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Why Study Writing?

 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
10:43 / 09.04.03
I've been writing for a long time, and right now I'm staring down the barrel of a four-year university course studying American Literature with Creative Writing. I'm not posting specifically to ask whether creative writing can be taught, I'm sure I'll improve during my course, but whether the tuition I get, the networking etc. will justify taking a big chunk out of my young life when it may turn out that I'm writing unpublishable bullshit.
Another concern is whether publishers (that is, the right kind of publishers) are going to want to read something by a 'classically trained' author as opposed to a self-taught, street-level punk-style writer.
Are any 'lithers on a course like mine or have taken one in the past? What did you feel you gained from it and what opportunities did it open up for you?

(P.S anybody over-analyzing the spelling and grammar in my post needs to take a good long look at their lives.)
 
 
Icicle
11:18 / 09.04.03
I'm not on a creative writing course, but I'd thought I'd just post anyway. You say you're worried that after four years that all you might come out with is unpublishable bullshit, but isn't that just a bit of self-doubt, after all you've been writing for a while, and you're about to start a course in creative writing so you obviously think you might be quite good at it.
you also said tht you don't know whether publishers want a 'classicaly trained author' or a self taught one, but isn't it really a question of mediating between the two? everyone needs help in becoming a writer, some sort of influence from outside of themselves, the question is really what sort of writer you want to become, I find that if I'm being taught something that what I choose to take from it is often what is relevant to me, a way of enhancing my individuality.
I reckon that as long as you don't forget to focus on what you really want to be writing then the course can only help you.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
12:31 / 09.04.03
(P.S anybody over-analyzing the spelling and grammar in my post needs to take a good long look at their lives.)

Yeah. Because they're the ones who'll cut the bejesus out of your copy (and, indeed, besmirch your good name with much laughing and pointing at your misuse of the apostrophe, say). SO maybe you better be nice to 'em. Just a thought.

Subeditors. We are legion.

Publishers don't really care an arse about your training background. It's not about that: it's about consistency when you do submit, and about being able to write to spec, pretty much. All magazine/book work is to a certain extent about creating something that fits the vibe or mission statement or whatever it may be of the house that'll be publishing. I swear to you, if a nu-punk dadaist writer gets shitcanned, they'll soon adjust to writing heads for bus timetables or whatnot to get by - that's what pro writing is, to a certain extent. Can you, at the end of the day, do the job? And do it better than everyone else? That's what you need to answer. Anything that helps you towards that is a Good Thing.

You really need to be three things: timely, correct, and in step. That's it. (And yes, out-of-step is occasionally the new in step.)
 
 
Whisky Priestess
17:10 / 09.04.03
My insteps are just fine, thanks.

Are you by any chance doing this course at the University of East Anglia? If so, congratulations - it's a good course and you have done well to get in.

I've done a part-time 2 year writing course at Oxford and although half the class dropped out, I found it useful for 2 reasons:

1) You got homework every week and a deadline to produce it by. Writer's block my arse, you HAD to produce something, however crap, every week on time. A lesson in self-discipline.

2) You HAD to do three options - prose, poetry and drama (including screenwriting) no matter what option you'd got in on (mine was poetry). I had literally never written a short story or dramatic dialogue before I did this course, and it was particularly useful in stopping me making very elementary writing mistakes like over-writing. I finished the course in 2001 and since then I've won a couple of short story competitions and a playwriting prize.

In summary: creative writing course are useful not because they teach you how to write, but because they teahch you how not to - avoid cliche, imaginative laziness etc. and that's half the battle. If you have good teachers and especially good classmates it can be really useful for you and your writing. But mostly it should be damn good fun, so make sure it is.
 
 
grant
21:55 / 09.04.03
I'm with Whisky's #1.

Anything that *makes* you write is a good thing.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
12:34 / 10.04.03
Yeah, I am going to UEA (how the hell....?) From what you say about the Oxford course it sounds pretty similar. I will be doing modules in poetry, even though my audition piece was prose, and there's going to be modules in screenwriting. I've never written poetry beyond miserablist pre-pubescent crap (another burst of self-doubt) and the nearest I've got to screen or stage writing is an abortive attempt at a graphic novel script. I guess that's where the discipline part comes in, because I definitely need to increase my productivity, having only written about ten decent pages of anything this year.
Thanks for your posts.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
20:09 / 10.04.03
I've been told so often that it's now totally internalised: what separates the pros from the amateurs is discipline.

You write even when it's no fun. You write when you'd rather be sunbathing. You write when you'd rather be having sex. You write when you're grieving and when you're so happy you can barely stop laughing. You wake up in the middle of the night and you do get up and write it down, because it won't be there in the morning. You meet the deadlines and you do the work.

