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Consensus Reality - Religions

 
 
Hero_Zero
06:19 / 14.04.03
Anyways...to the point. In whose right mind believes that ONLY THROUGH JESUS may you be saved.

I've lost count, but at least ten major world religions. All believing that their own book to be true...their own way to be the access to heaven.

Anyways I just wanted to get some ideas on Consesus Reality and Comparitive Religions.

(
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
08:29 / 14.04.03
Uh Soma Irot, can you edit your post so it makes some sense? And once a mod understands the topic can they add an abstract?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:20 / 14.04.03
Okay, as a moderator I'd like to invite Soma Irot to suggest a topic abstract, and be a bit more specific about what this thread is intended to cover - comparing religions, it ought to be clear, is a vast area of discussion. As for how religion relates to consensus reality, I think the way these threads tend to work best is if the person who starts them puts forward at least in vague terms their understanding of the issue at hand - so tell us how *you* think religion relates to consensus reality (and perhaps how you define the latter term).

I'd also be interested to hear which are the "ten major world religions" that believe you can be saved "ONLY THROUGH JESUS".
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
12:33 / 14.04.03
Perhaps he's referring to that little known Muslim Jesus...

But based on what I'm guessing Irot is talking about, he may want to Google 'reality tunnels' as a phrase to get some stuff.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:37 / 14.04.03
I'd go so far as to argue that not even Christianity can be said to be a religion which "believes" that you can only be saved through Jesus. I'm sure there are many Christians who believe this. I'm sure there are churches in which it is taught as doctrinal truth as a matter of policy, I'm sure there are denominations in which it is enshrined as a fundamental article of faith. That's not quite the same thing. The trouble with trying to generalise about world religions is that they tend to be very broad churches. You know, by definition.
 
 
Jack Fear
14:53 / 14.04.03
Of course, there is that pesky "No one comes to the Father except through me" thing to contend with...

Note that Soma has corrected hir original post to the more accurate

I've lost count, but at least ten major world religions. All believing that their own book to be true...their own way to be the access to heaven.

So, let us proceed from there.
 
 
Hero_Zero
17:04 / 14.04.03
Yeah, I'm sorry about the blathering at the beginning. The Impe show just got me thinking. That and my brain had shut down an hour before the post.

I wasn't saying that all religions believe in Jesus as their saviour.
I was trying to state the fact that many Christians nowdays have a tunnel view of whats right...and who's right in their eyes ? Them.

I was just trying to get an idea of how the other 10 plus major world religions, who don't see Jesus as their saviour, but in one form or another they all have their "personal jesus".

Because when torn down to the basic constructs, most religions share many common themes. And if this is so, why all the fuss over which of their Gods is better.

Hope this makes a bit more sense.
 
 
grant
17:43 / 14.04.03
In Taoism, Lao Tzu isn't venerated the same way, and the Tao is just... everywhere, but then again, it's a bit of a strange one when compared to other religions.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
17:56 / 14.04.03
Same deal with Buddhism, is it not? No God, just a series of great teachers since the Buddha himself, prescribing the eightfold path to Enlightenment, more of a philosophy than a religion.
 
 
Jack Fear
18:15 / 14.04.03
Okay, enough woolgathering: let's go back to first principles.

Soma, which ten were you thinking of in particular?

Christianity, presumably, is #1 with a bullet: No one comes to the Father et cetera.

Islam also has the absolutist statement "There is no god but Allah and Mohammed is His Prophet," right at its very center.

Judaism has the whole "You shall have no gods besides Me" thing going on; but Judaism is less salvation-centered than the other two Abrahamic faiths—it's less a promise of what comes after death than a design for living.

Any others you're thinking of? Cos I'm drawing a blank on any other major salvation-based, exclusionary faiths....
 
 
cusm
18:45 / 14.04.03
Is the target of this discussion more fundamentalists, perhaps?
 
 
Baz Auckland
18:51 / 14.04.03
I think more people now have an open idea of 'all religions are equal.' As long as you're following good, you're okay. I think most Christians think this way, I remember reading something by the Pope saying something along the same lines. As long as your religion is good, you're good.
 
