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Why are we still protesting the war?

 
 
angel
12:48 / 08.04.03
At a local UK Stop the War Coalition meeting I was at last night (Brixton, London), an opportunity was created for us to individualy discuss and share the various reasons we had regarding our continued protest against the Iraq war. Ie: now that the war is in progress why are we still protesting against it?

The reasons given ranged from "The war was wrong when it started, and it's still wrong even now" to "We have to make people think and look at the lies we are being fed by our own governments" to "We have to stand up and be counted, even more so now, if we ever want to be a considered to be a credible opposition to the war".

I think the third point above is pretty important. "People power" emerged from the London demonstrations on Feburary 15th and March 22nd and added to those worldwide to show the anti-war movement as a credible (and sizable) opposition to the warmongers in the Bush and Blair administrations. I do not necessarily think that demonstrating will actually stop the war, but if we wish to be taken seriously on this issue, to try to make the decision makers think twice before soing something completely stupid, then we need to stand up, be counted and show that we're not going to go away quietly.

So in the spirit of last night's meeting - What do you think?
 
 
Poke it with a stick
14:24 / 08.04.03
I think the argument put forward by the pro-war side for "Supporting our troops" as a reason for stopping protesting is ridiculous. No-one is suggesting that we want British troops to die, any more than we suggested Iraqis should.
My main reason for continuing to protest is that if something is wrong, then just because it's taking place anyway doesn't make it any less wrong. The anti-war protests against Vietnam continued all through the conflict, eventually contributing to the decision to leave the country. I don't think there's even a remote possibility that this conflict will last as long, but that's not a reason to stop protesting either.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
14:35 / 08.04.03
Blair and his lot have been spinning and saying things, which the BBC is more than happy to broadcast unchallenged, as though the fact that war has broken out somehow means they're right. It's a shame that all those that marched with us on the 15th of February seem to have thrown the towel in, but I think we still need to work to remind the people that claim that they represent us that might is never right, that killing innocent Iraqis is wrong, that this is an immoral war and now that this war shouldn't be used as a springboard for the next 'pre-emptive' action against either Syria or Iran.

Personally, I'm looking forward to the attempts to take Blair to court as per that writ served several months ago by Mark Thomas and CND (?). I think he's broken the conditions laid down so it'll be interesting to see whether they can force something through.
 
 
Francine I
14:46 / 08.04.03
One suggestion: It may help to pre-emptively counter the pro-war camp's slogans and positions. As has been mentioned here, the idea that anti-war protestors are any less supportive of the troops is for the most part, just shit. It might help to even-handedly address the 'people concern' behind the issue: Yes, Saddam can be a real shit. No, that does not automatically validate war. Yes, UN sanctions forcing Saddam to disarm started 12 years ago. No, I've never seen a sovereign state disarm so quickly sans the force of war, so it's probably not such a surprise he hasn't gotten rid of all his toys yet. The U.N. wasn't surprised. The U.N. pulled out because we decided to bomb their workplace again -- not because Saddam was uncooperative. And so on. Stuff you guys know, but stuff you shouldn't have to repeat a whole bunch just to prevent yourselves from being cornered by arguments you're not making (i.e., Saddam apologist accusations).
 
 
Mourne Kransky
15:16 / 08.04.03
There are also the reasons that:

Bush and Blair will remain in power after the slaughter in Iraq and Bush, in particular, appears to have a shopping list. For him, Iraq was an appetiser.

The public are likely to swing behind the war in increasing numbers as our triumphant boys show that Saddam a thing or two and, with well edited hindsight, the narrative presented of this military excursion will tell a Churchillian tale of plucky USUK fighting for freedom. Just as we now know the Second World War was fought principally to stop Hitler's genocide of the Jews and the entrenchment of Stalin in the East of Europe was entirely incidental. We need voices raised against that airbrushing of history.

But the opposition to this war needs to continue mostly because absolutely nothing has transpired during the campaign to cause me to revise my opinion that it was illegal, immoral and will only make the world a more dangerous place in the future.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
15:30 / 08.04.03
'Cos it's still wrong. It's still marginally legal at best. It's still dumb. And it may just be getting dumber.

Anyway, the 'support' argument really gets up my nose. Apart from anything else, it's stupid military thinking. I mean, you put troops in harms way, right? And then you can discuss taking them out of it, because that would be disloyal? So it's better for them to get totally wiped out than to appear to be disloyal by saying 'oh, shit, we dropped them into a minefield'.

It's a null argument.
 
 
Professor Silly
16:38 / 09.04.03
I have a question relating to protesting. Bare in mind I haven't attended any peace rallies despite my anti-war views, and I haven't stopped discussing this awful war at work to anyone who will listen.

What percentage of protesters do you think will vote anti-Bush or anti-Blair in upcoming elections?

It seems that protesting and not voting doesn't solve anything, and I fear that a large percentage of these people will not vote. While I haven't done any protesting since the mid-ninties, I will vote against Bush, his party, and anyone in congress who directly (or indirectly) supported this damn war.

So I will guess less than 25% will actually vote.
 
