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Underground > Books, Criticism & Writing >

Is Robert Anton Wilson for high school geeks? (ages, authors, patterns, and problems)

  
  

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illmatic
16:30 / 03.04.03
I'll second that. I've got a real fondness for old Bob. LVX, next time you go meet him, touch the hem of his robe for me (I'm serious).

I think one thing we've got to differentate here is his his non-fiction/semi-autobiographical work from his fiction. I haven't read any of it apart from Illumantis so can't make a really informed comment but I think Illumantis comes over as a bit of a hack job - I suspect it was, him and Robert Shea trying to bottle the 60s/70s and make a few quid. One account I read said that the publishers made him cut 500 pages!! Can you imagine the full length version!!

Books like Cosmic Trigger though, both 1& 2, I think are just great. Great personal accounts of one man's journey through cultural hyperspace as America got loose and a bit groovy, from the late 50s, (I think?) through the 60s and 70s. There's a bit of a crazy time-capsule quality to Cosmic Trigger 1, as someone said above, but I think it's a great account of some great times and an interesting (and sometimes tragic) life. Shows what might happen if you start monkeying around with drugs, Crowley and riding the current of the times. I like looking back on this book, i fel like you can see counter-cultural history emerging, from his early peyote trips through to Vietnam war resistance, and so on.

Cosmic Trigger 2 is probably a deeper book in a lot of ways, as he lays out a lot of autobiographicl detail about his childhood, some of which is really touching and moving stuff. This is all mixed in with the usual Forteana and conspiracy stuff and other ideas too disparte to mention, but I think it works really well. I still happily flick through both of them now, and I'd recommend 'em to anybody.
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
18:40 / 03.04.03
did anyone see raw when he was on Politically Correct with Bill Mahr?
i barely remember it as i was half asleep, and no vcr at the time

i have been tryin gto find it but cant, RAW was apparently called in last minute because it was going to be a show about drugs with leary as one of the guests, but when he died it became a memorial show and raw filled in...
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
01:36 / 06.04.03
read bits of illuminatus around 17-20. it throws around some interesting ideas, utterly tedious to read... sax is dead right about 'soundbites for 4am conversations'. heh.

cosmic trigger on the other hand, first picked up at the same time and really must go back to, as I remember them being really interesting as a pop-hist-cultural sweep, and I suspect v.interesting from a performative POV.

and must have another go at discordance, which I picked up after reading ulysses at college... can see how coming to Joyce thru' RAW could be interesting...

anyway, not the topic at hand. carry on.
 
 
rizla mission
09:15 / 06.04.03
I think it's a shame how Wilson is automatically associated with 'Illuminatus'.

Although I still love the trilogy in all it's big, dumb, hare-brained hippie ridiculousness, books such as 'Prometheus Rising' and 'Masks of the Illuminati' are excellent pieces of work which I think stand up pretty well to .. shall we say, the more discerning reader.
 
 
Professor Silly
18:02 / 06.04.03
Right then....

I just re-read the Cosmic Trigger series, and I think a lot of folk here could benefit from looking at the third volume again, especially his chapter on "Isness and Allness". To say he "is" inferior merely shows one's utter lack of understanding on his writings, as much as saying he "is" the greatest. RAW, in his "non-fiction", does more to synthesize twentieth century non-Aristotalian thought processes (through semantics, physics, metaphysics.,) than any other writer I have seen.

That said, I started to re-read the Illuminatus! Trilogy and have some comments. First of all, I should mention that since I graduated from a University I have studied and practiced Crowlean Thelemic Magick (which I might not have gotten into if not for RAW). So I have a much different perspective than I did the first couple time I read it. Any one else notice that the trilogy has five sections, named (in German) Verwirrung, Zweitracht, Unordnung, Beamtenherrshcaft, and Grummet (which means Chaos, Discord, Confusion, Bureaucracy, and Aftermath)? The Roberts (remember: two authors) further divide the trilogy into ten chapters entitled (in Hebrew) Kether, Chokmah, Binah, Chesed, Geburah, Tiphareth, Netzach, Hod, Yesod, and Malkuth (Crown, Wisdom, Understanding, Mercy, Strength, Beauty, Victory, Spendour, Foundation, and Kingdom).

Finally--my studies of Qabbala may pay off a bit!

Starting from the top, so to speak, we have Chaos-Crown, where we get basic introductions to the major players of the book, without any frame of reference as to how they connect with each other. Next we have Chaos-Wisdom, where we get introductions to some knowledge and several good speeches concerning the basic ideas of the book. Finally we have Chaos-Understanding, where we get a pretty good idea of the sides in the upcoming battle. Of course, like the Invisibles, both sides really fight for the same conclusion, and everyone wins.

Next up we have Discord-Mercy, where we see such scenes as Hagbard handing out damp rags to protestors, and other acts of kindness. Following we have Discord-Strength, with lots of fighting (underwater battles, hand-to-hand combat between peaceniks and God's Lightning). This brings me up to where I've gotten so far this week.

