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Underground > Art, Fashion & Design >

Black Tie? Is this up for interpretation?

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22:01 / 08.04.03

Black Tie = Dinner suit in my opinion, Tuxedo if your'e american. Bow Tie (real if poss.), cummerbund (if poss.) and the whole sha-bang trousers with a shiny stripe as well. That is what Black Tie means to me. So why is it that I'm hearing that people going to my school's spring ball (BLACK TIE EVENT) aren't dressing in "black tie". And are in fact, some of them, wearing smart shirt and trousers. Or just a normal suit, how hard is it to hire a D.J. for a special occasion. Why not invest in one? University parties require them. They are useful. I'm all up for artistic interpretation, but not blatant ignoring of the crucial 'Dinner Suit'. To what extent is interpretation acceptable?

22:20 / 08.04.03

Interpretation is usually possible if you are a big enough fish to get away with it.

No-one criticises Russell Crowe for not quite adhering to Black Tie correctly. You don't, OK? Or he'll bring along a legiona and slaughter your family.

By contrast, people who don't have this standing don't have a leg to stand on, as it were.

That said: the difference between "Black Tie Preferred" and "Black Tie" is important.

Also: good interpretation is worthwhile. "Interpretation" that's just lazy sucks ass. I've worn a DJ+black tshirt to various smart (not black tie) events and pulled it off most acceptably. It's all about context, though.

ONLY NICE THINGS

22:36 / 08.04.03

You're forgetting the variations allowed for students and graduates of Oxford, Cambridge, and Durham, also for clerics and members of highland regiments.

Outside that, black tie means tuxedo (if you must) or dinner jacket and trousers, with bow tie. Cummerbund is optional and may (should, IMHO - cummerbunds are invariably ill-fitting and tasteless things) be replaced by a waistcoat. if your invitation says "Black Tie", these things should be worn. If it says "Black Tie preferred", they should be but need not be. If it says "Black Tie Optional", they are appropriate but not expected. If it says "Black Tie Invited", then dress is a matter of personal choice. In any of these cases the host will be expected to treat with grace anyone attending in a dark business suit.

White dinner jackets are acceptable between May and September, but are outside tropical locales irremediably twatty and an absolute harlot to clean.

As to why your associates are failing to observe the dress code, assuming that none of the three accepted moderating terms has been applied to the invitation, I couldn't say. Perhaps they are not sufficiently invested in their school events to bother, which is graceless but may be understandable. Possibly they feel that the tyranny of formal wear is an unacceptable constraint on their liberty or finances.

22:48 / 08.04.03

am loving the use of the word 'twatty'. well done you

Tryphena Absent

22:58 / 08.04.03

What is the distinction between evening suit and tuxedo please? I've been informed on a number of occasions but have forgotten again.

ONLY NICE THINGS

09:36 / 09.04.03

A tuxedo is a normal-length (i.e. covering the hips) jacket, either single- or double-breated, with a satin lapel. I can't remember offhand whether the lapel is allowed to have a notch or peak lapel, but I think an unbroken lapel is standard - anyone? Bueller? Pockets are, IIRC, flap rather than besom - I could check the one in my wardrobe, but it would take a while to find.

So, the tuxedo is a very specific piece of evening dress, which has come by synecdoche to represent to Americans the idea of evening dress generally.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

12:19 / 09.04.03

God, you're scary. What variations are permitted to Oxford, Cambridge, and Durham?

ONLY NICE THINGS

14:09 / 09.04.03

Well, IIRC, academic subfusc can do duty for both black and white tie, so the variation for Oxford and presumably Cambridge, although it appears to have decommisioned academic subfusc would be white, non-pique shirt with mother-of-pearl or white studs (prolly), white bow tie, black lounge or evening suit or dark grey morning suit, depending on the time of the invitation. Oh, and gown.

Durham has unofficially adopted a sub-Oxonian subfusc; although its members are asked to wear "smart clothes" (grey or black suit, I think), for those situations in which academic dress would be expected, I imagine that something along the lines of Oxford subfusc would also be acceptable. And, of course, a cleric could substitute a dog collar for the white tie.

Oh, hang on, though...perhaps subfusc only functions as white tie, which would be counterintuitive but as such entirely in keeping.

