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A grounds-up discussion of the war

 
 
Murray Hamhandler
16:44 / 31.03.03
I've gotten so used to discussing this war w/left-leaning people that, when faced today w/a classroom full of kids who support the war, I was thrown a little off-balance. I have a lot of reasons that I'm opposed to the war, but I'll be the first to admit that I'm not terribly articulate when it comes to voicing those reasons. I'm not well-schooled in the minutiae of international politics. I could throw out a bunch of...stuff, but it would most likely be filled w/inaccuracies and simplified notions. And that's not going to help me to convince anyone of anything.

So I'm calling out for help. Imagine that you're starting from the ground floor and presenting facts to an audience of 18-year-old kids who only know about the war because Carson Daly told them it was happening. Send me to sites w/a breakdown of the situation. Provide biased and unbiased accounts from all sides. If at all possible, give me links to reputable sources for any info given. I want to speak up but I also want to feel more sure about my ability to do so. Thanks.
 
 
Jack Fear
17:01 / 31.03.03
I'm not well-schooled in the minutiae of international politics. I could throw out a bunch of...stuff, but it would most likely be filled w/inaccuracies and simplified notions...

and yet

I have a lot of reasons that I'm opposed to the war...

Do you? Do you really?
 
 
Francine I
17:15 / 31.03.03
Jesus, Jack. If you're going to support the war, tell them why you support the war -- don't just try and make them feel like shit for a conversational mis-step. I've seen you wax quite scathing, dealing with those who short-circuit discussion by unhelpfully undercutting points while offering no counter of their own. I would expect you'de at least tell this individual why you're right, or what you think, if you're going to go out of your way to prove them wrong. That is, or rather should be, a default courtesy, methinks.
 
 
Jack Fear
17:28 / 31.03.03
I'm not necessarily pro-war. But I am anti-sloppy thinking.

Here's the thing: I've seen a couple of calls here for information to bolster an anti-war opinion. But that seems to me to be going about the process entirely backwards. If you go looking for information that supports the opinion you already hold, there's plenty of it out there.

But if your mind is made up before you start looking at the facts, well, that's a huge blind spot, isn't it?

There are three sides to every story: your side, my side, and the truth. And if you want to know what's going on, what's really going on, you've got to go into it with an open mind: opiniuons should follow facts, not the other way around.

I go into attack mode when I see unexamined assumptions being made by either side of the debate.
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
17:43 / 31.03.03
From my first post:

Provide biased and unbiased accounts from all sides.

I'm an art student, not a political science major. I am, rather than assuming that I have all of the answers, admitting to not having enough facts/knowledge/background to cogently argue for any side of the war...and I'm asking for help. Explain, please, how the above (a request for information upon which an intelligent opinion can be formed) is an example of sloppy thinking.

If you feel that you have solid evidence that our being at war is a better thing than our not being at war, please provide it. I'm as flexible as they come. All you're proving to me at the moment, Jack, is your eagerness to slip in a snarky comment at every opportunity. I respect your opinion and I think you're better than that.
 
 
sleazenation
18:08 / 31.03.03
Jack Fear Sez "Here's the thing: I've seen a couple of calls here for information to bolster an anti-war opinion. But that seems to me to be going about the process entirely backwards."

Actually that's one of the reasons that I remain unconvinced by the justification for the current conflict in Iraq. The coalition governments have been very thin on clear unambigious evidence of weapons of mass destruction, supposedly the initial reason for starting this war. As the lack of clear and unambigious evidence became more apparent, the coalition sought other justifications (such as moral justification) for their action. As jack says, action and proceed from clear and unambigious justification not the reverse (and possibly should be well thought out in terms of consequence to boot.)
 
 
sleazenation
18:27 / 31.03.03
further to my last post

I can appreciate what you are trying to say Jack. And while realise that one totally partial view is as bad as another, especially unexamined views, there is also no such thing as an unbiased view, reporting or indeed unbiased anything.
 
 
Jack Fear
18:54 / 31.03.03
sleaze: True nuf. So what do we do? Throw up our hands and flip a coin? Why feel obligated to be on one side or the other? Maybe being undecided is the only intellectually honest choice...

And I'll be the first to admit that, whatever moral case there is to be made in favor of Western intervention in Iraq, that wasn't the case that the US administration was making before the war started—probably because doing so would mean admitting that Chomsky was right all these years: Texans have their pride, you know.

But I don't think it's a coincidence that after GWB started downplaying talk of pre-emptive self-protection, and starting talking about freedom for Iraqis—i.e., after that televised address giving the 48-hour deadline—support for the war started spiking. And now that we're in the thick of it, you're not hearing much about WMDs at all, and a lot about moral obligation. Blair has always seemed far more engaged on a moral level than on a purely self-defensive or political level, which I think accounts for his extraordinary popularity here in the Sates, if not at home.

Some folks don't like morality mixed with their foreign policy, of course: I heard Dominique de Villepin on the BBC 'tother day, scoffing that "This world eez too complex for moral leadership." But the fact remains that it's easier to get folks to back your effort if you give them a cause that they perceive as just, and protecting yourself from WMDs, while it may be just, also seems a trifle chickenshit: but taking up the White Man's Burden and helping our little brown brothers to reap the benefits of prosperity and democracy—or, for that matter, cleaning up our own messes and trying to atone for our past mistakes—that's something people can get behind.

Does my rhetoric seem contradictory to you? Are you confused about my position on this thing?
Brother, you're not half as confused as I am.
 
 
Mr Tricks
19:52 / 31.03.03
here's a bunch of links I've been using to formulate opinions:
Iraqbodycount.net
Iraq facts
The Brookings Institute
Henry Kissinger's opinion
inter-nation.org
Premtive Strike theory?
pro peace site
reference pics
Narco News
workers.org
gulf war vets
the list goes on...
The New American Century
...annnnnng, Democracy Now

have fun... I guess...
 
  
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