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Robert Anton Wilson's Quantum Psychology

 
 
Professor Silly
17:06 / 09.04.03
I'd like to start up some work with Quantum Psychology, which requires a group-working environment. Anyone else interested? If we can get five people (including me) then I say we go for it--maybe a chapter per week?

I'm even willing to type the information in directly or provide links to my own website if not everyone has the book in question.

I'm in...anyone else?
 
 
The Falcon
18:31 / 09.04.03
My interest is piqued, at any rate.

Don't use the e-mail on my profile, but this one: thefalconer@globalfrequency.org

I know zip about Quantum Psychology, btw, but as you can see in the Wilson thread in Books, have read only Illuminatus! by him
 
 
Tamayyurt
18:58 / 09.04.03
I'm interested but what exactly did you have in mind?
 
 
reFLUX
19:48 / 09.04.03
anything that gets me closer to reading Quantum Psychology is great. but i've never read it so i don't know what it's about. well?
 
 
Professor Silly
21:19 / 09.04.03
Alright then, here we go:

One

A Parable About a Parable

A young American named Simon Moon, studying Zen in the Zendo (Zen School) at the new Old Lompoc House in Lompoc, California, made the mistake of reading Franz Kafka's The Trial. This sinister novel, combined with Zen training, proved too much for poor Simon. He became obsessed, intellectually and emotionally, with the strange parable about the door of the Law which Kafka inserts near the end of his story. Simon found Kafka's fable so disturbing, indeed, that it ruined his meditations, scattered his wits, and distracted him from his study of the Sutras.
Somewhat condensed, Kafka's parable goes as follows:
A man comes to the door of the Law, seeking admittance. The guard refused to allow him to pass the door, but says that if he waits long enough, maybe, someday in the uncertain future, he might gain admittance. The man waits and waits and grows older; he tries to bribe the guard, who takes his money but still refuses to let him through the door; the man sells all his possessions to get money to offer more bribes, which the guard accepts--but still does not allow him to enter. The guard always explains, on taking ezch new bribe, "I only do this so that you will not abandon hope entirely."
Eventually, the man becomes old and ill, and knows that he will soon die. In his last few moments he summons the energy to ask a question that has puzzed him over the years. "I have been told," he says to the guard, "that the Law exists for all. Why then does it happen that, in all the years I have sat here waiting, nobody else has ever come to the door of the Law?"
"This door," the guard says, "has been made only for you. And now I am going to close it forever." And he slams the door as the man dies.
The more Simon brooded on this allegory, or joke, or puzzle, the more he felt that he could never understand Zen until he first understood this strange tale. If the door existed only for that man, why could he not enter? If the builders posted a guard to keep the man out, why did they also leave the door temptingly open? Why did the guard close the previously open door, when the man had become too old to attempt to rush past him and enter? Did the Buddhist doctrine of dharma (law) have anything in common with this parable?
Did the door of the Law represent the Byzantine bureaucracy that exists in vurtually every modern government, making the whole story a political satire, such as a minor bureaucrat like Kafka might have devised in his subversive off-duty hours? Or did the Law represent God, as some commentators claim, and, in the case, did Kafka intend to parody religion or to defend its divine Mystery obliquely? Did the guard who took bribes but gave nothing but empty hope in return represent the clergy, or the human intellect in general, always feasting on shadows in the absence of real Final Answers?
Eventually, near breakdown from sheer mental fatigue, Simon went to hs roshi (Zen teacher) and told Kafka's story of the man who waited at the door of the Law--the door that existed only for him but would not admit him, and was closed when death would no longer allow him to enter. "Please," Simon begged, "explain this Dark Parable to me."
"I will explain it," the roshi said, "if you will follow me into the meditation hall."
Simon followed the teacher to the door of the meditation hall. When they got there, the teacher stepped inside quickly, turned, and slammed the door in Simon's face.
At that moment, Simon experienced Awakening.

Exercizes

1. Let every member of the group try to explain to interpret Kafka's parable and the Zen Master's response.
2. Observe whether a consensus emerges from this discussion or each person finds a personal and unique meaning.


...well that's chapter one--I have my wife returning soon, so I'll post some ideas on Friday....

Let's Rock!
 
 
grant
21:40 / 09.04.03
Administrative question: why is this in Creation and not Magick?
It seems right up Magick's alley.
 