 
Nematode
19:21 / 14.04.03
Sorry, is that the smae pope who in 1995 described buddhism as 'negative', 'aesthetic' and "fundamentally contrarary to the development of both man himself and the world"? Can't be must be a different one.....
 
 
cusm
20:26 / 14.04.03
I do recall the Pope issuing a statement in the last year or so recognizing other religious paths as valid paths to salvation. With the cavat that they are still no substitution for Catholicism, of course. Still, its progress.
 
 
grant
20:40 / 14.04.03
Xoc: There's no explicit statement of this-alone-shall-save-you in Buddhism as I know it, but there's definitely a sense of the right way and the wrong way to do things, and the Buddha was the fellow who figured out the right way.
Pure Land Buddhism (Amida Buddhism) seems pretty similar to Christianity, though, with a personal savior who sets up a heavenly promised land and makes himself the key. (Just say my name: Namu Amida Butsu... or the name of my scripture: Nam Ho Rengye Kyo....)
Of course, there's more than one person/entity who achieved Buddha-hood, and the whole point of practice is to become a buddha yourself, so that's clearly *not* exclusionary.

I'd put them in the middle of the exclusivity spectrum.

Hinduism I'm really not that clear on, since there are more flavors of Hinduism than there are cities in India (and Pakistan and Bangladesh, probably). They seem not very exclusionary on the face of it, but I wouldn't be surprised if a Saivite sadhu thinks the only path to righteousness and goodness is through Shiva, or a member of the Society for Krishna Consciousness believes the only way to truly devote yourself to God (or godliness) is through Lord Krishna.


The question pertinent to Jack Fear's point is: are these salvation-based faiths? I'd say yes, in most cases - there's a definite sense of a reward at the end of life, in the form of a better rebirth, or an assumption into the Peaceful Void.

Personally, I take the "Only through me" statements as a hallmark of mystic experience, a kind of universal-only, if that makes sense, where all experience (time, self, the universe) gets condensed to a singular point, and everything else proceeds from that profound point.
If the Universe is All One, then there's no alternative, because an alternative is Other.
That'd be the Joseph Campbell model, I suppose.

I'm positive I thunked this through in the Head Shop a year or so ago.
 
 
Francine I
21:45 / 14.04.03
There's always the Buddhist "Triple Refuge" -- but even then, providing circumstances are correct, you don't require the Triple Refuge. You don't need to know about it. Buddha wasn't Buddha because he alone was special, but at least partially because his circumstances were special. His intellect was nurtured in an (almost) total lack of suffering. Upon the observation of suffering, his spiritual path widens, and he begins to learn. But it's made clear that his access to enlightenment was lucky indeed (or karmic indeed) but not divinely selected. For what it's worth. It's likened, I think -- what happened to Buddha -- to the process of a Sea Turtle rising up in the ocean at just the right time and place to find his head inside the only golden yoke floating about the whole of the ocean, without having known about the yoke in advance.
 
 
Hero_Zero
00:38 / 15.04.03
Jack Fear. As for the ten religions I was thinking of, not all of them were the same ideals as others. Just stripped down might look the same.

1.) Hinduism
2.) Judaism
3.) Zoroastrianism
4.) Buddhism
5.) Shinto
6.) Confucianism
7.) Jainism
8.) Taoism
9.) Christianity
10.) Islam
11.) Sikhism
12.) Bahá'í
 
 
Salamander
04:57 / 15.04.03
The problem could be that religion used to be a cultural regulator and guide rail, and that since western and other cultures are moving away from dogmatic salvation cults, the cults are forced slowly into extreme behavior, i.e. the antiabortion extremists, muslim political terrorism, ect. I like to think of religion as a flailing dying animal trying to do as much harm as it can before it dies.
 
 
Hero_Zero
05:08 / 15.04.03
Hence trying to get as many aboard the train before it derails ? I see that most religions however old, no longer fit the paradigm of what it means to be spiritual. If anything it has lost it's sense of connection to the divine and made it a bad thing to find God in everything and everyone. And when one religion makes a mockery out of the other, the other fights back. When in turn no religion is better than the other, because essentially aren't they worshiping the same god/desses ? So it neither makes any of them right, nor wrong. Possible somewhere in the middle. They lost the sense of self in the divine in order to be pure to something that may or may not exsist (i.e. heaven, hell, armageddon)...

Which makes me wonder why I walk the pagan path...hmmm
 
 
Nematode
17:22 / 15.04.03
Ken Wilbur, anyone?
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
11:46 / 16.04.03
Jack Fear Islam also has the absolutist statement "There is no god but Allah and Mohammed is His Prophet," right at its very center.

But you aren't supposed to venerate Mohammed are you? He's important for telling the world what Gabriel told him, but he's not 'special' in the way that Jesus is for a Christian.
 
 
Jack Fear
14:38 / 16.04.03
Well, "venerate" and "worship" are not exactly the same thing (saints are venerated, but only God is to be worshipped), but I take your point: you're correct, you are not to worship Mohammed—but you are supposed to worship Allah according to the laws and restrictions that Allah dictated to Mohammed—and any other way is right out, you infidel dog.
 
 
grant
16:44 / 16.04.03
Nematode: unpack, please!
 
