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Quantum Magick and Magical Laws

 
  

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Quantum
10:02 / 10.04.03
This is two threads in one. Firstly the discovery of magical laws by science in the quantum realm, secondly a discussion of magical laws in general.

Quantum Magick
For those of you who don't know much about Quantum Physics
Here's a primer.
Some phenomenon have been discovered that exactly match traditional magical principles known for thousands of years. Take quantum entanglement in which...
"Two elementary particles that had once interacted remained linked in a mysterious way, so that a change of decision by the observer as to what to measure on one of them could instantaneously affect the outcome of a measurement on the other. Einstein referred to this as "spooky action at a distance", and his objections to it were so strong that it is more than likely that, had he realised that the choice lay between that and the photon idea, he would have discarded the latter. He did realise that quantum theory, despite its steadily growing reputation as a predictive model, never wrong, had become a monster, no longer under anyone’s control"
That's known in occult circles as the principle of Contagion "Once together always together".
Action at a distance? Instantaneous (thus faster than light) causation? The observer principle? These are all classical magical ideas, rediscovered by mathematics as scientific truth, and were fiercely opposed by traditionalist physicists including Einstein;
"Yet here are the fundamental physicists accepting an effect that can only be described as magic, and the theory offers no attempt at physical explanation – it simply follows from the algebra."

So, what do you mages think of that?
 
 
Quantum
10:19 / 10.04.03
Frazer in 'The Golden Bough' defined the laws of magic as sympathy (like affects like) and contagion (once together always together) and believed all other magical beliefs derived from these two laws.

An alternative view is this list;

The Laws of Magic (from my friend Richard)

THE LAW OF KNOWLEDGE- Understanding brings control

THE LAW OF SELF KNOWLEDGE- To thine own self be true

(All the other laws depend on these two: it is wise to remember this)

THE LAW OF NAMES- Knowing the True Name of something gives you control over it
THE LAW OF WORDS OF POWER- Certain words have the power to change
THE LAW OF ASSOCIATION- Like affects like
THE LAW OF SIMILARITY- Effects resemble causes
THE LAW OF CONTAGION- Once together always together
THE LAW OF IDENTIFICATION- Become the God
THE LAW OF SYNTHESIS- The union of opposites
THE LAW OF POLARITY- Everything contains it's opposite
THE LAW OF BALANCE- Must keep extremes balanced
THE LAW OF INFINITE DATA- Impossible to know everything
THE LAW OF FINITE SENSES- You can't see everything
THE LAW OF INFINITE UNIVERSES- Many ways to see the elephant
THE LAW OF PRAGMATISM- If it works then it's true
THE LAW OF TRUE FALSEHOODS- Paradoxes contain power
THE LAW OF PERSONIFICATION- Anything can have a personality
THE LAW OF INVOCATION AND EVOCATION- Beings within and beings without


Quantum physics has versions of Association, Similarity, Contagion, Polarity, Balance, Infinite data, Finite senses, Infinite universes, True falsehoods and possibly Invocation and Evocation.

Also please note that chaos theory and fractal research (and the film Pi) indicate the justification of the ancient maxim 'As above, so below'.

is this proof? :P
 
 
Cygnum
10:27 / 10.04.03
Quantum, where is this list from?

Reminds me of the Universal Cycle of Joy by Christopher Hyatt:-
"Based upon the writings and revealations of Dr. Wilhelm Riech, the Universal Cycle of Joy depicts; intelligently, the Nature of all DNA based lifeforms. The theory itself was formulated by Dr. Christopher S. Hyatt using the basic idea of tension - charge - discharge - and relaxation.

Perhaps an easier way to understand this would be to imagine everything in the world as though a pulsating organism in constant flux. Everything goes through the UCJ. Tension - charge - discharge - relaxation. Taken on an evolutionary context this cycle can certainly be labeled as a success. Anything that does not succed in completing this cycle will surely fail on this planet. Thankfully most of our mechanical unconscious survival programs perform this cycle without our conscious participation.

However, intentional evolution requires a deep understanding of this system as it wil naturally be reflected in all people and all things.

This means it is therefore possible to classify four types of humeans:

The tension type. One who never builds up a charge.

The Charge type. One who builds up a charge but never achieves a discharge.

The Discharge type. One whom never succeeds in relaxation after discharge.

The Cycle type. One whom experiences the joy of going through the whole cycle."
 
 
Quantum
11:01 / 10.04.03
This list is from my friend Richard.
I think that Reichian idea is interesting, but in my opinion everyone goes through the whole cycle. Also it is like a lot of other categorisations, tied up with a lot of other beliefs.

What I'm talking about is metamagick, rules on how magick works across different paradigms; How magick works, be it Wicca, Voudoun, Hermetic, Chaos or Shamanic.
 
