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Baseball protest....

 
  

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Capitalist Piglet
15:26 / 24.04.03
Grant, I was just showing that Hollywood leans to the left, by the numbers. Nothing more. Reagan, Thomson, and Bono are something rare, IMO. Anyway, this explains why entertainment tends to reflect liberal view points (with the exception of Touched by an Angel and country music songs).
 
 
grant
15:38 / 24.04.03
I'm taking it that was a reply to Flyboy, not me.

Anyway, I checked the links. I'm curious how opensecrets constitutes "the industry." There's a reference to "PACs and individuals" in one of the footnotes -- so does that refer to pro-moviemaking lobbyists & coalitions?

Looking deeper... ah. According to the opensecrets "About This Industry: Background" page, the numbers include contributions fromthe usual Hollywood suspects, but also the RIAA (recording industry). Most of the money has focused on specific laws dealing with "media violence" and "copyright protection."

The lists of celebrities, though, I can't find on the site.

And I'm really curious how Peter Gabriel, Gabriel Byrne, and a few others on that second list could be classed as "Democrats" when they're foreign nationals, as far as I know. (This right-of-center site makes something of the fact that Bianca Jagger's actually Nicaraguan.)
 
 
Capitalist Piglet
15:43 / 24.04.03
That last link contains the lists, and the links to those lists are down at the bottom of the article. I don't know the answer to "There's a reference to 'PACs and individuals' in one of the footnotes -- so does that refer to pro-moviemaking lobbyists & coalitions?" I would never say these sources were the end-all-be-all to this subject. But are you trying to say that Hollywood is NOT typically liberal (or more liberal than mainstream American, to be more exact)?
 
 
grant
15:45 / 24.04.03
Ooh! you snuck in between posts again!

Anyway,

Reagan, Thomson, and Bono are something rare, IMO. Anyway, this explains why entertainment tends to reflect liberal view points (with the exception of Touched by an Angel and country music songs).

I'm not sure it does. I mean, the basic narratives are always about the victory of the little guy, who is the sympathetic victim of massive, heartless forces. Could play into either camp, depending on the emphasis. I mean, is Titanic a liberal or a conservative story? Is Terminator? Or the TV show Friends? (I'm trying to think of hits here.)

I dunno.

Anyway, Susan Sarandon might have a big mouth, but she's not actually running for public office. She's not making policy, just pointing to things she doesn't like. And talking and talking.

A new form of "bully pulpit" maybe.
 
 
Capitalist Piglet
16:23 / 24.04.03
Oh, Sarandon can talk away 'til she's blue in the face. Doesn't bother me. I am just defending the Hall of Fame's right to dis-invite her and Robbins. I'll be happy to tackle those few movies/TV shows for ya.

Titanic: Corporate greed caused the ship to move too quickly into the iceberg-laden waters, the evil rich people kept the poor people at the bottom of the boat, Kate Winslet escapes from her stuffy and sexist fiance, and we get to see nipple. Sounds liberal to me.

Terminator: you'll just have to forgive me, because I forget some of the plot elements, so I can't exactly comment on it

Friends: Everyone sleeps with each other. Having babies out of wedlock and never seeming to take care of them is A-OK. They never seem to go to work, so they must be living off government assistance. Gotta be liberal.

OK, there were a few jokes thrown in there, but you could give me even more movies/TV shows/songs to analyze and I could find liberal themes in there. Is that a bad thing? No, not at all. I'm not that crotchety. Hehe.
 
 
fluid_state
17:56 / 24.04.03
Cap Piglet: > I am just defending the Hall of Fame's right to dis-invite her and Robbins.
all good. I'd cancel them too, thinking that they'd use the occasion (and time I was paying for) to espouse views that didn't necessarily have much to do with baseball. But cancelling the film itself, or the celebration of a sport that's quintessentially American, is reactionary and uncalled for. It's their right to do so; the way in which they've exercised that right seems foolish and divisive.

I beleive that's the source of the "anti-Americanism", the aspect which seems directed not at the government, but at it's people. That this marvelous country, filled with wonderful people and replete with a history uncommonly rich for it's youth, could appear to be squandering every quality that makes it wondrous and unique.

Hell, let Robbins and Sarandon show up for the celeration. Let them bring friends, even. If no one present wants to hear what they have to say, they'll know it. American audiences aren't particularily quiet, and nothing would make the right/pro-war/(insert faction here)'s case better than being booed off stage. That's how you should use free speech.
 