 
Nematode
17:24 / 16.04.03
?
 
 
Jack Fear
17:34 / 16.04.03
"Unpack" = Don't just drop a name, tell us who he is, what he's done, what his ideas are, how they're applicable to the question at hand, and what you think of them in this context.
 
 
Nematode
19:19 / 16.04.03
Oh right nobody ever seems to have heard of this guy which I keep finding surprising so I thought I'd drop the name in to see if anybody had [and I did it twice which kind of makes it somewhat less snappy but there you go] Anyway Ken Wilber this very interesting, absolutely non-flaky transpersonal psychologist bod from the states who's kind of dreamt up a reaonably cedible unifying field theory for modern philosophy/spirituality which I am not even going to attempt to explain on this message board 'cos I'll be here all night and I probably won't make a very good job of it. The pertinant part of KW here is his concept of post rational spirituality [nb spirituality is very clearly differentiated from the power systems and mediation of experience by a priesthood that is religion] which has obliquely popped up on this thread a couple of times. Ken's take on it is the idea that there are level of human developement that have been documented reaonably well by freud and in a sense marx but that this is a partial understanding of the potential growth process which can be seen in both the individual and the species. Essentially he sort of welds freud onto buddhism [suggesting that freudian interepretations of meditative experience as schizophrenic interludes of no value, is wide of the mark.] His central thesis is that we are evolving. Essentially human developement such as the stages a baby goes through in understanding itself in relaton to the world or a child when s/he reaches an early understanding of death can be mapped onto developement of the species [major changes like developing a sense of time that goes beyond day and night or the seasons. developing the notion of the ego and the individual, which happened comparatively recently] Everybody still following me? Good. The post rational bit is the bit that comes after post modernisim where nothing can really be said to be ultimately true and existentialism where you sort of know there is nothing except you in the world. It's the point where everything is explicable. It's where you follow the newtonian/cartesian paradigm to it's logical conclusion and realise the map is a reflection of the map maker that rationality can never explain the workings of the spirit and that a world that leaves that out of the equation ain't worth living in and that we cannot really understand anything about the psyche with the approach we have and we are aware of all the implications of the quantuum paradigm without having thoroughly rewritten human experience. At a personal level post rational spirituality is a non collective individual experience, as opposed to prerational spirituality that is about collapsing back into a pre egoic collective state eg nazism. The experience occurs after an understanding of selfhood and its' inherent despair from which one may progress to transcndance of the ego rather than the collapse that it may superficially appear to resemble. Reading this back I realise the impossibility of in any way summarising what this guy has to say. He's a bit like Fritjof Kapra but somewhat bigger and brighter [FK gets a bit of a dissing I'm afraid] and I'm sort of pleased no one's really heard of him although he's quite big on the continent where they are more into humanistic philosophers, [apparently] 'cos there really isn't anyone else with ideas like these and he's is going to make a big impact when he finally arrives. Key him into google and you get a bit up about him, oh and he's name checked in the Invisibles third volume. In terms of books Grace and Grit, about the death of his wife from cancer or A Brief History of Everything are good places to start I haven't read his new one Boomeritis but I have no doubt it's up to snuff and touts itself as another easy entry point to his ideas.
 
 
Annunnaki-9
16:05 / 17.04.03
I've got nothing to write about Ken Wilbur except tyhat he seems to have written an awful lot of books.

You guys are correct in that in traditional Islam, one isn't supposed to worship Muhammad (PBUH). But one of the five pillars of Islam, those five actions one must do if physically and financially capable in order to please God and theoretically get to heaven, is the shahaddah. The shahaddah is the profession of faith, 'There is no god but God and Muhammad is his prophet.' So while you don't worship him, it is a matter of religious orthodoxy to recognize him.

On the topic of ecumenicalism and interfaith relations, it's not quite as simple as 'we're right,' you're wrong.' Islam sees itself as a clarification of previous monotheistic revelations, Judaism, Christianity, and a few others know only by tantalizing hints in the Qur'an. They agree that Jesus, Moses, Abraham, etc. are part of their prophetic ancestry. So, Christians and Jews can ge pleasing enough to God to get to Heaven. Still, there is the ultimate expression of willingness to serve God, namely Islam. THey solved this by proposing ranked heavens, with only exceptionally good Muslims in the highest (the seventh or ninth, depending on the author), with good monotheists in lower heavens. A compromise.

Judaism apparently has a view of the good of all people being recognized by God. I dont have my books with me, but check out the latest Atlantic Monthly for Bernard Lewis' article on toleration and exclusion. He mentions this idea.

Christianity in my study comes off more exclusionary, but even then, the Quakers are Christians, and they're quite open.
 
  
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