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Selection of Embryos, general embryology/reproductive politics, even Eugenics

 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
15:26 / 08.04.03
Who are these guys?

They are up in arms over the 'designer baby' judgement: "It is a defeat for society at large and certainly an overwhelming defeat for Parliamentary democracy." (Josephine Quintavalle, Core.)

I can see objections. What I can't see is this rather fearsome denunciation ex cathedra. The contention is that Parliament is the sole appropriate body for this kind of decision, and that may well be the case - though the idea of the House of Commons or the House of Lords as an arbiter of social ethics doesn't fill me with joy - but I don't see that it's appropriate to attempt to prevent a life-saving medical operation with no obvious moral evil on the grounds of proper proceedure.

Even then, I don't know that I see this as a big deal. There seem to be a lot of assumptions flying around about floodgates, ethical misconduct, bad reasons for having children, and so on...

It occurs to me that growing up knowing that you were conceived because you could save the life of your older sibling is a hell of a lot more profound a reason for existance than many others people have to put up with: "I was horny", "s/he was cute", and "it just sort of happened".

And then there's eugenics. This is a dirty word, and I don't know why it is per se. Anyone wanna jump in here and fill my ignant head?
 
 
grant
15:51 / 08.04.03
Because in practice, eugenics involves the sterilization and "disposal" of individuals bearing undesirable traits, like cleft palates, or "mongoloidism," or Jewishness.

Mainly that last one.

There were a few isolate communities in America that got just about wiped out by eugenicists, too.
 
 
Jack Fear
16:12 / 08.04.03
We've done this one, haven't we?
 
 
Thjatsi
05:29 / 23.04.03
If eugenics is anti-semitic then why has a large section of the Jewish community embraced it?
 
 
Jack Fear
12:12 / 23.04.03
The question is a red herring, Thjatsi, and is unworthy of you—the answer's right in the article. Consider, too, that the whole reason those diseases are so prominent in the Ashkenazi population is because of the emergence of recessive genetic traits, a result of generations of strict intra-population marriage practicies—which is in itself a crude sort of eugenics program, isn't it? restricting the gene pool in the name of purity of the blood, and all that.
 
 
Thjatsi
00:51 / 24.04.03
You're right, my last post is at odds with the directness I value in my writing.

Perhaps we should agree on a definition for eugenics before we go any further?
 
 
Jack Fear
13:24 / 24.04.03
The dictionary definition:

The study of hereditary improvement of the human race by controlled selective breeding.

Which leaves unspoken the main questions:

How is "improvement" defined?

Who's doing the selecting?

How is "control" effected?


It's in the answers to these questions that eugenics programs have inevitably gone wonky—that the personal prejudices of the people in charge have inevitably come to the fore, prejudices that generally have no rational foundation. So while eugenics is not inherently anti-Semitic, it's safe to say that the most famous eugenics program of the last century—the Nazi program to create a "master race"—was.

Indeed, there are two unexamined assumptions behind the very premise of the science, and it's perhaps the one I find most troubling:

Does the human race need "improving"?

Can a human-designed program accomplish this more effectively than evoltuion and natural selection?


To answer "yes" to these with full-hearted certainty strikes me as arrogant beyond belief.
 
 
Thjatsi
06:29 / 20.06.03
I’d like to start by apologizing for taking so long to respond. Finals came up, then I was sidetracked by a number of other silly discussions. It is my hope that we can still continue, even though my last post was over a month ago.

The study of hereditary improvement of the human race by controlled selective breeding.

Technically, this isn’t eugenics, since it does not involve breeding. However, I agree that embryo selection could be included in the ‘spirit’ of eugenics.

How is "improvement" defined?

In my opinion, improvement is defined as anything that leads to an increase in the quality or length of life. Using this definition, I would include disease resistance, improved health, social ability, and higher intelligence as improvement.

Who's doing the selecting?

Parents would do the selecting, of course.

Indeed, there are two unexamined assumptions behind the very premise of the science, and it's perhaps the one I find most troubling:

Does the human race need "improving"?


I certainly think so. We humans have been at the mercy of forces we cannot control since the beginning of our existence. It is true that we in the western world have gained some small choice in our destinies during the last two hundred years. However, there are still so many things still outside our control. Disease, aging, crippling injury, birth defects, insanity, all of these are evils we would be better off without.

For example, a recent genetics discovery was made in rodents:

"...they used molecular biology tricks to disrupt the insulin receptor gene in lab mice - but only in their fat cells. "Since insulin is needed to help fat cells store fat, these animals had less fat and were protected against obesity," explains Kahn.

This slight genetic change in a single tissue had dramatic effects. By three months of age, Kahn's modified mice had up to 70 per cent less body fat than normal control mice, despite the fact that they ate 55 per cent more food per gram of body weight.

In addition, their lifespan increased. The average control mouse lived 753 days, while the lean and mean rodents averaged a lifespan of 887 days. After three years, all the control mice had died, but one-quarter
of the modified rodents were still alive.
"

Jack, if you could have done so safely, would you have given your daughter a similar gene knock-out?

Can a human-designed program accomplish this more effectively than evolution and natural selection?

Definitely. I’d like to point out three things:

1) Evolution doesn’t have an interest in human needs or desires, but humans do. There are certain fundamental advantages that natural selection will not give people. For example, most people would prefer go through life without catching another cold. However, there is almost no selective advantage to not getting colds. Therefore, evolution will not give people this ability, unless it was indirectly given for another reason.

2) Natural selection is already being altered through our medical technology. People with horrible genetic diseases can live to produce viable offspring, and defects like my severe nearsightedness are no longer selected against. The gene pool is getting murkier every day. Embryo selection and germline engineering represent a relatively painless way to deal with this problem.

3) Evolution is cruel. It sculpts all species (including ours) through the process of death. And, there are many, many deaths before any positive change can be implemented.

To answer "yes" to these with full-hearted certainty strikes me as arrogant beyond belief.

It strikes me as perfectly rational, without the slightest touch of arrogance.
 
  
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