 
Optimistic
21:44 / 09.04.03
Thank you thank you thank you...
 
 
Hero_Zero
04:27 / 11.04.03
I'm up for this group discussion. I've owned Quantam Psychology for a year now, but alas it's just been sitting on my bookself. Mostly because of the group exercizes. Let me ponder the parable for a bit and I'll post my reply within a couple of days. And I agree with Grant this might get more attention in the Magick area.
 
 
Professor Silly
16:10 / 11.04.03
(well, I put it here because it requires participation...how would we move it?)


I wonder where this parable happens. It seems unlikely that anyone has actually built a door for this one person...so I would guess it all happens within the man himself. If we go with such an assumption, then we could assume the guard represents some conservative part of the man's own psyche. This begs the question: why wouldn't this man allow himself to come to truth?

I suppose we would have to ask the author to get any kind of definitive answer. Any guess I make, however educated or thought out, represents as much of a creative effort as the original writing. The chances of me figuring out every little nuance of the author's intention seems impossible. This doesn't mean I can't figure out some of the writer's ideas. All this boils down to one thing: Our individual interpretation can not be 100% correct and most likely won't be 100% wrong--instead each interpretation will fall somewhere in the middle (one might interject ideas that fit and yet never occured to the author). Any assumption that this has one interpretation seems rigid and dogmatic...and I think the Roshi saw this mistake in Simon.

Simon's anguish, like the man at Truth's door, came from within himself, and he allowed both the story and his Roshi to influence his reality. Slamming the door in his face would serve as a reminder that others do exist outside of his body and he can't know these others (or their intentions) the same way that he understands himself.
 
 
captain piss
16:47 / 11.04.03
Serendipitously enough, I've just started reading this again recently, and am keen to bang it against my head a bit more- will participate with thoughts
 
 
reFLUX
18:55 / 11.04.03
the man was free the whole time to just walk past the guard, it was only his acceptance of the guard as an authority figure which made him ask for admition into his own door. he never needed to ask. he did not learn so he died without ever going through the door. the message of the parable is, i believe, that we should only accept our own authority. the guard represented the 'guard' placed, and accepted, in his mind my societal norms and institution. he was free the whole time but did not allow himself to be free.
the Zen master shutting the door on Simon was showing him that anyone can enter the door even if it has been shut. Simon learnt his lesson and therefore reached enlightenment and 'passed through the door'.
 
 
reFLUX
18:55 / 11.04.03
we must allow ourselves to be free to be truely free.
 
 
Hero_Zero
05:15 / 15.04.03
I feel the door was a representation of the divine wisdom and love that everyone tries to grasp and find. But, somehow we made our own jailors, and put them in the pulpits or in front of the door. All this to keep us with the hope that someday we might find what it means to truly be spiritual and godlike. Or in the same manner trying to make exsistence twice as complicated with "The Law". The divine order writ by every religion that requires us to be pure, to follow to not question.

And when the young monk found his awakening with the door slammed shut in his face ? I feel he realized that the jailor/gaurd was just a quasi-lawmaker to tell him where enlightenment was. Once the door was in front of his face he realized he could just open it himself.
 
 
Hero_Zero
05:20 / 15.04.03
Are we going to do all 22 excercizes in this one post - with subheaders, or in seperate posts with the chapter name ? Also I was thumbing through the book and realized (or forgot)that some of the chapters may be too big too post. Any way to resolve that for the peeps who dont own the book ?
 
 
Quantum
09:36 / 15.04.03
Start a new post for each exercise, no problem. Anyway everyone should own this book if only for the section on E-Prime, English with no 'is'.
The man who waited his whole life by the door was a fool, he should have run past the guard or gone to do something else with his life.
Simon was a fool to become obsessed with the Kafka story, he should have laughed at it.
I think the Roshi slammed the door in his face to give him 'closure' (I hate that word) and end his obsession with the story, freeing him to become awakened.
I think RAW poses the questions to show us that we can easily get caught up in trivia, and that all of our different interpretations are valid- there is no one truth.
 
 
captain piss
10:01 / 15.04.03
Door of the law parable
If you are constantly seeking something, investing all your hopes in understanding whatever it is (the secret of life or enlightenment or whatever), it remains closed off to you. The secret is to not struggle and strive for some elusive state but to just kind of 'be', perhaps?...
 