17:16 / 09.04.03

Sometimes, sometimes Haus, just sometimes, you freak me the fuck out.

This, this, sweet Haus, is one of those times.

18:08 / 09.04.03

Further to our discussion about college characteristics some weeks ago, Haus, I was on the Oxford Tube last Saturday listening to some awful Oriel student bending someone's ear for the entire journey (mostly tales of how he gladhanded the Provost at his Valentine's Day party as far as I could tell), and at some point he revealed that at Oriel they wear black tie at Hall on Sundays. He described it as 'a nice little tradition'.

Personally I think subfusc is better kept for ceremonial occasions (and possibly exams, though the jury is out on this one) and black tie for social, but YMMV. I'd be surprised if black tie was required for anything other than a formal dinner/dance... Also worth noting is the fact that it seems to be acceptable (if not de rigueur) for Scots to wear kilts etc. in place of black tie.

19:49 / 09.04.03

Tuxedo jacket lapels may be smooth, notched or peaked; I *think* the smooth ones are called "satin" regardless of what they're made of (though usually it's satin). Those are pretty standard in my mind, but once you're actually shopping for one, it's amazing how many relics of the 70s you come across.

(No, wait, I'm wrong. It's a "shawl" lapel... and notched lapels are properly business wear, while peaked lapels are formal. Go figure.)

In the Deep South (and possibly in Northeastern metropoles), if you run in the right circles, you might get invited to a "White Tie" event, which is a level above "Black Tie" and sounds a bit like what y'all are calling "subfusc."
The tie is white, the shirt is studded... but the jacket is longer. Tail coats OK. Color black. The shirt is plain, but the collars tend to be winged (in the States, those are really popular). White gloves OK.
In my private universe, spats are OK too.
If it's daytime, it won't be "White Tie" it'll be "Morning Suit," with cravats and vests under long grey jackets, grey pants with thick stripes.

Formal wear filecard: 100 years ago or so, the tuxedo was considered *casual wear*. It was what you changed into to go and hang out in the club. As such, appropriate footwear was considered to be tuxedo slippers. There was a movement to revive slippers in the late 1980s, but I don't know that anything came of it. Velvet things, looked comfortable.

This site, "Tuxedo 101," calls them "opera slippers," and has a nice story about the origin of the tuxedo. Ooo, and a nice survey of collar styles.

Also, I dislike cummerbunds (call 'em "crumb-catchers," because the folds go *up* for whatever reason), but don't own a proper formal vest. I've read that black braces are an adequate substitute, but that seems fishy. What's the consensus on that?

Tryphena Absent

19:50 / 09.04.03

Well I think it's all wonderful (gush gush gush)! Who needs a little book of etiquette when you've got a Haus?? Men's evening wear is so ridiculously complicated and I particularly appreciated the pocket distinction because attention to detail is what makes it all so fascinating!! Someone has to know these things! Gosh I feel like Miss Climpson.

20:21 / 09.04.03

White tie is for balls &c, isn't it? I think it's dress shirt, white waistcoat, white tie (duh), and the coat is a dress coat (i.e. a tail-coat cut away at the waist - whereas a morning coat curves down; the morning coat is the one for weddings and so forth, the dress coat is for evenings IIRC, and I think that morning coats can be black as well as grey, though the latter would perhaps be preferable for a wedding). You'd wear white gloves with it if you wanted, and a topper would be the appropriate headgear (is that right Haus? I bow to your superior, obviously).

Subfusc is just academic gear, Grant. It's the same for girls, except we have to wear a revolting black ribbon tie (used to be the bane of my life, but I think I have it sorted now). It's very hard to do well if you're a girl - everyone always ends up looking scruffy. Fecking soft caps don't help either.

20:28 / 09.04.03

wow, you guys all get invited fancy places...wish i was...
(cries)

21:33 / 09.04.03

I looked up subfusc, and was a little confused... does the academic gown *count* as part of subfusc, or not?

It seems like most of the sites I found referred to it as what you wore *under* the gown, and one online dictionary just said it was a dark suit, from a Latin term for darkness or dimness.

Which, now that I think of it, would be smirk-worthy irony.

I was interested at an Oxford page that said girls wore black ties - it didn't mention that they were ribbon ties. Alas, I liked that image. Are the ribbons like Wyatt Earp?