 
Leap
14:50 / 10.04.03
You forgot the law of KNOW YOUR LIMITS – which says you can get away with licking a battery, but it is not advisable to lick the power socket



Remember what I said about modesty

Incidentally, if your name were not Quantum, would that make you the BFG?
 
 
mixmage
01:48 / 11.04.03
Richard?
Has he read any Bonewits?
 
 
Quantum
10:50 / 11.04.03
You should read his Dummy's guide to summoning Nyarlathotep!
 
 
Lurid Archive
11:41 / 11.04.03
It is interesting how badly common sense breaks down at these levels and how quantum ideas fit in with magickal ideas.

Having said that, I think there is a danger in overstating the degree of this "scientific truth", especially when referencing a fictional work like the film Pi. I mean, quantum stuff becomes classic Newtonian - which everyone knows is *absolutely* false - at scales much larger than the molecular.
 
 
Quantum
15:15 / 11.04.03
Pi is simply a pop culture primer for the idea of 'As above, so below' in this context- easier to namedrop that than explain about the fibonacci sequence and the nature of fractals. My point is, if we accept above=below, then the micro reflects the macro. We are discovering things about the micro world that are familiar in the macro world but not in a scientific context- in a magical context.

Q Physics is a probabilistic theory, so as you increase the scale (the population as it were) you get reliable statistical trends, which we call 'natural laws'- like newtonian mechanics. When you're dealing with a smaller scale all kinds of weirdness emerges, when you're dealing with a bigger scale (astronomy) all kinds of weirdness emerges (dark matter). Our 'common sense' is scale dependant, as Lurid points out.

I think it shows that our model of the universe is gradually approaching holism- the rise of interdisciplinary approaches and holism as a technique is indicative of this. What if we discover that consciousness is dependant on Quantum phenomenon (which some research is suggesting) and psi powers and magical effects derive from our consciousness interacting directly with the world? Utilising these quantum principles?
Science would have finally caught up with the basics of magic. Wouldn't that be cool?
 
 
Quantum
15:22 / 11.04.03
I think there is a danger in overstating the degree of this "scientific truth"
Quantum mechanics is the most thoroughly proven scientific theory of all time, "a predictive model never wrong". If you believe science's assessment of it's own success then it can't be overstated, it's truer than any other science. If you deny it you also have to deny physics, chemistry, biology and the rest of the gang.
(of course, I believe science to be only one explanatory paradigm and that there is no absolute truth.)
Just so that everyone's aware this is no maverick crackpot theory.
 
 
Lurid Archive
16:14 / 12.04.03
I still get the impression that you are overstating a touch. I´m not sure that fractals and chaos theory really demonstrate what you intend, though I´ll admit that I am hazy on what exactly that might be. So QM is a very successful theory, though it is missing something -which is why there is a such a drive to find a replacement for it. Which is to say that truth isn´t really the game, predictive power is.

Also, magick and science are concerned with different things. Given that magick cannot be "wrong" and is not concerned with consistency and falsifiability, science can´t really discover a magickal law any more than it can refute one.

Anyway, I´m not sure that QM really makes things more holistic. Different scales operate pretty independently - ask a mechanical engineer. This isn´t something that is going to be substantially overturned and is the reason that Newton will never go away.

Still it is interesting how ideas crop up in different places across disciplines. Its been going on a long time, of course. IIRC, Lucretius posited the atomic nature of matter...hmmmm, but perhaps he wasn´t the first to do so - a quick google brings up Democritus and Leucippus.. Still, pretty cool for a latin poet philosopher.
 
 
LVX23
18:40 / 12.04.03
Most quantum physicists would caution strongly against extrapolating subatomic behaviors up to higher structures, especially human behavior. That's not to say that they are correct in their caution, but it highlights the aforementioned factor of "scale". We can look at something like the non-local "communication" between quark pairs - which the mathematics seem to imply (at least recently) is a valid quantum phenomenon - but when we use that idea to "prove" telepathy the mathematics are no longer there. Similar objections can be made for "socializing" other apsects of modern physics - "It's all relative" is the familiar phrase that comes to mind. This is the social impact of Relativity on the general consciousness of the western world, but the mathematic rigours used to define Relativity Theory could never be applied to explain the differences between how I view cats versus how another views them.

I think using quantum mechanics as a foundation for magick implies that the math will remain consistent up to the magickal domain. However, due to the mathematical breakdown across scale it is perhaps more appropriate to suggest that, via magick, the mind has access to the quantum level of the brain's physiology and is capable of penetrating and influencing the holographic plenum underlying the manifested universe. Similarly, my notions of how chaos magicks works rest on the notion that mind can influence the dynamics of the aether in a way similar to the Butterfly Effect: If the spell is charged adequately and injected into the system in the right place at the right time, it can be whipped up into a major effect, like the flapping of the butterfly in the south pacific causing the hurricane in the phillipines.

