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China: just having a smoke before stepping up to the plate?

 
  

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captain piss
16:40 / 18.04.03
Err...that's the impression I've gotten from reading a couple of things lately, notably the essay "Will this be the Chinese Century?" in the Disinformation book 'Everything you know is wrong'(sorry in advance if I really don't have a fucking clue what I'm talking about). China has the hi-tech weapons capability to completely neutralise the US as a military force, it says, including a single missile that could take out all 12 of the US's aircraft carriers, delivering roughly six times the firepower of the Hiroshima bomb.
This was all news to me- and I can't recall China being a discernible talking-point on news programmes and in the media of late, amidst the more central 'US vs the Islamic world' drama and ruminations about where things will go from here.
China already has the military capability to conquer all, says this essay, but that's not the Chinese way, referring to the way it prefers to patiently advance on its prey, as with the absorption of Hong Kong in 97 and Macau in 99. But there are many signs that it is positioning itself as the next global hegemon, including its drive to recruit support amongst nations in South America, the Middle East and Asia, with its vision of a new peace, presided over by no-one, it insists.

The article also cites economic facts and figures about China's growing strength- it's the 2nd largest economy in the world, according to some analysts, and appears to be catching up fast with the US.

It's quite an interesting essay- this may well be old hat to many of you- but I just thought I'd enquire- is it all as simple as this sounds? Is China's future position of dominance fairly hard to dispute? Is anyone worried about that?
 
 
Hieronymus
17:20 / 18.04.03
China's still kicking out a few bugs concerning where it sits in the global community.

Personally, I believe China will grow to become a robust economic powerhouse that rival the US at some point in the future. But it's going to go through a rough adolescence until then.
 
 
grant
17:21 / 18.04.03
Well, I'm doing my part to spread Chinese cultural hegemony...

I don't think China is ready to be a global superpower the way you're describing because I don't think they've got the financial resources for an empire. They probably have the military might, and they've got an enormous population, but don't have the resources (or distribution systems) to keep that whole population healthy, well-fed & well-educated. Which is why they're becoming more of a free market economy even outside the "special region" of Hong Kong.

BTW, the Hong Kong and Macau "takeovers" were really just "takebacks" based on contracts written with colonial powers a hundred years ago. If you really wanted to see something sneaky happening, it'd probably happen with Taiwan, Japan, India or Korea. I have no idea what Chinese influence in North Korea is, but it's evidently not like Finland was to the USSR, and it's pretty clear that Japan and Taiwan are not too cowed by the presence of China either.
 
 
Linus Dunce
13:59 / 19.04.03
They probably have the military might, and they've got an enormous population, but don't have the resources (or distribution systems) to keep that whole population healthy, well-fed & well-educated.

That never stopped the Soviet Union :-)

Japan ain't worried because the US won't leave them out for the wolves as long as they behave themselves. It is economically important. Not sure that Taiwan feels particularly relaxed because, despite the noise whenever China launches a missile in their direction, they don't have the same support -- the US have recognised that it is part of China.

Which brings us to why, as long as things don't go pear-shaped, China won't adopt a super-power role. China wants to trade. The US wants the trade, it has for a long time, and will go the extra half-mile and turn the blinder eye to keep things calm.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
17:37 / 19.04.03
...but the US will probably carry on "accidentally" blowing up Chinese stuff. Embassies, planes... just so's they don't forget.
 
 
Jack Rock-a-Pops
05:14 / 21.04.03
China's a fucking interesting one. I don't think Taiwan would have the role to play that some think it might, after SA pulled diplomacy I think it's just a few rogue African nations that still recognise its legitimacy.

Someone told me China has a standing infantry of a couple million and I don't doubt that. I heard the word now is that they're realising the stupid Maoist "more people = betterer" philosophy is just plain naive and trimming their army right down, aiming for technological enhancement instead.

Another msg board I read is quite convinced that this sARSE epidemic is a covert attack to kick down the Asians while things turn nastier. Also and interesting theory.

Where's this disinfo archive mentioned? Is that on the site?
 
 
unheimlich manoeuvre
07:32 / 15.04.05
China is becoming dominant in Asia.

guardian April 14, 2005
...Japanese Foreign Minister Nobutaka Machimura urged Chinese leaders to denounce the protests - a message that he said he would convey when he visits Beijing next week. He also said Tokyo is considering posting its own military personnel abroad to protect its embassies.