 
Capitalist Piglet
18:58 / 24.04.03
Yeah, it would have been more fun had they gone and gotten booed off. I guess my only beef with the Hall of Fame is that they KNOW how Sarandon and Robbins are. Even if there WASN'T a war going on, they'd surely take the opportunity to talk about some un-related political topic and how they felt about it. The only thing was that people found out they were going to be there and probably wrote nasty letters to the Hall of Fame. Again, it's the Hall of Fame's right to do so, and the right of the public to write nasty letters about Sarandon and Robbins. We can't take away people's rights to do these things privately, but we can say that it's irresponsible. Same with the Dixie Chicks. They have the right to say what they want, anywhere they want it, but I can still say that they were irresponsible with their choice of words, timing, and location.
 
 
Baz Auckland
21:34 / 24.04.03
(I would excuse the Titanic, because as far as I know the rich wankers did in fact lock up the poor in the bottom to drown)

I think the Hall of Fame is just being odd. I've never seen Bull Durham, but does it have anything to do with politics? Couldn't they have had a celebration of the movie without bringing political views into it? Or was the Hall of Fame guy worried about Sarandon and Robbins launching into a political speech?
 
 
PatrickMM
22:29 / 24.04.03
A few things on the whole thread.

Maybe it's because I lean to the liberal side, but I've never really seen any sort of liberal bias in the US media, particularly since September, 11. I don't think anyone could claim that this war is being covered with a liberal stance. It feels like the media is all about supporting the troops, and portrays the protesters against the war as extremists.

About Hollywood being excessively biased to the left. Most actors live in California or New York, two of the most liberal states. So, it would be logical that they would lean towards the left. I know here in New York, I was covering the election in November, and people asked how "we" were doing, just implying that it was democratic. However, it's not accurate that all of Hollywood is liberal, or against Bush. Look at the reception for Michael Moore at the Oscars, he was booed off the stage.

So, people were either genuinely pro-war, or were putting on a pro war face, which would say something else about America, post 9-11. It seems like we've reverted to the 50's, in that anyone who isn't for the president is un-American, and celebrities are always being targetted as un-American, or un-patriotic, just like it used to be with Communists. The war agaisnt terrorism is the new Cold War, in that it allows the government to get away with things that would never be justifiable without saying that it's "to prevent terrorism." It's possible to be for America, without being for everything that America does. I thought that was the whole point of free speech.

I think the Hall of Fame incident is awful. Susan Sarandon appeared at the Oscars, and didn't make any sort of public outcry against the war, and I'm sure she wouldn't turn the event into a political protest, if the Hall of Fame talked to her about it before hand.

I have no problem with people holding political beliefs against someone, but it's the near deifying of Bush that's really disturbing. He's an alcoholic who was on drugs until he was thirty-five, and can't even string together an unscripted paragraph, not a great leader. Anyone can kill, it takes a real leader not to kill.
 
 
Ganesh
23:59 / 24.04.03
Indeed. Ape shouldn't kill ape.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
08:31 / 25.04.03
the Democratic party typically holds views that are left of center (in the US, mind you),

Ahahaha! Hahahaha!
*ROTFL*

You have got to be kidding me.
 
 
Capitalist Piglet
13:54 / 25.04.03
Cherry bomb, would you like to support your counterargument with some examples?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:08 / 25.04.03
I think the "in the US" bit is key, but I'm not going to start adjusting my own terminology to reflect how tilted to the right the political spectrum has become in the US (and to a lesser extent the UK). I call 'em like I see 'em: this isn't without it's own problems/exceptions (eg, the term 'moderate' has been co-opted not to mean 'anyone who essentially goes along with the dominant ideology without making *too* much fuss', making it virtually useless to me except as an insult), but it makes more sense than devaluing terms I value, such as "left-wing".

I don't really know where to start in addressing the all-too-common myth that Hollywood and the media in general promote a liberal/left-wing agenda. Mind you, since when asked to apply this to examples you fall into comedy in its broadest sense, I'm not sure it's worth my time. Serious examples, please - and try to extend your definition of liberal or left-wing beyond "allowing a degree of sexual freedom for the heterosexual, white upper-middle class" (re: Friends).
 