I'm not sure to what degree these ideas can be proven, but I suspect that as mathematics evolves further it will utlimately find models appropriate to describing magick. The intersection of physics and magick has long been of great interest to me. I'll to to have a good think about it and expand on some of these ideas a bit...
 
 
—| x |—
07:23 / 13.04.03
So I am reading a recent issue of Scientific American, and there’s this article by Michael J. Duff (Oskar Klein Professor of Physics at the University of Michigan and director of the Michigan Center for Theoretical Physics) entitled, “the Theory Formerly Know as Strings,” which had some interesting information that seemed to give weight to an intuition that I hold regarding the structure of the Universe. In brief, he talks about a “Duality of Dualities,” which is known as “S-Duality.” Apparently, this duality is a generalization of another duality accepted in string theory called “T-Duality,” and it also seems to lead to results which appear to unify competing String theories. I will quote a paragraph:

This duality [the T-Duality] has a profound implication. For decades, physicists have been struggling to understand nature at the extremely small scales near the Plank length of 10-33- centimeter. We have always supposed that the laws of nature break down at smaller distances. What T-Duality suggests, however, is that at these scales, the universe looks the same as it does at large scales [my italics].

Kinda’ gives a new insight into “as above, so below,” eh?

Anyway, if we look to one of the modern “wizards,” we get that darn oft repeated quote, “magick is the Art and Science [again, italics mine] of…” blah d’ freakin’ blah. The point being the emphasis on Art and Science. It is interesting that the Arts have tried to develop ways of validly interpreting its subject matter—cue hermeneutics, and Science, in its own way, relies on imagination as much as it does logic and rigour to come up with new ways to analyze the world we find ourselves in. So, as Grandpa Simpson has wisely said, “a little from column A and a little from column B.”

It seems to me that a part of the problem lies directly with the idea of “interdisciplinary studies.” It seems to me that there was a time, in our past, when Science, Art, magick, religion, etc. were all bound up together. I mean, Chemistry stems from Alchemical pursuits, and Newton wrote more on Alchemy than he did on Physics (for an example). It was when we started to break up our knowledge that we went seriously wrong. There can be nothing good gained from the compartmentalizing of knowledge: where there is difference there is conflict. As Buckminster Fuller says, “Specialization is for insects,” and I for one would like to think that we are nobler than bugs. Of course, looking at the world today it is sometimes difficult to see much difference.

You see, I think that the move towards holism is, as Martha Stewart would say, “a good thing.” And those of us who are interested in such a world view have no choice but to break down the barrier that has been formed between Science and Art. I think a key to accomplishing this without debate about what justifies or validates what is to take the view, expounded by Nietzsche and others, that all language is metaphorical. ALL LANGUAGE. It doesn’t matter if that language is English, Mathematics, Enochian, or whatever: it is all talk that points to something beyond itself—it is all speech where one thing, the word, is spoken as if it were another, the thing.

Put differently, it’s not that QM justifies ideas from magick, or somehow makes them correct or TRUE. Nor is it that QM is catching up to what crafty magicians have known all along: these are all models of the world—metaphors which are attempting to relate and reflect our experiences. Holistic thinking people are synthesizers a priori: this type of thinking requires an attempt to relate aspects of seemingly compartmentalized knowledge. It is not an attempt to say that this scientific idea props up this religious idea, but that there is a common kernel of thought in both, and my isn’t that simply delightful! Besides, as someone once remarked to me, “Would you want your religion to be justified by scientific thought when it is likely that that thought will change sooner or later?” Which isn’t to say that religious tradition should stay static—look where that gets us!

So, fractals, chaos theory, and other scientific-speak might be better seen not as trying to “demonstrate” such and such a metaphysical, religious, or otherwise “Art”-like view, but rather as an attempt to put the pieces together, to overcome fragmentation. The timid mind will call it “analogy,” and make ample use of the word “coincidence.” And again, all these thoughts expressed in whatever symbols are metaphors—all thought is a product of memory, and thus, is linked to the past, places a veil over the present moment: reproduces something as something else. To quote NoMeansNo:

“In the end for light you must burn your conclusions.”

Forgive me,

eZ
 
 
Quantum
10:47 / 14.04.03
eZ- well put! I couldn't agree more.
"all language is metaphorical. ALL LANGUAGE. It doesn’t matter if that language is English, Mathematics, Enochian, or whatever: it is all talk that points to something beyond itself"
...and the languages of science and magick are starting to point to the same thing-beyond-words. These ideas are not new to magic, but they are new to science.