 
Professor Silly
16:12 / 16.04.03
I had totally missed the twenty-two chapters connection!!! How FOOLish of me.
 
 
Professor Silly
20:23 / 16.04.03
Focusing on exercize 2, I notice that we seem to have a couple different takes on the meaning of the parable. Most of us tend to focus on how the man could have gotten past the guard (i.e. walking/running past, ignoring its presence) while a couple have brought up the possibility of ignoring the door and focusing elsewhere.

Meanwhile, we seemed to have gotten unique views of the Roshi's response from each participant....

After reading these...my explanation seems silly and trivial. I suppose one could go "Zen-Matrix" route and say "There is no door." Just as the man in the parable could have unthought the guard (there is no guard) Simon should have thought "there is no answer" to the story. The fact that he persisted necessitated a lesson.
How does he know of this "door" that gets slammed in his face? He sees it, and he feels it slam into his body. Both of these sensations filter through his nervous system...so in essence the door seems as much a part of him as anything else.
 
 
Chaos is relative
22:58 / 20.04.03
This seems an allegory to teach one the hopelessness of desire. Simon reached a state of awakeneing when he was left to himself with no desire but to understand. The door being slammed in the old man's face could represent his failure, misplacement of energy, coming to it's inevitable conclusion. The door could have been imagined by him, just as our daily lives could be imagined by us, or me, or whatever is interacting here. Obviously the door did not exist for anyone else. Simon, on the other hand, probably came to his own conclusion by experiencing the situation first hand. Who knows what kind of awakening he may have experienced. Perhaps the loud noise of the door slamming occurred simultaneously with some other noise which woke him from the door parable dream where he found himself at home in his bed.
 
 
The Falcon
00:39 / 21.04.03
My interpretations are too similar to those already here, so perhaps I've derived the lesson "Think of something different."

Which works both ways. The story of The Law has fascinated me since I read it in a Harold Bloom essay collection and, later, in the original, actually.

I like this being here, rather than in Magick, btw. And I think I may go and get Quantum Psychology from amazon.
 
 
The Falcon
01:18 / 21.04.03
Only it is in the Magick. OOooOOoo.
 
 
Hero_Zero
03:37 / 25.04.03
For the second part of the excercize I dont think there is a running paradigm. Some may be similar i.e. ignore the guard, go past him, there is no door etc. I think the most interesting part is that even though there are similar thought's it seems to me each is unique to itself.

On that note when does lesson 2 start ?
 
 
Professor Silly
14:05 / 28.04.03
I'm in the process of typing up chapter two off line--I will post as soon as I can....
 
 
El Guapo
17:50 / 17.04.04
If anyone is interested in the Denver metro area is interested in phsically meeting to work through Quantum Psychology, and then hopefully moving on to Korzybski's "Science and Sanity" and NLP training, drop me a line at: jlee1232@hotmail.com. I envision a June 1st start date.
 
 
---
18:46 / 17.04.04
The door parable, the man spent his whole life trying to get through the door but it was useless from the outset. He was in the wrong place all the time, the truth was already inside him.
 
 
The Prince of All Lies
21:03 / 17.04.04
there's a part of the parable that's missing in RAW's explanation: that the guard tells the man that even if he could get through the door, there were a lot of other doors with guards, each more powerful than the previous one..or something like that.
My personal opinion on the parable is that one of its meanings is to not be restrained by other's beliefs (The Law, consensual reality, religions, politics). When the man gives all his possessions away and still doesn't get to go through, I think it could be that it doesn't matter if you shave your head and enter a convent, or lead an exemplary life, that won't get you closer to understanding, nirvana, satori or whatever you call it, since those aren't things you can attain, they're already a part of you.
 
 
Salamander
05:39 / 18.04.04
I think that the gaurd of the door represents the government, the clergy and all that. The door seems from the context to be one that leads inside. And what is inside? Nothing, or more stupid doors, the point I'm trying to make is that to go inside the house of the law is a waste of time, who cares. The gaurd is selling a scam, there's nothing in the building, the fool is already outside. The parable mearly points out the foolishness of the man for so others may avoid it, or at least thats what it says to me. The monk, in seeing that Simon was wasteing valuable time he could have spent meditating, decided to pull that little stunt that mimicked the end of the fools life, and Simon was awakened, why I can't guess.
 