 
SMS
21:38 / 09.04.03
The idea that protesting the war is opposing the troops is silly, I agree. One thing that I have wondered about is what specifically, you folks want the government to do now that the war has started. Do you want the armed forces to just leave after we've possibly taken out the old regime? Or are you just saying that it should never have been done and we aren't going to forget about it. If it's the second, that makes sense, but it isn't always made clear. if it's the first, then I am curious about the position, because it seems to me like a horrible idea, but I might be missing something.
 
 
Ganesh
21:45 / 09.04.03
We are registering our disapproval with the war because the end did not justify the means and it still doesn't. Also, there's a very definite sense that the war is not ending but beginning.
 
 
gingerbop
23:12 / 09.04.03
Yeah, not all too certain that i believe all the shit the BBC are feeding us... i think selective viewing, VERY selective viewing, is what we are seeing. But i'l just be glad to see them come back safe. And just hope that the guys i know out there dont come back murdurers.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
06:18 / 10.04.03
This is as good an opportunity as there's gonna be for the anti-war protests to get more complex. The issue is no longer 'to stop the war'. Stopping the war was always an unrealistic target -- so why not focus on more pressing issues which there is a possiblity of redirecting?

To me it seems that what needs bringing to 'public attention' is not just the effect of the US invasion, but the effects of 'postwar' reconstruction. Which, of course, is not postwar at all. It's crazy -- already the big corporations are fighting about who will get all the contracts -- for power, privatised water (this is gonna be a big issue over the next 20 years), 'peace-keeping' (look at the Carlyle Group), food, oil, the opening up of Iraq's resources etc.

Or you could talk about how Iraq has taken the eye of the media (and the world, and the Un, and whoever else) off Palestine, where more sttlers are moving in, a gigantic wall is being built, and the Gaza Strip has been pretty much reoccupied.

These are the reasons I think it's important to keep protesting. But then, during this whole campaign I have felt that 'peace' protests slotted conveniently in with the US/media's aim to make people think they were *beginning* a war, not continuing one that's been going since 1991, or 1967.

This is an unrelated question (sort of) but how do people feel about joining in protests with people who feel that a UN-backed war would have been acceptable?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
13:48 / 10.04.03
A UN-backed war being what?

A war originating from the UN, genuinely the will of the international community, I would still have a problem with because I'm shifting ever closer to total pacifism. But it wouldn't have near as many possible lousy consequences and so on. I also think such a war is wildly unlikely, for a variety of reasons.

A war rubber stamped by the UN would have been a disaster. I'm reasonbly pleased with the UN's performance on this, if less than happy with my government.

I'm starting a new thread to deal with SMS's question about what would be appropriate action now.
 
 
Poke it with a stick
15:02 / 10.04.03
Hopelessly off-thread, but this could be a great image for protests at America's plans for a post-war Iraq. It says everything you need to know (Plus, it kinda proves Napoleon's maxim to be as relevant today as it was then).
 
 
casemaker
16:04 / 10.04.03
Why I still protest the War in Iraq:

1. Ethics: The amount of people that have been victimized through violence and death (Coalition soldiers, Iraqi civilians and yes, if one is to be unbiased, Iraqi soldiers) outweighs the flimsy justification of guarding the world against Weapons of Mass Destruction. This W.M.D. supposition has not been proven. It is a weak reason to sacrifice lives, based on an abstract scale, with no evidence to justify the administration’s stated reason to attack. With all this media bombardment it’s difficult to remember, but liberating the Iraqi people is not why coalition forces attacked. If it was, it should have happened years before today.

2. Economics: The Bush administration’s new tax plan does not include how much money the war will cost the U.S.A. Over ten billion dollars was offered to Turkey for financial aid, in exchange for their airspace. Over two billion will be spent to set up up the new regime in Iraq. Uncalculated billions will be spent over the next few decades as forces occupy Iraq and attempt to keep a democracy stable there. At the same time the Bush administration is spending money, they are cutting taxes, mostly to the upper class that helped to elect them and they hope will do so again in 2004. With all this money disappearing, how will America pay for the newly created Homeland Security (a more feasible defense against terrorism than reforming nation states), education and other waning state finances?

3. Diplomacy: It can be argued that North Korea is a far more threatening nation to world order. And yet the administration believes North Korea can be assuaged with diplomacy. What made Iraq incapable of diplomatic solution? Geography? Oil? International trade? Non-secular society? It is clear that the administration hopes to install “democracy” in the Middle East region, to stabilize their own motivations.

4. Hypocrisy: The Bush administration was elected under the campaign that it would not support “nation building.” Reworking nation states into U.S. controlled governments is hypocritical to what the administration claims to believe. Also, by invading Iraq without United Nations backing, the administration is ignoring a world body it belongs to. This sets a context for other nations to behave the same. If the United States disregards the U.N. as an effective organization, then it should withdraw its membership.

5. Democracy: If one is to argue that democracy is the better form of government that will give its citizens political freedoms and civil liberties, then it is important that the people of the region are allowed to implement it themselves. I believe that forcefully changing a government can be disastrous and may open a chaos that is unpredictable and even more difficult to defend against.

These five reasons applied to me before the war began and they apply to me today.
I am still against the war.

Question: Do you think it is accurate to say that one motivation for pro-war advocates is to have a historical event that allows them to define themselves as great and with cause or purpose? How much of this war rhetoric has been haunted by the shadow of World War II? Do people want to believe in a mythology that they are liberators and not conquerors?
 
  
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