My main point is that the traditional antipathy between magic and science may be declining. Science has pooh-poohed magic since the rise of rationalism centuries ago, and is now approaching a point where it is independantly asserting that the world works in these ways (see laws above) that are often held to be superstitions or mistaken beliefs.
Science has been in a reductionist mode for centuries, but is now moving toward holism. This IMHO is indicative of a cyclical modal change in our culture, more on which anon, gotta go...
 
 
LVX23
03:40 / 15.04.03
el Zilcho wrote:
So, fractals, chaos theory, and other scientific-speak might be better seen not as trying to “demonstrate” such and such a metaphysical, religious, or otherwise “Art”-like view, but rather as an attempt to put the pieces together, to overcome fragmentation.

Yeah, I like the term "overcoming fragmentation". This works for me on two levels: 1) the fragmentation of disciplines, such as Science and Magick, and 2) the fragmented nature of human analysis of the Absolute.

The fragmentation of disciplines creates conflict, as eZ noted, by pitting one dogma against another as the dominant paradigm of it's genre. I think this is in part due to the nature of the human Ego and the underlying instincts of animal behavior which cause us to habitually define things and events in dualistic terms - All mundane human behavior can ultimately be reduced to simple biosurvival mechanisms. But also the ascendancy of numbers & mathematics which, ironically, were the foundation of many esoteric disciplines - Qabalah, Alchemy, Astrology - led to the decline of esotericism in favor of predictability. For better or for worse, the pursuits of the Spirit do not usually produce much in the way of material gain.
Science and it's formulae tend to regard Spiritualism as an archaic pursuit for monks and shamen toiling fruitlessly towards death. Likewise, Spiritualism often regards Science as cold and soulless always trying to pin down God and chain him to the abacus. The result is a fragmented world view where no one carries a holistic ontology approximating the true beauty and complexity and intention of Nature and the Human Spirit.

Regardless of the metaphor, the Absolute sits at the center indifferent to it's interpretation. It is the point of infinite light cast through an infinite array of facets, refracting into rainbows through the diamond of consciousness. Each of the myriad theories, philosophies, and mythologies are different facets of the diamond. Each mind looks through the eyes of God at Creation. This is the way the Absolute apprehends its Self. To quote Robert Hunter, "Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world".

To return to my second point above, this is the fragmented nature of human analysis of the Absolute. All theories and proofs are metaphors attempting to describe the manifestation of the Absolute. None are correct or true, nor are any false. Algebra is entirely consistent within algebra, just as Thelema is entirely consistent within Thelema. The square root of i means nothing to one and is a linchpin of the other. And as eZ stated, all languages are also metaphors, and this includes all maths. Language is a descriptive and a definitive tool - to name the thing is to bind the thing - and as such it is finite and limited. Like using an unlit aquarium to describe the sensation of swimming in the warm sea under a full moon, language utterly fails to capture the depth of the human experience (though poetry may come close...). The best way to truly approach an understanding of the Absolute (while remaining in western civilization) is to follow in the footsteps of those great generalists like Crowley and Bob Wilson...By gathering a multidisciplinary store of knowledge culled from wide and diverse sources, collecting many facets of the diamond so that we can attain a more complete picture of Creation.

A wonderful analogy that Sri Nisargadatta used was that Creation is like the frames of a film rolling on a projector, and the Absolute is the Light passing through them and rendering the appearance of Time and Motion and Causality.

And to quote more nomeansno (kudos el Zilcho):

"Hail to the Lies by which all Truths are hounded!"

The Method of Science, the Aim of Religion.
 
 
LVX23
03:55 / 15.04.03
And Quantum wrote:
Science has been in a reductionist mode for centuries, but is now moving toward holism. This IMHO is indicative of a cyclical modal change in our culture...

Aeon of Horus, baby (while we're talking metaphors).

Crowley received the Book of the Law in 1904. Soon after rose Nietsche, Jung, Freud, Einstein, Heisenberg, Bohr, then Lorenz, Mandelbrodt, and Leary and Wilson and Lovelock, etc.. The 20th Century marked a huge shift in the fundamental logic structures of the species, moving from Newtonian dualism, mechanism, and causality towards relativism, nonlinearity, and holism. Concurrent with this shift is the emergence of the individual psyche, the Self, the subconscious, psychoanalysis, symbology, dream interpretation, Humanism, and the rising popularity of Eastern Mysticism in the West.

Who knows how our metaphors will evolve through this century...
 