 
Capitalist Piglet
14:35 / 25.04.03
I don't see the problem with injecting a little humor into this debate (since it is largely very funny to me). The poltical stance of celebrities is pretty much a useless subject. The only problem it creates is an annoyance to the public that may feel differently than they do. I suppose it doesn't really matter WHERE they sit on the spectrum, or where the US's spectrum is compared to the rest of the world. The point is that the public has a right to dislike what celebrities say and do, and right now a lot of the American public feels that way.
 
 
sleazenation
15:23 / 25.04.03
Capitalist piglet sez:
The point is that the public has a right to dislike what celebrities say and do, and right now a lot of the American public feels that way.


or do they? according to recent reports protests against the Dixie Chicks were not nearly as reprisentative of the grass roots of American popular opinion as was first reported...
 
 
Cherry Bomb
15:35 / 25.04.03
Well I just don't know how you can call someone like, say, Joe Lieberman a big lefty. And tell me if you can count on more than one hand the number of Democrats who stood up to W and his war?

I will give you more examples but I'm going to the pub first.
 
 
Capitalist Piglet
16:56 / 25.04.03
Cherry, that means they are pussies, not that they don't believe in typically left-of-center ideas.

Sleaze, I said "a lot". I never really quantified it.
 
 
Ganesh
19:47 / 25.04.03
No, you didn't. Significantly.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
11:39 / 26.04.03
Piglet, now you've gotten me a little cranky. Because I do not think you speak for all Americans, or spoke for all the "Normal, non-Liberal" ones at any rate. Your arguments are weak, sweeping and general at best, and you might want to take a bit of your own advice and back up your counterarguments with some facts yourself. Humor is all well and good, but using it to cover up a crap argument won't help you, amiga.

Now. Let's begin. First of all let me tell you that I am from the midwest. Yup, Middle America where they grow "Normal American Folks." Most of my family live in rural and suburban areas. Relatively conservative "middle-of-the road" territory. Some of my family are Republicans, some of my family are those oh-so-left-of center these days Democrats. Of all the folks in my family NOT ONE is pleased with the job George W. Bush is doing. Not. One. From 21-year-old hippie cousin to my 80-year-old WWII veteran grandfather to my normally Republican uncle Dan. Not one of them is happy with W. Out of all my friends and people I know in the U.S., and I don't know if my view will "count" with you of course because although I was born raised and lived in the U.S. for 29 years I don't "reside" there now, but of all the people I know I can think of only a handful of people who are pleased with W.'s job. Now, I am a "liberal" myself but that' s my personal experience. Though I differ from you in that I don't think my view and that of those I know is necessarily "The View of All Regular Americans."

You may be wrong about the majority of Americans hating "liberal Hollywood" or you may be right, but thusfar you've not brought forth a shred of evidence to back up your opinion. You may recall several years ago that we had a contested election in our country. Though W "won," the truth is the vote in our country was essentially split 50-50. The build-up to war created some of the largest global protests in history; in the U.S. hundreds of thousands marched in cities across the country. Green party candidate Ralph Nader is the reason some people say Al Gore lost the election. What does that tell you? It tells me that Americans are essentially at the very least divided, and many of us are searching for an alternative to the "puppet on the left" or the "puppet on the right."

Now, maybe it's because you're, as you said, middle-conservative that you can't see that the democratic party is not left of center but rather "center-left." I agree with you that the Democrats have been wimpy lately. They're scared to death of being branded "UnAmerican" or "partisian." Never mind the fact that Republicans have been playing and continue to play partisan politics themselves.

But let's take a look at the Republican and Democratic parties. This post is getting a little long, so I'll post this one then the other one.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
11:54 / 26.04.03

So here we are again. Republicans and Democrats. Republicans do tend to have members of the Christian Right in their numbers, and Democrats often have say, Pro-Choicers among theirs. We've all ready mentioned the fact that many "liberal" democrats chose to side with W. and let him have his war. While that may or may not make them pussies, it doesn't make them left of center. Especially since I was under the impression, and I'm guessing you were too, that being anti-war was the "liberal" or "left of center" point of view.

Here's another example of an area where we might have the "conservative Republican" point of view and the "liberal Democrat" point of view: Abortion. And yet this article indicates that Republicans are joining liberals in this point of view. We all know how pro-life our president is, but even he doesn't represent all of them.

Well, here's a nice little page that can do the talking for me.
 
 
alas
18:58 / 27.04.03
I have lived in the US, the heartland of it, my whole life. My parents are farmers, retiring this year, registered Republicans. My sister is a fundamentalist Christian who lives in Iowa. My other sister is a middle-democrat small-business owner in Minnesota. The rest of my family are farmers, and I teach at a fairly conservative, liberal arts college with a Christian affiliation.

This country, led by the media has, in the 30+ years I've been on this planet, become increasingly conservative. We're not quite at THE HANDMAID'S TALE yet, but we're moving that direction, via BRAVE NEW WORLD, in my opinion.

