in the forest was great but would have been better if the scene was filmed in a cherry orchard and the wind was casting the blossoms to the ground instead of the autumn leaves falling.

I disagree, mainly because I thought the film was playing on the classic "elements" archetype, with this scene of burning yellow leaves representing fire. But also, isn't the cascading cherry blossom scene rather cliched?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:23 / 29.09.04
Hurrah for the Death of the Author! blah blah yada yada

Jack, while it's always nice to know which new-fangled airy fairy movement in literary criticism is pissing you off this week, as far as I'm aware nobody else has mentioned the idea of the "Death of the Author". Did you want to engage at all with the discussion of the film Hero currently taking place in this thread, or not?
 
 
Jack Fear
14:38 / 29.09.04
Sure. I was making an attempt (however clumsy) to tie our varying experiences of the film with your comparison to ideologically-rejiggered productions of Shakespeare. I don't see it as a valid analogy, frankly, because films are not plays—they are their own stagings, their own interpretations. Not that hidden meanings cannot be teased from them, but they are simply not the infinitely-interpretable source-texts that, say, the plays of Shakespeare are.

Hero is not a reading of a text—it is the text. Any reinterpretation of it will have to take place outside of that text; someone may remake the film, or turn it into a Broadway show, or disassemble its frames as a fumetti-comic—but these things are artworks distinct from the film itself, whereas (I would argue) any production of The Taming Of The Shrew, whatever its ideological bent, whatever the quality or tone applied to the reading, remains inescapably The Taming Of The Shrew.

You say that "there are clues presented that can be used to form an interpretation that says the opposite to the 'official' message." But to cite a favorite quote of mine, any good work of art comes close to saying the opposite of what it really says; I think our basic disagreement lies in which meaning is the "real" one. When we deal with a film like Hero I would argue that authorial intention (which is pretty much a non-issue when dealing with Shakespeare) is in fact of primary importance, for the reasons I've outlined above; and that when figuring out the "real" meaning of a work of art, it's very easy to succumb to wishful thinking (we desperately want Zhang Yimou to have slipped one by the censors; we desperately want Hero to be an anti-authoritarian, pro-individualist film); but if we wish to be fair to the film and its makers—that is, if we wish to engage with the film on its own terms—we've got to listen to what the filmmaker is saying, and not to what we wish he was saying.

Things are often what they seem. Yimou plays fair with the characters and with the audience, but in the end the film is open and upfront about its message. This isn't Starship Troopers—there's no satirical edge in the glorification of the State.

The Arab violinist Simon Shaheen once played a concert of traditional microtonal North African music. After the show, a scholar of Western classical music said to him, "Your tone is beautiful—but why did you play so many wrong notes?"

The "off-notes" that you detect in Hero, the ones pointing the way towards your interpretation of it as an anti-authoritarian piece—how much of that comes from the film, and how much from you? How much is internal dissonance, and how much is cognitive dissonance?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:05 / 29.09.04
But to cite a favorite quote of mine, any good work of art comes close to saying the opposite of what it really says; I think our basic disagreement lies in which meaning is the "real" one.

I had that line in mind when I was writing the stuff about Shakespeare, clues etc - but please note that I haven't necessarily changed my conclusion as to which 'interpretation' is the stronger. Equally, I'm aware that for the analogy to work, text = film and staging = interpretation. I'm still leaning towards "great aesthetics, shit politics" myself. Still, if the author isn't dead, ze is also not usually there to tell us who is right and who is wrong in these cases...

Has anyone read any interviews with Zhang Yimou on the subject of the film and its 'message', out of interest? That might be of relevance...
 
  

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