 
C.Elseware
14:28 / 18.04.04
Sometimes there isn't a meaning. It's possible that kafka wrote the story just to be deliberately impossible to understand. It's human nature to see patterns in the world, and act on those patterns. That's how we got science and stuff. Also how we get supersitition.

Simon believed in the answer. That there was an answer. I suspect that there isn't an answer, a simple answer, to the ultimate question of life, the universe and everything. It's possilble that the answer would be more complicated than the universe itself.

For all we know kafka wrote the story and made some mistakes in the plot, then decided he liked it that way and left it.

Good zen stories are ones you just can't get a grip on, from any angle your brain just slides off them again. They SEEM like they should make sense but they don't, going round and round on one riddle will get your brain into a different mode.

The man in the story never really considers why he wants to go through the door. It's a given. It could be seen as a trap or an excuse to not do something else with his life.

Damn. Now I have a headache. I hope you're happy. </passive></aggressive>
 
 
xenosss
18:56 / 20.04.04
The full parable:

Before the Law stands a doorkeeper. To this doorkeeper there comes a man from the country and prays for admittance to the Law. But the doorkeeper says that he cannot grant admittance at the moment. The man thinks it over and then asks if he will be allowed in later. "It is possible," says the doorkeeper, "but not at the moment." Since the gate stands open, as usual, and the doorkeeper steps to one side, the man stoops to peer through the gateway into the interior. Observing that, the doorkeeper laughs and says: "If you are so drawn to it, just try to go in despite my veto. But take note: I am powerful. And I am only the least of the doorkeepers. From hall to hall there is one doorkeeper after another, each more powerful than the last. The third doorkeeper is already so terrible that even I cannot bear to look at him." These are difficulties the man from the country has not expected; the Law, he thinks, should surely be accessible at all times and to everyone, but as he now takes a closer look at the doorkeeper in his fur coat, with his big sharp nose and long, thin, black Tartar beard, he decides that it is better to wait until he gets permission to enter. The doorkeeper gives him a stool and lets him sit down at one side of the door. There he sits for days and years. He makes many attempts to be admitted, and wearies the doorkeeper by his importunity. The doorkeeper frequently has little intervies with him, asking him questions about his home and many other things, but the questions are put indifferently, as great lords put them, and always finish with the statement that he cannot be let in yet. The man, who has furnished himself with many things for his journey, sacrifices all he has, however valuable, to bribe the doorkeeper. The doorkeeper accepts everything, but always with the remark: "I am only taking it to keep you from thinking you have omitted anything." During these many years the man fixes his attention almost continuously on the doorkeeper. He forgets the other doorkeepers, and this first one seems to him the sole obstacle preventing access to the Law. He curses his bad luck, in his early years boldly and loudly; later, as he grows old, he only grumbles to himself. He becomes childish, and since in his yearlong contemplation of the doorkeeper he has come to know even the fleas in his fur collar, he begs the fleas as well to help him and to change the doorkeeper's mind. At length his eyesight begins to fail, and he does not know whether the world is really darker or whether his eyes are only deceiving him. Yet in his darkness he is now aware of a radiance that streams inextinguishably from the gateway of the Law. Now he has not very long to live. Before he dies, all his experiences in these long years gather themselves in his head to one point, a question he has not yet asked the doorkeeper. He waves him nearer, since he can no longer raise his stiffening body. The doorkeeper has to bend low toward him, for the difference in height between them has altered much to the man's disadvantage. "What do you want to know now?" asks the doorkeeper; "you are insatiable." "Everyone strives to reach the Law," says the man, "so how does it happen that for all these many years no one but myself has ever begged for admittance?" The doorkeeper recognizes that the man has reached his end, and, to let his failing senses catch the words, roars in his ear: "No one else could ever be admitted here, since this gate was made only for you. I am now going to shut it."

I think the difficulty in considering the parable is in how we should consider it. From RAW's summarization and in the context of the book, that it is saying we should look beyond ourselves and our restrictions is most likely. "There is no guard" and all that.

However, this parable was originally presented in Kafka's book The Trial. I don't know if anyone else has read the book, but everytime I think about what the parable is trying to say I am thinking from a different perspective. To me, the parable shows how ineffective we all are in the face of the law. No matter how hard we try, we will never have access to it. That's what The Trial is basically about. A man is accused of a crime he did not commit, attempts (failingly) to clear his name, and is ultimately put to death, all after a long ordeal of trials and hearings.