The media is corporate controlled. There are 5 corporations--Viacom, Time/Warner, Fox, MSNBC, and a German-based corporation--that control something like 90% of all television, movies, print-media, books, music in the US. Those 5 corporations produce and edit and profit from virtually everthing your average US citizen sees. Yes, they will show lots of sex; sex sells. But the way they show sex is essentially conservative: women are passive (regularly raped, in fact, during prime time) and they are more likely to disrobe; men are aggressive and their bodies less visible. Condom commercials are non-existent in mainstream media, still. So to call the existence of "sex" on TV as liberal is simplistic.

And more and more time is given over, in all forms of media, including the Internet, to commercials. Using commercials to support media production means that the media inherently tilts "right": commercial support means corporate support. Anything not likely to be profitable or to complicate the minds of the demographic those corporations seek to reach--e.g., educational television, for instance--will not get support. It's easier to sell to people who don't challenge what they see, or who challenge it only in ways you can predict. That's why there's only something like 1 investigative journalist for every 10 public relations workers in the U.S. Lots of spin, lots of heat, a little shouting in the name of "a variety of perspectives," very little light.

When I was in England during an election in the late 1980s, I was stunned to see two Marxists arguing about Leninism versus classical Marxism. I have never seen anything like that on TV in the U.S. yet. I have never seen anything like that in a major U.S. newspaper.

Corporations in the U.S. are "conservative" in their views of the role of government and markets. However, I think one must define "conservative" in this sense: conservative corporations do not actually like free markets. What they like are "sure things," e.g., government giveaways that benefit only a tiny, economic elite (Halliburton, and Bechtel, most recently; Enron, before that). Taking advantage of those giveaways, however, is not seen as being dependent on "big government" or as the government interfering with the free enterprise system; it's just being "smart." So throughout the 1980s and 1990s, a few massive congolomerates paid a great deal of money to ensure that they would have an easier and easier time taking over formerly publicly owned space--and with the variety of telecommunications acts, this particularly targeted the airwaves and rules about monopolistic practices in the media. Seeking fewer restrictions on what they do there, in the name of "increasing competition," which is supposed to be wonderful for the consumer by promoting low prices.

But they didn't "increase competition." The corporations immediately began merging with one another (now in the name of "efficiency") so that now very few corporations monopoloze huge sectors of the economy, particularly the media, and continue to press for control--at firesale prices--of what little is still in the public sector. Even our military is increasingly dependent on "privatized" sectors.

There's a fallacy out there that markets are "natural forces." But they are not: they are a human production. Therefore, they are much more like games, the product of human choices made within systems in which there are rules, enforced by governments. The rules in the US are so strongly tilted in favor of massive corporations, in all sectors of the economy, that we can't even see how "conservative" our country has become, in the sense that we are moving more and more towards being an oligarchy, where a small group of high-level capitalists are increasingly controlling the wealth of the world, and writing our laws in order to ensure that their control is indisputable, a "sure thing." True markets--with negotiations between costumers and persons who have any real power to determine the prices--are becoming a thing of the past. Wealth is being massively transferred up the scale (now there are 225 people in the world who control more wealth than 1/2 of the rest of the human population).

Welfare in the US is almost non-existent. 1/2 of the tax-giveaway that the SENATE is currently proposing would pay for health-care for all children under 18 in this country. But no one's even talking about that.

It DOES matter that our culture has been brainwashed by a corporate press into not seeing what is happening in our culture. Nixon would be unelectable as too liberal today, with his support for universal health coverage, opening of relations with communist China. We are not simply more conservative by European standards; we are more "conservative"--if that's the correct term--by our own standards, and it is hurting us deeply.

"The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than the democratic state itself. That in its essence is fascism: ownership of government by an individual, by a group or any controlling private power." - Franklin Roosevelt

Sarandon and Robbins don't live in Hollywood, by the way; they live in New York City. And their power and wealth is miniscule by comparison to the corporations that are controlling our current government, and, increasingly (alas!) the world.
 
 
Capitalist Piglet
19:45 / 27.04.03
Well, you guys win. Not because you are right (because you are not, IMO), but because your asses out-typed me, and I just don't have as much time to devote to this as I thought.
 
 
Ganesh
20:16 / 27.04.03
Naturally.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
20:32 / 27.04.03
That's a shame - I think Cherry and alas have made some very good and well-reasoned points which deserved a better response than that.