 
Salamander
04:47 / 15.04.03
Quantum- you should check out The Holographic Universe by Michael Talbot. It is a run down of a theory currently on the fringe of theoretical physics, that the universe is a giant hologram. That would explain alot of the nonlocal quatum effects, and allows for the multiverse, hidden variable, and the state vector collapse. Fractals are found everywhere in nature from micro to macro because a fractal by definition has self similar structure at evry magnification. In a hologram, information is encoded all over the picture, break the picture into pieces and every piece contains the whole, with respect that the info about the other parts is a little fuzzier. If the universe is a hologram then magick is no more than a manipulation of basic physical laws, a technology of consciousness. As above, so below,
all that.
 
 
Quantum
10:01 / 15.04.03
Yup, it's on my list- coincidence has been pointing at it recently. Although I suspect it will just confirm my suspicions

The cyclical change I refer to is after Ramsey Dukes, who posits that human culture goes through periods of dominance by Art, Religion, Science and Magic, one after the other. We are moving from a period of domination by Science to one of Magic, and this thread is an indication of how one arises from the other.

"It is the point of infinite light cast through an infinite array of facets, refracting into rainbows through the diamond of consciousness. Each of the myriad theories, philosophies, and mythologies are different facets of the diamond. Each mind looks through the eyes of God at Creation. This is the way the Absolute apprehends its Self" (LVX23)
Quite so. Each of us perceives a facet of the diamond (or a part of the elephant, see the law of finite senses) and our philosophies and mythologies attempt to reconcile these points of view into a whole, that attempts to describe the Absolute. And fails, giving us a skewed view through coloured spectacles.
I love Sri Nisargadatta's metaphor, exactly right
 
 
LVX23
16:32 / 15.04.03
Hermes wrote:
In a hologram, information is encoded all over the picture, break the picture into pieces and every piece contains the whole, with respect that the info about the other parts is a little fuzzier.

Note that in a perfect hologram there is no degradation of information - even the tiniest fragment will contain a perfect copy of the whole.
 
 
Salamander
21:17 / 15.04.03
So who can make the perfect hologram? We all can.
 
 
LVX23
00:56 / 17.04.03
Hermes wrote:
If the universe is a hologram then magick is no more than a manipulation of basic physical laws, a technology of consciousness.

Totally. Evidence from memory research is suggesting that the brain may behave holographically as well.
Magick may be akin to getting administrator's access to the meta-hologram.

The brain IS ultimately an aggregate of excitatory and inhibitory elctrochemical impulses functioning in the range of quantum indeterminancy. Neuronal organization has shown itself to be quite plastic and not fixed or rigid. Metaprogramming is essentially a process of altering neuronal physiology - rewiring the brain, as it were. It may be entirely possible, with sufficient Will, to extend this metaprogramming beyond the physiology of the brain and pass information into the field of the quantum hologram (assuming, as I do, that such a field exists).

Check this article out on Sir John Eccles, Nobel Prize winning neurophysiologist.
 
 
Quantum
06:56 / 17.04.03
note that Dennett has a new book out to tackle freedom ('Freedom Evolves') but only succeeds in complicating his theory. He has a lot of convincing arguments, but Eccles is a good example of a counterview (if a little radical).

If the universe is a hologram then magick is no more than a manipulation of basic physical laws, a technology of consciousness
And now theoretical physics is providing an explanation, a proof, that provides a rational, scientific basis for the existence of magick. It's not going to make much difference to magicians (we knew this stuff anyway) but it will make an enormous difference to popular culture, belief in magick, and how magick is perceived by the populace. Maybe they'll start teaching magick in school... *wistful idealistic look in eye*
 
 
Leap
08:53 / 17.04.03
Thaumaturgy 101
 
 
Lurid Archive
11:37 / 17.04.03
I think there is a trend here to see science as primarily or solely a attempt to produce a series of metaphors. As such it seems to tune in with magick when those metaphors agree. The fact that many working scientists actually do very little of this and that the scientific enterprise (whose success is probably due to *unhealthy* reductionism) has other goals seems to hold little weight here.

To put it another way. If you assume that every act is a magickal act and see only those efforts that are magickally oriented, then you will indeed find that science is magick. With very little effort.

It is interesting how this approach, this fetishisation of science, is so widespread now. Every movement likes to claim that science *proves* them correct. From right wing economists to social planners to food companies.

And now theoretical physics is providing an explanation, a proof, that provides a rational, scientific basis for the existence of magick.

Yes. Unfortunately this rock solid proof would probably be rejected as unscientific and spurious by the vast majority of scientists. But what do they know?
 