Anything which can help you with that is good. So too is anything which gives you tools to pull yourself up by your own hair when you're in a rut and making the same stupid mistake over again because you're exhausted.

Writing is like flying. Writing is like pulling a tractor with your teeth.
 
 
at the scarwash
21:58 / 10.04.03
Writing is like wrestling alligators after they've already bitten off your arms and legs.
Creative writing courses are super damned useful because, as has been said, they aid in learning discipline, they provide a writer with silly tricks to spur ideas. They force you to work in genres you wouldn't usually, and take from those experiments techniques useful in your home turf (dialogue in my fiction got better after writing drama, word choice was expanded after writing a few wretched poems). But most importantly, Creative Writing studies yank the writer out of the vaccuum and thrust s/he/it into the fiery pits of criticism. People in workshops are strange. They all want everyone to read their work, so if someone's wasting everyone's time with crap writing, it can get mighty Christians and Lions. Ramble. Splat.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
00:29 / 11.04.03
How long, and what, have you been writing, out of interst, phex?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
09:41 / 11.04.03
All right, since everyone's gone positive, the counterpoint - taking the novel as a cypher for writing in general:

why on earth would you want to spend four years learning to write when you can write four novels in that time, and do some kind of job to keep your head above water?

There are texts on writing - from Stephen King's 'On Writing' to Robert McKee's 'Story' to Henry James and STC and Bukowski. There are novels whose style and construction are examplary - 'Friends of Eddie Coyle', 'Einstein's Dreams', 'Bleak House', and others which are briliant but flawed - 'Miss Smilla's Feeling for Snow', 'Fugitive Pieces'. Read them and learn - read everything and learn. No one can tell you what to do. You have to find your own voice.
 
 
Jack Fear
12:59 / 11.04.03
why on earth would you want to spend four years learning to write when you can write four novels in that time...

Same thing, isn't it? The process of learning to write and the process of writing are one and the same.
 
 
Jack Fear
13:03 / 11.04.03
But to answer the question more directly: as you yourself pointed out, Nick, the difference between pros and amateurs is discipline. And what you're really learning, in those four years, is the discipline: the demands of an academic schedule and environment impose it, and with luck you'll learn to internalize it.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
13:12 / 11.04.03
How long, and what, have you been writing, out of interst, phex?

I've been working on one novel for about three years now, it's up to around 160 pages and seems to be taking shape. I don't want to go into too many details, it's pretty likely that the finished (and hopefully published) book is going to be a lot different from how it is now. In terms of genre I suppose it's 'sci-fi', in that it's set in the future, but I've made a concerted effort to stamp out any space-opera or cyberpunk cliches. There's a lot of it that needs cutting, repositioning and rewriting but, fingers-crossed-knock-on-wood-pray-to-Jesus/Buddha/Muhammad, I'll be able to get it right. I made the elementary mistake of not thinking about where it was going and what I wanted to do, I didn't find my true voice, as Nick put it. Other than that there's a semi-autobiographical thing I've got going on the side which I used as my audition piece for my course. It seems to have a better good-to-crap ratio.
Oh, and thanks for the reading list Nick.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
13:32 / 11.04.03
Four words and a number: Robert Silverberg,Science Fiction 101

BTW if you're sending stuff to publishers/submitting chapters etc you'll be wanting to talk in terms of word count rather than page count, because the font could be tiny or the lines could be double spaced - i.e. the "page" is a moveable feast whereas word count is a constant. Sorry, you probably know that.

With ref to what Nick said:
I think the point of phex's degree is that it's not just in something generally perceived to be useless for finding a job as well as unteachable - it's also in American literature, so with a bit of further reading ze could probably get a teaching job if ze wanted ... or go into advertising, copywriting, the Civil Service, lion-taming, whatever.

So this degree is not just about "learning to write" which is, as Jack pointed out, more about reading and writing itself than learning theory or story structure or grammar etc. The degree, as I understand it, would have basically the same academic kudos as a straight English degree, with extra creative fun thrown in.

As to how useful this qualification will be for making you a novelist, I think that's up to you. If you make the most out of your teachers and peers in terms of learning what not to do and how to take criticism, that's very good prep for, say, submitting stuff to magazines and publishers and competitions.

But publishers and agents don't much care if you've got a degree in creative writing - they just want to know if your writing's any good. That said, UEA does have a very good rep for putting out good writers - although the MA course is the really famous one. Shame it's being taught by that terrible cunt Motion.

You might find the following things to be an advantage if you intend to make writing your career:

1) Contacts. If you're not related to a writer/agent/publisher, sleep with one. If you can't do that, schmooze one. Most of the teachers on your course are probably professionally involved in writing somehow - ask them what you want to know. Use them. Make contacts. Get them to tell you names of magazines that might like your stuff. Get them to write an introductory letter, even, or at least let you say that they sent you in your covering letter.