*applauds Cherry and alas*
 
 
Cherry Bomb
08:21 / 28.04.03
Heh. Thanks Kit-Cat. CP, thanks for reinforcing what many people all ready think about conservative America. "Mega-dittos, Rush!"

By the way I see the link about Republicans and Democrats that I wanted to use isn't working. I don't know what I did wrong so how about I just throw the url in and you can check it out:

http://www.greens.org/ri/comparison.PDF
 
 
Capitalist Piglet
12:28 / 28.04.03
And I should trust something from a Green Party website because???

I don't think this subject will ever be agreed upon. Most of you who have posted seem to be, or have admitted to being, very very left wing, making it difficult to objectively analyze the politics of conservative America. And it doesn't matter to me what your grandpa's political views are. People tend to surround themselves with others who think like them, so even if one family member is a staunch democrat, and another is a staunch republican, they will often hold similar beliefs on some things. And hey, I don't agree with Bush on everything either. I think he's made some bad moves with economic policy (probably not the same bad moves you're thinking of, but tariffs on foreign steel comes to mind). Anyway, to use the "everyone I know, including republicans thinks such-and-such" doesn't hold much weight since "everyone I know" is not always going to be a representative sample of the group you are trying to define. I mean, I live in the South, Huntsville, AL, to be exact. If you remember that county-by-county breakdown following the 2000 election, there were more blue counties in AL than there were in many of the midwestern states. I have friends and family who all have very different political beliefs, but none of them are against this war. Maybe it is geographic. I mean, after all, we have a military base and NASA, and defense/aerospace contractors employee a third of the area's population. I'm sure if you look deeper there could be some underlying factors in your area or in your group of friends/family that may make them all feel a certain way about the war.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:38 / 28.04.03
So, hang on, let me make sure I have understood this...

You're saying that nobody who is not an American conservative is competent to comment on American conservative politics, because their emotions will make objectivity impossible?
 
 
Capitalist Piglet
14:26 / 28.04.03
No, I am not saying that, but when you provide links to a Green Party website, I don't find that to be a very objective viewpoint.
 
 
Ganesh
14:48 / 28.04.03
Well, you've chosen 'Capitalist Piglet' as a ficsuit; you would say that...

Etc.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:52 / 28.04.03
Most of you who have posted seem to be, or have admitted to being, very very left wing, making it difficult to objectively analyze the politics of conservative America.

Now, first up it strikes me that actually a lot of people here, including myself, have not "admitted to" being "very very left wing", so by "seems to" are you simply saying that anyone who disagrees with you is going to be "very very left wing", and by extension will be unable to comment coherently on conservative American politics? Because if so, the same logic presumably says that you are not going to be able to speak competently about the beliefs being held by the "very very left wing" people, and thus we may as well all give up and go home.

You seem to be investing a lot in the idea that Barbelith is a) left wing, which by your definition is probably broadly but not exclusively true, and b) not competent to criticise, which is goign to cause some problems.
 
 
Jack Fear
15:14 / 28.04.03
...when you provide links to a Green Party website, I don't find that to be a very objective viewpoint.

Ah. Shooting the messenger, then. A time-honored tradition.

Okay, then: What news sources do you use?
And how objective are they?

And how sure are you of that?
 
 
alas
19:33 / 28.04.03
[thanks kit-kat!] cp, c'mon, now. let's talk. I'm not angry, I'm not even directing you to the green party website (although I don't see the reason you believe that's _inherently_ unreliable; no source is "objective"; all come from a perspective. Some are better than others; it's good if we know the perspective so we can judge it from within that perspective. I like your moniker because I know where you're coming from.)

So, anyway, I'm genuinely interested in discussing this: I only listed my "credentials" because you seemed to think that anyone from outside the U.S. was already tainted on this score. I actually think that in some ways we'd agree: the connection between government and industry, for instance, your libertarian perspective should see as problematic. The problem that I perceive in your perspective is that it's based on a mis-reading of Adam Smith and a misunderstanding of the worldview of Thomas Jefferson.

Let's talk.
alas
 
 
Capitalist Piglet
20:05 / 28.04.03
Feel free to PM me.
 
 
Leap
08:37 / 29.04.03
CP -

Would you say that you are pro:

Private property
2nd ammendment

and are generally a blend of conservative (with a small 'c') and libertarian?

and anti:

High taxation
the "entangling alliances" Washington warned about

?
 
 
Capitalist Piglet
12:48 / 29.04.03
Leap, yes, yes, yes, and yes. How about you?

Haus, I'm quite a lush.
 
  

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