 
Quantum
12:47 / 17.04.03
Why? non-locality and quantum entanglement aren't unscientific and spurious, the Heisenberg uncertainty principle is intrinsic to the Copenhagen interpretation accepted in the 20s (IIRC) Schroedinger's cat has entered popular culture, wave/particle duality was proved by a father and son (who both got Nobel prizes for it) in the 30s, etc etc.
These principles are similar to the magical laws I list above, which indicates a convergence of paradigms does it not?
I'm not saying science is magic (that's another issue) or that reductionism is bad (both Reductionism and Holism have their place, check out Godel Escher Bach by Hofstadter) or fetishising science.
What I'm saying is that experimental data collected in a rigorously reductionist manner by working scientists can be interpreted (and is by theoretical physicists) to support theories about the world that are coincidentally similar to Magical theories about the world.
As a magician I take 'coincidental' similarity to be a valid reason to compare systems and try to infer whether or not they reflect the same underlying reality.

Having said that, science is primarily an attempt to produce a series of metaphors, that they call natural laws. What else is it?
I suspect your answer may involve the words 'Truth', 'Search for', and 'Objective', in which case we will just have to agree to disagree.
 
 
Salamander
13:40 / 17.04.03
Science and magick were not always split, in fact they have been the same thing in human history for longer than they haven't. What we may be seeing is not science producing metaphors that agree with magick, but producing experiments and results that are indestinguishable from magick. This then would be a technology of consciousness, a paradigm in which psychology and physics finally reunify, the grand theory of most things if you will.
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:41 / 17.04.03
Quantum, all the things you mention break down above the microscopic. Its not that there isn't any similarity, more that you are picking and choosing which bits you like and ignoring the bits you find inconvenient. The things you mention have similarity to magickal ideas, sure. But *prove* magick?

Having said that, science is primarily an attempt to produce a series of metaphors, that they call natural laws. What else is it?
I suspect your answer may involve the words 'Truth', 'Search for', and 'Objective'


Not at all. Science isn't about truth. It is about metaphors, yes, but that fails to distinguish it from many other disciplines. What really makes science different is empirical adequacy and predictive power of models. You can call that a metaphor (and it is, in a way, but it is also more). To ignore that is to ignore exactly those parts that distinguish science from anything else.

If you think empirical adequacy is simply another metaphor - as I suspect you do - then you are right, we have to agree to disagree. In my view, mechanical flight and the theory behind it differs from other potential stories and metaphors about flight. Just as an atlas is different in nature from the map in a fantasy novel. It is trendy to deny this, though I've yet to see anyone demonstrate this through action rather than words.
 
 
LVX23
17:48 / 17.04.03
To reiterate a few points here...

Quantum Mechanics generally only applies to scales around the range of the Planck Constant (i.e. really fucking small). Granted, there are similarities between behaviors in the sub-atomic realm and in the aetheric realm, but I don't think that the math of QM will ever "prove" magick, nor should it. The two should probably be regarded as complimentary (though I still suspect that mind has access to the quantum level). My personal feeling is that a mathematical "proof" of magick would seriously limit its effectiveness.

The primary impetus of science is 1) to understand, and 2) to predict. The move away from Alchemy to Chemistry signalled the dominance of predictive, quantifiable models applicable to the material world. Science became less about working with unversal principles of God for the benefit of the alchemist, and more about manipulating matter for the benefit of the species (or at least some of them). The theories may be metaphors, but they work really well.

The "success" of Quantum Mechanics has been measured not so much in its ability to model reality (because it can't adequately model the reality we all currently live in), but moreso in it's applicability to electrical engineering and information systems (i.e. in it's material applications - its products).
 
 
Salamander
01:58 / 18.04.03
But if the methode is science, the aim, religion, shouldn't we move toward a theory of magick the leads to understanding and predictability? Axioms do not limit mathematics but give it a set of clearly defined rails to run on as in a track. We must have the courage to accept a theory and then discard it, as the scientist does, or is expected too anyway.
 
 
—| x |—
06:37 / 18.04.03
Yeesh, lots going on here…

From what I’ve said before, it should be apparent that I am onboard with LVX and Lurid insofar as science is not in a position to give proof to magick, nor vice-versa. Each of these exists in a box, and while it might well be that there are not two boxes, but one, both have their own methods for interacting with the contents of that box. In other words, there is no sense in saying that one validates the other—how can they? It would be much like saying that Buddhism validates Christianity.

As Lurid wrote, “every movement likes to claim that science *proves* them correct. From right wing economists to social planners to food companies,” and this is exactly the problem. What can science “prove” as correct that lies outside the domain of the scientific endeavour? Nothing. The proofs of science fall within the domain of science—are derivative of its own methods. In the same way, the proofs of magick fall within the domain of magick and are derivative of its own methods. The mistake is in thinking that “proof” is the equivalent of “truth”: it’s not.