(By way of explanation, this whole "academic dress" thing is a bit alien to me -- at my undergrad institution, we didn't even wear robes or mortarboards for graduation. One guy wore a blue, fuzzy Grover suit. Which might be costume, but ain't de rigeur.)

White tie is balls & weddings, yes. What else would formal wear be for, really?

21:45 / 09.04.03

Whilst we're at it - collars, anybody? Wing collars (of which my dress shirt is sadly saddled with) are, afaik, a bad thing - servants wear wing collars. Proper collars for proper people. That's what I remember of my limited knowledge of clothing etiquette.

Hats are only part of Oxford subfusc. At Cambridge, you're specifically NOT meant to wear them, but are meant to own them - as a graduate. Fellows are different, they get the floppy things and gigantic red gowns.

Kit-Cat is right about girls looking scruffy in Subfusc, but it's not mentioned because we do all know they're doing their best.

21:47 / 09.04.03

Who needs a little book of etiquette when you've got a Haus??

Yes. I can see it now. People debating whether X's hemline is appropriate for the occasion:

"Oh, I'm not sure. I'll check my pocket Haus."

21:48 / 09.04.03

I've just checked the invite for the last ceremonial wingding I went to and it says 'subfusc and gown'. Sometimes they ask for hoods as well - cue mad rush to the academic outfitters to hire the wretched things. Subfusc isn't just the dark suit though - men have to wear white bow-ties and shirts.

The black ribbon ties are rather sad, scratty little pieces of black velvet ribbon which you're meant to tie in a bow. The ones they sell in shops are always too short and they never look tidy... I couldn't bear it any longer and bought a longer piece (it's ridiculous anyway - Ede and Ravenscroft charge about a quid for the velvet jobs, that's obscene) which I pin down so it doesn't get dishevelled.

I remember seeing a chap in a powder-blue velvet suit getting refused entry to the Exam Schools on the grounds that it wasn't proper subfusc - he had a massive yellow cabbage rose in his buttonhole as well. But other than that it is usually pretty flexible - you always get stories about people turning up in black hotpants and getting by.

The whole business is entirely ridiculous, but if one has to do it one might as well do it well. 'There are more important things than costume, but not, I hold, when one is dressing for dinner'.

ONLY NICE THINGS

10:21 / 10.04.03

White tie is balls & weddings, yes. What else would formal wear be for, really?

Well, *dinner*, of course.

You may well be suffering from formalwear inflation over there, G. but most of the balls I've attended have been black tie - white tie would be considered a bit dressy. The commem balls at Oxford, for example, would suit white tie, although it is not insisted on.

Oh, yes, subfusc is indeed from subfuscus, meaning "dark".

K-CC: Yeah, top hat, I believe, if you have to.

13:30 / 10.04.03

White Tie is similarly rare at Cambridge; of the summer balls, there is one that insists on it, Magdalene, and Trinity specify "White Tie Preferred", ie if you've got it, wear it. Other than that, high-level fellowship things might specify, or very formal occasions. I certainly don't move in circles high enough to ever have to dig out the dresscoat. Yet.

13:33 / 10.04.03

Oh, I wasn't meaning to imply that it's all white ties and toppers here in gay old Dixie... it's just that there's a debutante culture & the whole Mardi Gras event season (the *real* thing, not the debauch on Bourbon Street) - things which are fancier than a sit-down dinner.

Full disclosure: although I've been invited to white-tie events, I've never been able to go, with one thing and another, and thus have never been able to wear my top hat properly. I'd have to rent the white vest & cutaway, or find an affordable one. The excuses to wear really aren't that common.

ONLY NICE THINGS

13:44 / 10.04.03

You'd get some rather funny looks if you went in a cutaway, wouldn't you? That's morning dress, which is to say not worn after 6pm.

18:00 / 10.04.03

I thought "cutaway" could refer to morning coats and tailcoats, but I'm not 100% sure on that. Don't they both cut in over the hip?

19:20 / 10.04.03

Yeah, but the morning coat is the one which curves in whereas the dress coat is the one which is cut into peaks at the waist (I have no idea whether peaks is the correct term). I think maybe the cutaway is the morning coat, whereas the dress coat is the tailcoat?