``The protesters' acts of destruction are unforgivable, whatever the reasons may be,'' Machimura said before a committee of Japan's Parliament. If Chinese officials fail to act, he said, ``the government is acknowledging its support for the demonstrations.''

...

China hasn't responded to Japan's demands for compensation and an official apology, and suggested it might try to block Japan's bid for a Security Council seat.

China, South Korea and other Asian nations accuse Japan of failing to apologize adequately for its conquests of the 1930s and 1940s. China says as many as 30 million of its people died in the war.

The tensions reflect China's unease at Japan's new political and military ambitions and competition for energy sources. Beijing regards Tokyo as a rival for status as the region's dominant power.


//

Add to that normalisation of relations between India and China.

bbc news 12 April, 2005
Wen Jiabao was speaking a day after India and China signed an agreement aimed at resolving a long-running dispute over their Himalayan border.
Both countries also set a target of increasing their annual trade to $30bn by 2010.
The world's two most populous countries fought a bitter war over their largely unmarked border in 1962.
"India, China are brothers," Wen Jiabao told journalists in Delhi on Tuesday.
"We want to elevate the strategic relationship."


//

Does that mean India has officially recognised that Tibet is part of China?
And there's also the recent Taiwanese protests against China's new anti-succession law.
 
 
Not in the Face
13:41 / 15.04.05
On the 'naah, don't think so' argument, my personal view is that is unlikely. The US power is based in no small part on the back of its huge wealth as related to the size of its population. China by comparison has much less wealth and much larger population. It also has much less room to manouever in terms of how much damange it can do to its environment as it builds the infrastructure to sustain the kind of global hegemony that the US does.

However I suppose its all a matter of comparison and hindsight. 100 years ago no one expected the British Empire to end anytime soon and certainly not the US to take over, but many of the signs were there. However while the US empire is in many ways more powerful than the British empire its dominance is exerted in different ways. The British Empire ruled vast areas of the globe, while the US uses influence and proxy organisations (companies, alliances etc). Perhaps if the US does decline in power, it will give the Chinese room to develop an alternate way of dominating?
 
 
grant
16:02 / 15.04.05
Does that mean India has officially recognised that Tibet is part of China?


Well, the US does. Is "Tibet" on official maps in England?

And Japan has a *lot* to answer for as far as WWII in China goes... and instead, they're just writing the whole thing out of their history textbooks.

Quoting something I wrote elsewhere, summarizing the deal:

In 1937, Japanese planes started bombing densely populated cities, and the advancing Japanese army became notorious for setting fires and killing civilians. Once they occupied Nanjing, the Japanese soldiers made a sport of forcing Chinese women to, well, do things. Anything. And they took pictures of them doing it. Made for a nice stash of evidence at the war's end, but for two months, looting, rape and impromptu amateur porn in the streets was commonplace.

The public atrocities got so bad, a German businessman (and Nazi Party member) in Nanjing, John Rabe, decided to do something about it. Every time he witnessed an assault in progress, he'd strap on his swastika armband, march out to the Japanese soldiers and demand they stop. And they did. He did it again and again and again, like some kind of Nazi superhero, defending the virtue of the women of Nanjing.

Today, there's a statue of Rabe in the city center.

Anyway, by the end of the two months, between 100,000 and 300,000 of Nanjing's civilians had been killed, often horrifically, and as many as 80,000 women had been raped.


There are people around who still remember that stuff.

If you read that wikipedia article (the second link above), you'll find that censorship on the subject has gone back as far as the massacre itself, and continued on both sides. (Mao thought not mentioning this stuff while "normalizing relations" with Japan would be a good idea, and what Mao thought, went.)

So, like most repressed stuff, this thing has festered and grown in intensity. And is ongoing.

From the last paragraph of wikipedia:
In October 2004, the Japanese manga comic book "Kuni ga Moeru," or "The Country is Burning" by Hiroshi Motomiya was suspended from the manga anthology Weekly Young Jump because it "depicted the Nanjing Atrocities as 'real.'" Certain Japanese politicians and civilians wanted the manga censored or removed because they claimed that the incident never occurred and there was no proof of it.

So, in summary, don't go looking for any Sino-Japanese declarations of unity and brotherhood. Any partnership between the two will be pretty darn fraught.
 