2) Rejection. It happens to everyone. Start liking the taste of door as it slams in your face. Ask out the prettiest girl on campus for practice. If she says no, you're already learning to cope with rejection. If she says yes, congrats - you have a gorgeous new girlfriend.

3) Discipline. If you're writing a novel, set yourself targets - say 5000 words per week. You can be flexible, you don't have to write every day, but hit your weekly target and mnake it a point of honour. This is very important: it's going to be your career, right?

4) Reading. Read everything you like and lots you don't. Anything can give you an idea or a cool phrase - plus reading kind of feels like work, but is fun.

5) Being pretty. Never underestimate the importance of a cute jacket photo. Did wonders for Zadie Smith. If you're not pretty, don't worry about it, (it could be worse - you could be wanting to be an actor) but if you are it's a nice plus.

6) Perseverance. Find magazines you like and start submitting. Do it now. Study the style and word length they like and for God's sake always send an SAE. Keep submitting until you get something in. After a couple of years, if you don't succeed, you are either submitting to the wrong market or your writing sucks. But if you're at UEA it's probably not the latter (Motion excepted).

That's all I can think of. I'll shut up now.
 
 
Icicle
10:52 / 12.04.03
I've just found out that I've been accepted on a creative writing course too! as I'd been rejected from all my other applications I'd given up hope so this is a brilliant surprise. It's an mphil at glasgow, anyone know anything about this course? It seems pretty good though I'm a bit disappointed as I just realised that the portfolio is only 25000 words when for all the others I had applied for you could write a full novel, but perhaps my writing's not really matured enough yet.
Also a bit disappointed that in the handbook it says that those that gain success afterwards are an 'unpredictable minority', a bit of a downer for my dreams of becoming famous...
But part of what motivated me to apply for these courses in the first place was this article in the guardian a while back for the best new young writers, I think it was at least half that had done creative writing MAs, so they've got to being doing something right, maybe improving skills or gaining contacts or a mixture of the two.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
17:32 / 12.04.03
Don't shut up know Whisk', I was getting some good notes ("Motion=Cunt" etc.) As for your point-by-point list:
1) Working on it.
2) Done, done and done. (Your psychic powers are improving: you guessed I was male AND that my romantic/sex life is a car wreck in a minefield)
3) I'll start monday. Promise.
4) Will do.
5) Hmm. I've been told I look, at best, like Ethan Hawke and at worst like Thom Yorke.
6) Coming up.
I checked out the Silverberg book on Amazon, it seems more like the kind of Sci-Fi I'm trying to get away from (K. Dick excepted, but then HE improved his productivity intra-nasally) but I'll check it out all the same.
 
 
Ariadne
10:09 / 14.04.03
The Glasgow course is supposed to be really good, Icicle - I'm jealous. I've wanted to do that for a while. James Kelman and Alisdair Gray are both involved and it's been doing well. Good luck. Are you doing it in one year or over two?
 
 
Icicle
10:44 / 14.04.03
Yeah, I've looked at their website and it does seem pretty good, I'm getting really excited!! I'm going to do it one year, I thought it would be best just to have one year, and really focus on it and nothing else. Do you write a lot yourself? maybe you should apply, I never really believed I'd get on it, but this gives me a lot of hope.
 
 
Ariadne
12:56 / 14.04.03
Well, living in London makes it a bit tricky! I .... well, I used to write quite a lot. Nowadays I'm a slacker, and I really must get my focus again.
 
 
Ariadne
13:56 / 14.04.03
Icicle, you out there? I've been trying to remember this all afternoon, and at last it's popped into my head:

Rachel Seiffert's The Dark Room was written while she was doing the Glasgow course. She wrote it as part of her coursework. This could be you next year, you never know.
 
 
Icicle
09:15 / 15.04.03
yeah, I've researched it a bit more now, it was shortlisted for the booker prize wasn't it. Have you read it? I'm reading Kelman's 'how late it was how late', it's really good, I guess if tutors like him can't help me become a published author then noone can!! I'm gradually getting over the shock of getting on the course and started a novel this morning,
you could always move! but then are there good courses in London, I know there's one at the Royal Holloway but I think Andrew Motion's moved there. Can't quite figure out how Motion managed to successfully teach other people to write when he can't even write himself!
 
 
Ariadne
09:24 / 15.04.03
Yeah, I've read it and liked it - it's kind of three short stories that link, rather than a straightforward novel, but it works.

And yes, I could always move. That option seemed a good idea after several glasses of wine last night but it all looks less simple this morning. And really, I have to start writing again before getting carried away with plans for joining courses.

Good luck anyway - to both Icicle and phex. Let us know how you get on.
 
  
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