Proofs rely on accepted methods, and by following an accepted method we can generate something that is consistent with the premises from which we started. Like LVX said, “Algebra is entirely consistent within algebra, just as Thelema is entirely consistent within Thelema.” Put differently, neither science, like Lurid notes, nor magick is about truth, but each involves methods peculiar to its own endeavours, and it is these methods which yield further information which is consistent with its presuppositions—if the information is inconsistent, then either the method needs work, or the assumptions do. But none of this is truth. So what’s truth? To quote Hegel:

“…truth therefore includes the negative also, what would be called the false, if it could be regarded as something from which one might abstract…The True is thus the Bacchanalian revel in which no member is not drunk; yet because each member collapses as soon as he drops out, the revel is just as much transparent and simple repose.” (The Phenomenology of Spirit, trans. A.V. Miller)

In other words, truth is not mere consistency of information derived from method peculiar to presuppositions—truth makes room within itself for the inconsistent as well as the consistent: it is the active drunken revelry and the passive sobering calm.

Bearing this in mind, I feel that claiming to know that the effects of quantum mechanics are limited to very small scales is merely placating knowledge—a way to ensure oneself and others that, while life in the subatomic world is quite bizarre, around here its merely business as usual: stay calm, stay secure, stay safe. Such knowledge cannot be truth because it has no room for inconsistency. Moreover, it seems that this T-Duality (see above)—an apparent consistency derived from the premises of current scientific thought via science’s methods—puts these sorts of reassuring utterances by the wayside: the universe looks the same at both large and small scales. Thus, instead of perpetuating a habitual sense of “that never happens around here,” start attempting to see how these things do occur right here in your own neighbourhood.

Now let’s take a moment to consider reduction. Nobel laureate Eugene Wigner states: “It was not possible to formulate the laws of quantum mechanics in a fully consistent way without reference to consciousness.” So where does reduction get us? Harold J. Morowitz illustrates it quite well in the article “Rediscovering the Mind” (reprinted in The Mind’s I, Hofstadter and Dennett):

First, the human mind, including consciousness and reflective thought, can be explained by activities of the central nervous system, which, in turn, can be reduced to the biological structure and function of that physiological system. Second, biological phenomena at all levels can be totally understood in terms of atomic physics, that is, through the action and interaction of the component atoms of carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, and so forth. Third and last, atomic physics, which is now understood most fully by means of quantum mechanics, must be formulated with the mind as a primitive component of the system.

This, for sure, is a rough sketch, but it does lead us to ask, “What is reduction really?” Well, it appears as nothing more than a circle. Or, as Charlie Martin says, “there are no levels other than the base level”: all these phenomena—subatomic, atomic, biological, psychological—are all manifestations in one and the same space! Thus, a persistent but inattentive reductionist who says that it all comes down to this (where ‘this’ is some fraction of the circle’s area, the focus of reductionism’s arc of attention) appears to be merely unaware of the circle, or else, self-deceptive. In either case, we do not have to accept fractured spaces with their accompanying foci. So, keeping in mind that reductionism appears to lead to a circle, is there any real difference between reductionism and holism?

Holistically Renormalizing Reductive Holograms.

Or How Overcoming Fragmentation is a Selfish Affair.

Or {8, 9 / 9, 8 ; 17 / 17; 8 / 8; 7}

I don’t know if science and magick have really ever been separate. I mean, it might be that the languages of science and magick have always been pointing to the “same thing-beyond-words.” Let’s briefly consider alchemy and chemistry. Alchemy appears as a structured method whose aim is to bring about the alchemist’s union with creation via the creator. In other words, it provided, through its language, a method by which to experience something beyond words: something not describable through its language. Chemistry, in a similar fashion, appears as a structured method whose aim is to go beyond itself—to get at something not describable in its language—by seeking to understand the forces that underlie the interaction of elements. To do so, the language of chemistry concedes to the language of physics—and as we’ve seen, this leads us into the circle, right? In both alchemy and chemistry there is language that points towards forces outside of itself as a discipline, something beyond its own words. Now, aren’t these “forces” essentially the same thing, the same force? Aren’t both an attempt to delve into the mystery that lies beyond, to come to terms with the enigma of existence?

While it might be correct to think that the rise of rationalism, with all that accompanied it, also created a split between magick and science, or religion and science for that matter, is this really the case? Or is it merely a matter of how people have decided to divide themselves according to which methods they will use to investigate their interactions with the contents of a box with the hope of discovering, understanding, and participating in the unknown force behind these interactions? And so here is the metaphor of the diamond in a holographic universe.