 
Joetheneophyte
15:27 / 17.04.05
I have always thought of China as more isolationist than expansionist. over the last few decades, they have utilised their strengths in a more global way (ie virtually limitless cheap labour) and as a result their economy has grown massively as the greedy west and Globalisation has moved manufacturing jobs to the Asian economies

At the same time China has been bolstering and brokering deals with anybody who will sell them weapons. Allegedly Israel and Russia have been passing on US and other weapons systems to the Chinese authorities. I think China is reacting more than being pro-active (though this might be me not being clever or tactically minded enough to see their hidden motives)

So China, which traditionally has been quite insular, fearing the advent and takeover of Globalisation and Westernised culture, has utilised their 'enemies' strengths and motivation (Greed and exploitation) and used this increase in revenue to drag it up from third world status to bordering on a superpower

They have the political and military might to co-erce the Russians into sharing their technological achievements with them and they have the cheap labour that is draining the European and US manufacturing infrastructure

clever bastards really. The interesting thing will be to see whether they play their master card at some future date and decide to devalue the US economy which some believe is already living on borrowed time
(again I am not clever enough to know whether this is true but all these wars and conflicts and an overstretched military presence all over the world cannot be cheap)
 
 
unheimlich manoeuvre
01:21 / 23.04.05
FT Apr 22 2005

"President George W. Bush led an international chorus for action, while political pressure is building for the US Treasury to name China as a currency manipulator.

...

Mr Greenspan said that, “sooner rather than later”, China will have to act for stability purposes. “It’s very much in their interest to move,” he added.

...

“The probability of a long-anticipated adjustment of China’s current exchange rate vis-à-vis the US dollar appears higher in the next few months than at any time in the past few years,” said Marvin Barth, global currency economist at Citigroup.

“China faces a choice between rising inflation and increasing mis-allocation of capital or allowing the nominal exchange rate to strengthen.”

China has previously said it would not buckle under external pressure on this issue, but JP Morgan speculated that Beijing’s absence from last weekend’s G7 meeting could “reflect an intention by officials to avoid the impression that the regime change was a result of external pressures”.

...

Junichiro Koizumi, the Japanese prime minister, apologised for his country’s actions before and during the second world war, reducing Sino-Japanese tensions and aiding the yen."


Seems like China is being blackmailed into taking on more USA debt.

(grant - only seen one map so far and Tibet is shown as part of China.)
 
 
grant
19:52 / 25.04.05
Yeah, I think China's disputed border with India is actually with Tibet. I know the issue comes up with Mt. Everest expeditions.

Pedantic quibble -- upthread someone said: used this increase in revenue to drag it up from third world status

China wasn't Third World, it was Second World. That is, it was the Communist bloc. It did have some major problems with poverty (big, big famine right before the Cultural Revolution), but not in exactly the same way as someplace like Vietnam or Ghana. China's got a pretty decent infrastructure, especially in the non-physical sense (well-established bureaucracy & social systems).

I want to know what's going to happen next with their space program, actually -- there seems to be a lot of symbolism tied up in that.

And the whole Japan demonstration business seems like it might be a sideways approach to seizing all them contested islands China claims as its own -- including Taiwan.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
14:55 / 11.05.05
China's purchasing power parity will surpass the U.S. in 2025 or so and its GDP will be the largest around 2045. It is unquestionable that China will be the next great power to rival the United States but I'm not convinced that it will become a hegemon similar to what the U.S. is now.
 
 
Professor Silly
20:35 / 13.05.05
So how does China's upcoming generational gender inbalance factor into all of this. They have a whole generation with a lot more men than women growing up--millions of men that will never find a mate within their country.

Does anyone think this might lead to a reversal of their isolationist ways, and might this express itself as an opening up to allow men to leave and women to enter...or as a possible "expendible" military invasion force?
 
 
grant
17:50 / 16.05.05
This is completely anecdotal.

I was reading a note from Brian Stuys, the adoptive (white) father of a girl from China who does a lot of traveling in China, and he was talking about how he runs into ordinary people who want to talk to him about his (obviously adopted) daughter. Many of them, it turns out, have "adopted" daughters of their own. They're almost never official adoptions, which are expensive and (until very recently and only in some areas) still count against your "One child if boy, Two child if first is a girl" government mandated total. They're just people who find abandoned girls -- some of them are related, but many are not -- and take them in to raise them.

This means there's a generation of young girls growing up in China with no paperwork -- no official IDs, not able to draw the benefits of the communist system (like the free healthcare and that), but, you know, still around. There's really no way to get any kind of an accurate count of these girls (some of whom, by now, are already young women), so for now the best evidence we've got is anecdotal.

