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The war and symbolism

sleazenation

13:44 / 09.04.03

Just watching a live feed from the BBC on the liberation of Baghdad

The focus currently appears to be the dismantling of a statue of Saddam Hussain. At first American troops seemed happy to sit back, but now they are playing an actiive role - tying a noose round the statue's neck ready to pull it over with their armored vehicle. At one moment a soldier draped the stars and stripes over the statue's head, but this was quickly replaced with an Iraqi flag.

So, thoughts and comments on this symbolismwhat it augers for the future of Iraq and what hopes and fears people have for the post sadam era...

Smoothly

13:50 / 09.04.03

Innocent Iraqis being killed by falling statues has got to be a bit of a concern.

Regrettable Juvenilia

14:10 / 09.04.03

Is this thread intended to talk generally about the prospects for post-Saddam Iraq as well? I for one am pleased to see that the US - sorry, 'Coalition' - has made such a wise, unpartisan and diplomatic choice in appointing Jay Garner, former US General, weapons maker, Zionist, and alleged personal friend of both Rumsfield and Ariel Sharon, to run Iraq in the immediate aftermath of the presumed Coalition victory...

Quantum

15:25 / 09.04.03

At least their foreign policy is consistent...

We're The Great Old Ones Now

15:40 / 09.04.03

The marines took the flag down in a hurry - I'm guessing they were told to. It looked like Guantanamo Bay. This appears to be an attempt to mimic the tearing down of the Berlin Wall/Statues of Lenin and Stalin in the former USSR - though obviously, it's also intended as a message to the effect that this time they're serious, they won't be nipping off back to PI and leaving the Shia to get murdered.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

15:41 / 09.04.03

And Flyboy, I know you meant 'zionist' in the strictest sense, but I really don't think it's a very good term to use.

Baz Auckland

17:49 / 09.04.03

Cheney said today that Hussein has "gone the way of other failed dictators like Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, and [insert Romanian C~~~]"

Which is an odd statement, since Lenin and Stalin both died in power...

Oops. I meant to post this in this thread, not the other:

I lost the link and can't find it, but Cheney said today that the UN can help pay for aid, but it won't get any say in the government. Gah. An another spokesperson said Syria, Iran and N.Korea should take this as an examlple, and bloody Cheney again said that "this was one of the most spectacular campaigns."

Cherry Bomb

08:43 / 10.04.03

Drink! Someone said "zionist"!

Well, I for one am wondering how the war can actually be "over" and "won" when we don't know where Saddaam Hussein is.

As far as the imagery goes, it was pretty powerful, and it did remind me of the fall of the Berlin Wall, the revolutions of the late 80s etc. - which I'm sure is what it was meant to do. It was meant to serve the same message to whatever is left of Sadaam's regime that the pictures of US soldiers relaxing in Sadaam's palace sent - "You're finished, Sadaam."

Thinking about the Berlin wall, the one nagging feeling I had in the back of my mind watching the footage is that this ISN'T like that because the people did it. I don't know if anyone read this article in yesterday's Guardian, but that is the reality of the war, regardless of what the propaganda masters would like you to think.

Cherry Bomb

08:45 / 10.04.03

Sorry - lost the link some how. Here is the url: http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,932777,00.html

Baz Auckland

09:51 / 10.04.03

There was another good quote yesterday saying that although everyone's happy Saddam is gone, it doesn't mean they're happy you're here to run the country.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

10:05 / 10.04.03

There's a thread here about rebuilding which might be of interest in this discussion.

Saveloy

10:23 / 10.04.03

"Thinking about the Berlin wall, the one nagging feeling I had in the back of my mind watching the footage is that this ISN'T like that because the people did it."

The people did the Berlin wall or the people did the statue?

Cherry Bomb

10:37 / 10.04.03

I thought it was the people. But look! Here's a nice picture!!

Saveloy

10:51 / 10.04.03

I'm probably being pedantic again, but the people (some Iraqi people, anyway) did have a go at the statue first, using sledgehammers on the concrete base (at least that's how I saw it portrayed on the reports I caught). The marines sped the process up.

Interesting that the Iraqi flag was removed before the statue was pulled down, presumably to avoid symbolic association of flag with collapse.

Phex: Dorset Doom

12:38 / 10.04.03

The great part was a little later, when the liberated Iraqis decided to joyride Saddam's head around Baghdad

Mister Six, whom all the girls

15:37 / 10.04.03

Interesting page that depicts the media event toppling of the statue and who was flown in to attend, with picturss.

http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/04/1598451.php

grant

19:31 / 10.04.03

Via the excellent Talking Points Memo:

BBC reports:: Baghdad :: Paul Wood :: 0521GMT

We've just learned from the US marines that the US flag that was put on the face of Saddam yesterday - it was replaced by an Iraqi flag when the people shouted for that - was the flag that was flying over the Pentagon on September 11.

For a lot of the American marines, they think this war is all about defeating terrorism, they will tell you that over and over again. There is also a connection in the minds of the American public between the regime of Saddam and what happened on September 11, and apparently the flag that was draped over this face was flying over the pentagon when the plane crashed into it.

bio k9

19:54 / 10.04.03

There was a bit on the news last night about how the MOAB testing was just a psychological tool to help intimidate the Iraqi soldiers/regime.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

19:57 / 10.04.03

grant...

That's just...

Fuck.

Cherry Bomb

09:36 / 11.04.03

Information Clearing House take on it. Another article that claims the event was staged by the U.S.

A wide angle shot in which you can see the whole of Fardus Square (conveniently located just opposite the Palestine Hotel where the international media are based), and the presence of at most around 200 people – most of them US troops (note the tanks and armored vehicles) and assembled journalists.

The BBC website had the honesty to say that "dozens" of Iraqis were involved, but this grain of truth was swamped by the overwhelming impression of mass joy. The radio and TV were even worse.

The masses are no doubt glad to see the back of Saddam Hussein, but this was a US Army propaganda coup, staged for the benefit of the same journalists it had bombed the day previously, and which the British media have swallowed hook line and sinker. Shame on them.

Jack Fear

12:52 / 11.04.03

A slightly different perspective--literally...

The statue pedestal is center right, and, as you canm see, it's not exactly thronged. And keep in mind that probably a third of what crowd there is, is journalists.

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