The Absolute, if there is such a thing, is taken to be a multifaceted diamond—that is our premise. Accordingly, each facet of the diamond is taken to be a point of view: a little corner that makes sense, relative to a few other facets—but certainly not the majority (there are quite a few, I think we’d agree)—and in a fractured relationship with the Absolute; this latter is to say that the relation of a few facets, which would amount to the composite of our view, gives a distorted experience of the Absolute. So, we see the sense of LVX’s, “two levels: 1) the fragmentation of disciplines, such as Science and Magick, and 2) the fragmented nature of human analysis of the Absolute.” I would also add a third level, bearing in mind that we needn’t accept that there are ‘levels’, 3) the fragmentation of the Ego in its analysis of Self. To put this in perspective, I am saying that the fragmentation of the Absolute is a function of the different points of view or disciplines which comprise human analysis of the Absolute, and that these differing points of view are directly related to the Ego in its fractured sense of Self.

Adopting the holographic model, ideally, every part contains the picture of the whole. While we have noted that generally the parts reveal a “fuzzier” image of the whole, is this really a function of the “part to whole” relationship, or does it appear to be more of a function of memory that believes that there are parts separate from the whole? In other words, as long as we adopt a privileged vantage point—a facet or group of facets or some part of the hologram—and continue to relate this point to other view points, or other facets of the holographic structure, aren’t we really in the process of continually distorting our relation to the Absolute as opposed to clarifying it? Can the Ego understand the Self by fracturing itself into an ever increasing web of facets, an ever accumulating stock of metaphors?

This isn’t to say that we shouldn’t try to expand our knowledge with acceptance and open-mindedness to other facets, but more realize that in knowledge there is memory, which is thought, and it is thought that sees through facets, that blurs the Absolute that is embedded as a whole in each part. In the perfect hologram the diamond appears to itself—the Self appears to itself. In other words, it seems as if the facets are constructions of Ego, and if the Ego is to directly experience the Absolute, then it has to see without its facets, see without memory, without thought. But don’t take my word for it, look at yourself: observe how your thoughts are products of memory and observe the fragmentation of your mind. Are you able to see the mechanisms at work that keep the Ego fragmented? Are not the mechanisms involved in this business of facets?

Putting this differently, there is no method for experiencing the Absolute, for seeing the diamond as a whole: method is based in memory and implies consistency, which in turn implies harmony amongst facets; i.e., method appears to create and affirm facets. As long as there are facets, which imply difference, we cannot experience the Absolute without distortion. The Self does not appear to the fragmented mind; thus, our passion needs to be directed at the Self, and it is in dissolving the fragmentation of the Ego that we will experience our True Self.

Perhaps this is the importance of Silence.

*—shhheZ—*
 
 
Kamal Smith
14:17 / 18.04.03
Whatever happened to sticking nails in sheep's hearts and burying bottles of piss, eh? Those were the days, none of this high falutin' bollocks...
 
 
Salamander
16:19 / 18.04.03
Even so, I'm not intrested in Truth, I'm interested in truth. If a scientist were to say that he had developed a methode to make it rain, and then explained his experiment first by analogy of the hologram, and then gave a field model of his experiment, then his data on his results, then published it so others could try it, would he be a scientist or a bloddy witch doctor, BURN HIM! Anyway, what would this mean, would science if his theories and experiments were excepted (never mind the pill that would be) be stumbling into magick, or would this asshole have accedently become a magician? If our science becomes so advanced that it becomes indestinguishable from magick, are we primitives again? Or are we at the other end of the technology arc? Oh by the way, this hypothetical scientist is actually Wilhelm Riech, and he was sent to jail for being a bloody witch doctor.
 
 
Salamander
16:22 / 18.04.03
P.S.> W.H. did not explain his science by the hologram, but by orgonic fields, which of course I'm sure many are at least familiar.
 
 
LVX23
16:31 / 18.04.03
Great post, eZ!

el Zilcho wrote:
As long as there are facets, which imply difference, we cannot experience the Absolute without distortion. The Self does not appear to the fragmented mind; thus, our passion needs to be directed at the Self, and it is in dissolving the fragmentation of the Ego that we will experience our True Self.


And this is the core of esotericism, the union of opposites. The Tree of Life exists in some ways as a reflection of the Self. Harmonizing the aspects of the Ruach around the Sun prepares the aspirant for the leap into the Abyss, where all knowledge is challenged and shown as simply a facet, or a reflection, of the Absolute. The Absolute - the Hologram - can only be fully apprehended by merging into it completely, by becoming the Absolute, the OverSelf.

Each facet is like a puzzle piece - gather them together, unite them and the whole picture begins to emerge. To subjugate all paths to the proofs of Science is to neglect the irrational and inexplicable mysteries of Creation. Order cannot exist without Chaos.
 
 
LVX23
18:33 / 22.04.03
So to return to the other half of Quantum's original post:

That's known in occult circles as the principle of Contagion "Once together always together".

What other magickal laws do we feel are important to defining our practice?
 
  

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