But the whole gender imbalance thing *might* be less severe than is widely supposed. I mean, on a population level. Being a non-citizen living in China would be pretty damn severe on a personal level (thus, you know, things like the wife market).
 
 
astrojax69
01:00 / 17.05.05
there is an issue this thread raises that parallels, a little, one legba's thread here raised - why do we assume that a dominant superpower will be imperialist or even just bloody minded and arrogant?

i suspect china will blossom after 2008's olympics and use the kudos this brings to establish powerful trade links with whoever the fuck it wants to - europe, sth america, the middle east, africa and of course asia's tigers - and probably at the expense of the usa, who will find itself teetering on the brink of obscurity from that point, until it fades away, its last wimpers globally unheeded... by say 2075 it will be ancient history.

the broader spread of economic interest will bring more tolerance for cultures, the world is already getting much smaller, and we shall have to learn to get along somehow, sometime. mebbe china can be the catalyst for this - for all their size, they have never really been interested in warring, expansionist policies [i know someone will want to mention tibet here?] i mean, where were they in the great and second world wars?

might all be a sweet dream but that's my broad tip. come back and tell me how it went in seventy years. i'll be here.
 
 
Not in the Face
09:03 / 17.05.05
why do we assume that a dominant superpower will be imperialist or even just bloody minded and arrogant?

Because a dominant superpower is unlikely to have become so without being imperialist and bloody minded?

mebbe china can be the catalyst for this - for all their size, they have never really been interested in warring, expansionist policies

Sorry but that shows you are seeing Chinese history as one monolithic thing and all Chinese as the same. The history of the region is one of various warring racial groups trying to knock each other off the top spot and then as often as not invading their neighbours - much like Europe really.

i mean, where were they in the great and second world wars? In both wars China was divided up amongst other powers - it didn't exist as a political entity. The Qing dynasty officially ended in c.1911 and until 1949 there was no central government.

Furthermore the One China policy is central to the government's own mandate, reclaiming all the land that has 'historically' belonged to China. In fact a lot of modern China has been independent of central rule more than it has been ruled (south-west China in particular). Now with population pressure and a highly politicised view of their own history I think expansionism is sadly going to be a reality in the next 20 years.
 
 
grant
15:47 / 17.05.05
Yeah, take a good look at a map of:

Japan, Vietnam, North Korea, the Philippines, Kazakhstan, India, Pakistan, and Russia...

...and tell me what all the dotted portions of their borders have in common. (In the cases of Japan, Korea and the Philippines, it'll actually be a couple islands, probably drawn with diagonal shadows over them.)

Then look into what Myanmar and Thailand have to say about water rights and the construction of dams on rivers leading into their countries. (Actually, that's all neatly summarized here.)

And then check out the paper version of the CIA Factbook -- their entry on Taiwan isn't in the T's. It's at the end of the book... because Taiwan's existence as a sovereign nation is subject to some dispute.

China isn't currently waging any wars to get the land they claim is theirs, but they're not exactly non-expansionist, either.

-----

If you're interested in one man's highly subjective take on 20th century Chinese History, start reading here and follow the links forward to "Chinese Republic" and on. To a certain degree, World War I started in China before the Archduke ever decided to go to Sarajevo.
 
 
astrojax69
03:46 / 18.05.05
all right, points taken.

but i still think it is possible to be a world super power through trade and mutual interest and not be imperialist and bloody minded - from now...

anyway, i rarely post in this forum; as you see, politics isn't a strong suit. but i feel china will be dominant and i hope for the best. (their food is fantastic - much better there than the version we get here. don't much like their music though - will this be telling?)
 
 
Mirror
21:47 / 19.05.05
I wonder how language differences will affect Chinese hegemony.

Right now, English is certainly the primary international language and there doesn't seem to be any real challenge to that state of affairs, particulary given that English is really the language of the Internet as well.