Still, at least you chaps have some sort of rules and it only gets pernickety in the details. The interpretation of women's formal dress can be a right old pain - the latitude, my dears, the latitude...

ONLY NICE THINGS

19:46 / 10.04.03

I'm sure your latitude looks perfectly lovely in evening dress, dear.

The cutaway, or "cutaway tailcoat", to the best of my knowledge, describes the sweeping back in a curve of the non-stroller morning dress coat. The tailcoat of evening dress is generally known either as a tailcoat or as "full dress tails".

20:16 / 10.04.03

I think I deserved that.

20:48 / 10.04.03

Kit-Cat: yes, but sometimes you also have more creative possibilities.

Invitations to things that say Black Tie With Decorations generally make one embarassed that one has no decorations to speak of, whilst fellows (not in the chaps sense) with all manner of things to dangle round their necks get to put them to some use.

21:04 / 10.04.03

Typically I've always understood that nowadays "black tie" means either:

Tuxedo, cummerband and bowtie (black).

or

Black suit, black neck tie and white shirt (although a black shirt is also acceptible if you are inclined).

Personally I find the later easier to wear as you don't end up having to head to Moss Bross the day before to get something.

21:07 / 10.04.03

Reservoir Dogs outfit? Black shirt?

BLACK SHIRT?

This isn't the Oscars... we do things properly around here

I personally have a very strong distaste for cummerbunds and I really don't know why. They just tend to be used cover up girth badly, and aren't flattering in the slightest.

ONLY NICE THINGS

21:46 / 10.04.03

I assume by "neck tie" you mean 4-in-hand tie.

No. What you are describing is "semi-formal" or "lounge suit", at best. There's nothing wring with semi-formal, but it isn't black tie. On the bright side, your hosts are either equally unsure about this or incredibly gracious, so you're probably good.

22:20 / 10.04.03

Quick research reveals that, despite the fact that a tailcoat is actually much more severely cut away at the hip, it's a tailcoat, tailcoat, tailcoat, or, at best, "dress black."
A "cutaway" is overwhelminging a morning coat, yes.

All winnings go to the Haus.

The mention of the dreaded "semi-formal" brings up the following grim wraith:

"Smart Casual."

Is this just a Palm Beach thing? What the heck *is* it? How does it intersect with its fellow haunt "Business Casual"?

Who comes up with this?

I have my own interpretations of what they are, but they're really just subjective hunches informed mostly by sarcasm and a willingness to wear a guayabera shirt almost anywhere. (I need to get a new one of those... tropical formalwear.)

20:55 / 11.04.03

Glad im a girl, and can pull off virtually any outfit. Heelllooo patchwork dungarees.

20:44 / 12.04.03

Bloody hell, it wasn't like that where I went. Now, I like to look sharp now and again, but this is all sartorial jargon, right?

22:39 / 12.04.03

Kit-Cat is right about girls looking scruffy in Subfusc, but it's not mentioned because we do all know they're doing their best.

ok, normally girls do look scruffier in subfusc than blokes cos most exam mornings we're in a rush and bricking it about the impending 3 hours of doom ahead so looking pristine in obviously the last thing on our minds. except for the day of the last one. loads of blokes I know bought scabby suits from oxfam for their last exam, so it didn't matter when they got covered in flour/egg/glitter/cava etc, so looked like tramps. but the last exam attire for girls seems often to border on hooker-chic: the miniskirts and fishnets or knee socks are whipped out, the red carnation is jauntily worn in the hair, and subfusc is miraculously transformed party gear, in anticipation of the carnage that's to follow.

a friend of mine, after his last final, that it'd be a miracle if he got above a third, in that he'd not been able to concentrate throughout because exam schools was filled with schoolgirls in uniform, and there'd been a girl with a long split in her skirt sat in front of him, to whom he'd paid more attention than his essay on post-kantian philosophy.

kit-kat club: does *anyone* actually buy or wear those naff pointy caps girls can wear instead of mortar boards? I've NEVER seen one in action, I thought it was a mythical garment! Cos if you're not carrying a mortar board, what are you going to use as a pencil case?

00:00 / 13.04.03

Oh, my. It really is another world, isn't it? :-)

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