So, should we think about this only from a philosophical perspective or from a political satire perspective?
 
 
farseer /pokes out an i
19:11 / 20.04.04
Ah, sweet Quantum Psychology. I just did this with a few friends a few months back (we then moved onto HHG2tG Radio Plays and Crowley's 8 lectures on yoga.)

BTW, interestingly "Simon Moon" is a major character in RAW's "Historical Illuminatus Triology"...

1- The Law- the light at the end of the seemingly endless sets of doors and guardians, I presumed to be enlightenment. With that in mind, I imagined that the parable was a story of initiation; You've got to be the one who chooses to start down that path (walk past the guards, through the door, to the next set of guards/doors), You're the one who continues the intiation ('some initiations never end'), and it's your decisions that make these changes. There isn't someone who will take your hand and walk you through the door of Law. You have to seek the light, and make the (sometimes difficult) decisions to keep on that path.
I see the door closing with his death as meaning "everyone has their own path to enlightenment. It is unique to each traveler. When he dies, no one else can approach the light through his door, and thus it closes with his death."
It's almost like a Khabbalistic journey up into the 'heavens'- there are different watchers, wardens, most/all of which are constructed, personal thoughtforms.
The awakening that Simon perceives is that his instructor cannot guide him through the door of Law, tell him each step to take upon the path. He's got to reach out and open that door himself- he has to put forth the effort, not rely upon someone else to do it for him.

2- The group I originally worked with eventually came to a consensus it was probably about enlightenment- I think- but we all had our own personal spins on how the tale exactly tells that lesson.
 
 
fir3sign
20:17 / 20.04.04
While The Door of Law can represent a number of things, the most resonant vibe I pick up has to do with my personal beliefs about legislation.

It would seem the nature of Law to create a barrier which no individual may transgress, however, that barrier exists illusory. The law acting as a negation of an idea, or the prohibition of an action, essentially limits a person's conception of what passes for acceptable in their own socio-political context. Hence the open door, entry by which is forbidden. Any individual is free to cross that (their own personal) threshhold, placing themselves outside of the realm of what is "legal". Of course, in the process they risk encountering enforcement, which carries the implication (treat) of negative consequence. In effect, this creates the impass in the mind of the governed.

In Kafka's story, the guard may even exist only in the realm of the protagonist's mind, thus acting as a phanthom inquisitor that exists as a parasite to the man's conscience; causing himself to cripple his own cognition.

If he were to push past the guard, or if Simon were to merely re-open the door, the would have done so in accordance with their "True Will", revealing to themselves the Law of Nature's God as opposed to the petty and cynical laws of man,

I think.
 
 
fir3sign
20:29 / 20.04.04
Also, (not) to nitpick, but Simon Moon's character occurs frequently in RAW's fiction. He is a major character in the Illuminatus Trilogy, as well as the Shcrodinger's Cat Trilogy. Seamus Muahden (translates to Simon Moon) appears as Simon's ancestor in the Historical Illuminatus Chronicles.
Though I'd recommend all of these books to readers of this forum, I would specifically recommend the Schrodinger's Cat Trilogy to anyone interested in Quantum Psychology, for in many ways it seems to illustrate the key concepts in narritive, and appears to be a fit and entertaining companion volume.
 
 
SteppersFan
12:44 / 21.04.04
I did this with a group a few years ago.

It's* very good stuff. Will stay with you for life.

But I reckon it's more HEAD than HEART, more air than earth. Might be a limitation for some people.

* hey, I can pick up and drop e-prime whenever I want to!
 
 
Sekhmet
12:58 / 21.04.04
Erm... (nitpick) Seamus Moon, aka James Moon, was the character in the Historical Illuminatus. Presumably an ancestor of Simon's, but not the same guy. (Sorry, just finished reading those like two weeks ago, so it's fresh on my mind.) (/nitpick)

I like the Enlightenment angle, but I think this is probably because of the way RAW uses the story... my understanding of the tale in which Kafka embedded this little gem makes me think he meant something entirely different when he wrote it... does the artist's original intention have any relevance to the audience's symbolic interpretation of his work?...
 
  
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