Can the fact that Chinese doesn't use a phonetic alphabet, and is a tonal language (and thus more difficult for foreigners to achieve fluency in) be a limiting factor for Chinese economic growth within the global community?
 
 
lord henry strikes back
22:03 / 19.05.05
Interestingly I was having a similar conversation with a linguist (I work for a company that makes foreign language subtitles, so I meet a lot of them) just the other day. I was asking how hard it was for people from Asia to learn Englich given that the languages have no common base. I was told by this individual from China that while, yes, it is harder for someone from Asia to learn English than, say, it would be for someone from France or Germany, there is an understanding that knowledge of a European language is essential. Furthermore, given that the main contact that those in China have with the rest of the world is through the internet, and, as has already been pointed out, English is the main language of the internet, English is by far the language of choice. As and when China reaches the top of the pile, many of them will speak better English than many of us.
 
 
grant
22:54 / 19.05.05
Anecdotal: When I was in Chongqing, there were people there who pretty obviously had never seen a white guy before -- crowds would stop and stare every time I needed to stop walking and orient myself (ha! so to speak).

There was always *somebody* there who knew a couple words of English, and wasn't afraid to start talking.

In Guangzhou, nobody even stared, and most of the street signs were in Chinese characters, pinyin (which everyone knows, just about), and English. At one point, that city was in England's "sphere of influence," see. (That term was coined to describe Europe's relations with various bits of China in the late 1800s -- the brewery that makes Tsingtao beer was from the German sphere of influence.) Guanzhou's also right across from Hong Kong, which was part of the British Empire - which is why Jackie Chan speaks English.
 
 
grant
22:58 / 19.05.05
Oh, and although it still doesn't jibe well with computers, I'm under the impression that anyone who can read written Chinese characters can puzzle out Korean & Japanese kanji. The words are pronounced differently, but the meanings are the same. It'd be like me writing a letter to Hungary and the Hungarian being able to read it, without either of us knowing each other's (spoken) languages.
 
 
grant
14:08 / 24.05.05
The latest move in the Sino-Japanese propaganda war involves a rather too-attractive 11-year-old model.

She wants peace, or else she'll just stop liking them Chinese.
 
 
alejandrodelloco
22:57 / 26.05.05
Wow... That is just so weird it deserves its own thread... Do you think they put RGBH in Japanese milk or something? I mean, damn...

In other news, The Atlantic has put out an interesting story on How We Would Fight China. An interesting read.
 
 
grant
17:36 / 27.05.05
There was also just this on NPR this morning about the modernization of China's army.

Israel's been making Uncle Sam cross by selling top notch gear to the People's Army. No, no, Israel!
 
 
alejandrodelloco
18:30 / 28.05.05
Hmmm. What should one invest in when preparing for the next Cold War?
 
 
unheimlich manoeuvre
12:40 / 04.07.05
When the oil wars blow.
Will Hutton. July 3, 2005 The Observer

"...CNOOC, has launched a £10 billion bid for one of the US's juiciest medium-sized oil companies, Unocal.

...

Assuming the improbable rhetoric of a Wall Street investment banker, the chairman of CNOOC, 71 per cent owned by the communist People's Republic of China, says that the bid will be good for shareholders on both sides of the Pacific.

It certainly offers Unocal shareholders more cash than rival American oil company Chevron was offering, but only because the Chinese government has lent CNOOC a $2.5bn interest-free loan to support the loan and subsidised billions more. This is hardly fair play but Unocal shareholders aren't complaining."


This would be the biggest takeover of an American company by a Chinese one. Other links suggest that Unocal may be split up between the two suitors.
 
 
eye landed
21:17 / 05.07.05
russia and china together...have twice the cojones. how long until chinas huge modern industrial complex gets access to russias cold war research secrets?
 
 
grant
03:22 / 06.07.05
Holy crap -- not only have they settled their (very long-standing) border dispute, but they're taking joint military maneuvers and...
The two sides also signed economic agreements Friday, including one between the Russian oil company Rosneft and China National Petroleum Corp. that paves the way for increased Russian oil exports to China. Rosneft announced in a news release that the firms would begin discussing cooperation in exploring and developing oil and gas fields on Sakhalin Island, off Russia's east coast.

There's a lot of oil in that area. And the Guardian sees a link between the "US out of world affairs" rhetoric and China's desire for oil from Afghanistan via the former Soviet Union. That seems like a weird connection (what with the big war and the Soviet failure to annex Afghanistan and all), but history is built on weird connections.

So this is what happens when China starts getting hungry for fuel....
 
 
Sjaak at the Shoe Shop
13:42 / 06.07.05
I can add that recently an oil trade agreement was signed between China and Canada (where China takes about one third of the supply that the US had their eyes on), plus they are major shareholders in countries like Venezuela and Iran. Finally, CNPC are about 40% shareholder (with Malaysia and India) in all oil developments in Sudan, a country which is embargoed by all others.
(who says politics and oil are not linked..)

On the other hand, they are hungry for fuel, most 'accepted' oil regions are in the hands of the Majors, that are based on the west. So it is also just looking for opportunities.

I don't think China will be such a superpower soon, it will take a huge effort to bring this enormous population to a higher level. While the cities are booming rural areas are still poor and underdeveloped. Difficult and time consuming, and possibly in 10 to 15 yr the general level may be similar to say present day Turkey. I would think this to be the primary political objective. Global power will follow automatically though.
 
 
grant
16:40 / 12.10.05
They're winning the space race after taking a significantly delayed lead.

Two taikonauts in orbit, testing a new space capsule.

The Shenzhou VI spacecraft blasted off on a Long March 2F rocket from the Jiuquan Satellite Launch Centre in northwest China at 0900 local time (0100 GMT) and entered orbit 21 minutes later.

On board were two former fighter pilots, Fei Junlong and Nie Haisheng, whose names were released shortly before liftoff. Both had been candidates for China's first crewed spaceflight in the Shenzhou V in October 2003. Ultimately, Yang Liwei was chosen to pilot that mission, in which China became the third country after the US and the former Soviet Union to send a human into space.

The Shenzhou VI flight is scheduled for nearly five days - significantly longer than Yang's 21-hour trip. During the mission, the astronauts will leave the re-entry capsule they launched in and take up residence in the 9 cubic metre orbital module at the front of the spacecraft, where they will shed their bulky space suits.


That first half of the first sentence is totally cyberpunk. The idea of "Long March" rocket is so... communist Chinese!

In the global politics arena:

Indeed, Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao told the astronauts before the flight: "You will once again show that the Chinese people have the will, confidence and capability to mount scientific peaks ceaselessly."

China spends about $2 billion on its human spaceflight programme. It says it is likely to launch its first woman taikonaut in five years and ultimately plans to build its own space station.

That ambition will have ripple effects in other countries, says Cheng. "I think you're already seeing a space race in Asia," he says, citing plans by India and Japan to send orbiting spacecraft to study the Moon. But he adds that it could also lead to greater cooperation between Asian nations. Malaysia plans to send astronauts into space and may consider collaborating with China to do so, he says.
 
 
Slim
00:38 / 13.10.05
China has repeatedly stated that it does not wish to be a global hegemon and rebukes the U.S. for being one.

The Chinese government is planning to raise the per capita GDP to that of a mid-range power by 2050. This means that they probably won't be the dominant global force this century (if ever). They have a lot of hurdles to overcome- massive pollution, a huge and ever-increasing population coinciding with the depletion of vital resources, the inevitable chaos that comes with a changing political/economic system, etc. If China can make it through intact then it will be quite powerful.

Question- My knowledge of Chinese history is pretty limited. Has China shown a lot of expansionist tendencies in the past? It has always struck me as a country that seems content to stay put and take care of itself, although this might be due to ignorance on my part. America's position as hegemon didn't occur just because it wanted to secure resources; it came because America has had a vision of the world and an intense desire to spread this vision across the globe. Is China the type of country that wishes to do the same?
 
 
unheimlich manoeuvre
00:50 / 13.10.05
That is a great leap forward. Even so there are the third into space, I wonder if they'd push to be first at something. The first human mission to Mars?
 
 
grant
16:58 / 13.10.05
My knowledge of Chinese history is pretty limited. Has China shown a lot of expansionist tendencies in the past? It has always struck me as a country that seems content to stay put and take care of itself, although this might be due to ignorance on my part.

Not rrreally, unless you count the (relatively recent) invasion of Tibet, which may or may not have been a thoroughly independent nation throughout history, depending on who you ask. They definitely paid tribute to the Chinese emperors.

China was traditionally very big on establishing trade colonies in foreign ports -- they had one or more in India, Persia, Russia. Singapore was one, too. And some folks believe they made it as far as North and South America on a couple of jaunts.

The idea of expansionism gets complicated by ethnicity & history.

Does the Yuan Dynasty count as Chinese? That's better known to you and me as the Mongolian Khans, who ruled an empire from Irkustk to Afghanistan, and had remnants in the Crimea until the 1700s.

And there's the thing in the Ming Dynasty where lightning struck the Forbidden City and the mandarins decided, whoa, dude, you better call that Zheng He home! This expensive, kooky exploration kick is pissing off the ancestors!

Google Zheng He for more on the golden age of Chinese expansionism.
 
  

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