My point: This book has more layers than an onion. If I can grok out this much more from the book simply by reading Crowley...well, it suggests a hidden structure that most people simply don't recognize. To say that "it is unreadable" assumes that everyone else on the planet has the exact same experiences and memories as the speaker (an egocentrism that seems utterly re-dick-you-less).

As for the style and prose: I've had no problem this time. I can handle the jumps in character and time-frames with ease. When I original read it I felt confusion throughout...now it seems very straightforward. All of the sex scenes have elements of Initiation--and as Crowley once said "initiation never ends." If you don't understand what I mean, join the O.T.O. or the Freemasons.

Bottom line (with spoilers): Hagbard Celine runs a part of the Illuminati, and therefore all the characters who join him (Simon, George, Joseph) have joined "the enemy." Everything Celine says has elements of both truth and lies, and we don't get to see what he thinks, only what he says and does. Everyone has a part to play in the conspiracy on one side or the other--and the outcome is not in doubt. The Illuminati wants nothing more in this book than the mass initiation of everyone at the rock festival, which unfortunately involves some ritual sacrifice (so that the survivors may experience partial enlightenment).

With this reading, I have no illusion that the Illuminati represent the enemy, or that the Discordians represent the heroes. They merely represent different parts of the same body. As Hagbard Celine says towards the end, they don't even call themselves the Illuminati anymore--they currently use the name A.'.A.'. (Crowley's secret magical-scientific society). This organization still exists (I joined two years ago) and all this merely proves the point: you may start off fighting the conspiracy...and you'll join eventually whether you know it or not.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
06:58 / 07.04.03
I was wondering how long it would be before someone wheeled out the "If you don't like it, it's because you haven't understood it" argument...
 
 
The Falcon
07:26 / 07.04.03
There's no need to be tetchy, Flybers. I know why you don't like it, but wasn't particularly conscious of what dAb tells us, which is interesting stuff.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:36 / 07.04.03
Quite possibly so, but come on: To say he "is" inferior merely shows one's utter lack of understanding on his writings - that's just needlessly smug "ah! do you see? you are sleeping and you do not want to wake up!" bullshit.
 
 
The Natural Way
08:43 / 07.04.03
While RAW DOES have all the subtlety of Mothra v Godzilla via Ultimate Head War, I'm not sure "his style irritates" is enough of a reason to throw him in the trash. There's ALL kinds of gems in his books (I squingillion the Cosmic Trigger series!), and there's a great deal of fascinating autobiography and touching cum amusing ranting flawed-old-bugger. I can't believe, and I'm pointing at you Fly, you can't find anything in it.... Bob's stuff is so....full. This thread's choca with groovy RAW observations.
 
 
bjacques
13:48 / 07.04.03
I read it in my early '20s. I think the last time I read it all the way through was about 10 years ago. I also read Masks, Cosmic Trigger 1,2 and part of 3 and Prometheus Rising and Ishtar Rising. I've found some of it still fresh and some impossibly dated. For one thing, it looks like he hung onto the hippie stuff and his Playboy Advisor sensibilities longer than he should have, which made him hypercritical of feminism and the skeptics like CSICOP. But he's a product of his time, and he acknowledges that. His contemporaries are Diceman and J.R., Olympia Press and Grove Press, so you can see what sort of ideas were circulating then, even in progressive literature. Henry Miller, Anais Nin, Norman Mailer and Burroughs may not go over well today either.

That said, I'm glad I read Illuminatus! when I did, and I'll always be fond of it even if I never read it again. It's playful and introduced a lot of post-hippies (and other people) to parts of their own culture lost in the so-called Culture Wars. Today the '60s painted as hardhats versus dogmatic New Left types. But there were also Discordians, "The Realist," William Burroughs, the Motherfuckers, the Fugs and so on, cultural bright spots that outlive dead history or return in newer guises. Too bad the French Situationists never got on with the American Crazies.

I liked its playfulness about conspiracy theory, which, then as now, drives a lot of US politics. My problem with it had been its self-defeating and paralyzing effect. Wilson & Shea parodied it by overload and also raised the idea of a "we" conspiracy into the bargain.

First time readers might be put off by the archaic writing style or cultural assumptions that are no longer valid, like stories by Bulwer-Lytton, Poe, Lovecraft or even Thomas Pynchon. But I think RAW is worth at least a look. Different people love and hate different tings about RAW's work. Mabe he's the K-Tel of counterculture. If you wanted to compile better sources for the ideas he uses (or abuses), it would cost you hundreds of dollars and may not be available in stores. Or you can get the singles collection.

That reminds me, there's a line in "The Recruit," (aka The Farm) the new movie with Al Pacino that I thought was going to be another American military/spook advertisement but turns into something else (the Vonnegut references should have been a clue). One of the characters makes a crack about going to see John Dillinger's penis in the Smithsonian. It could be a whisper from RAW, or maybe from co-writer Mitch glazer, who also co-wrote Mr. Mike's Mondo video. But if it weren't for RAW, a lot fewer people would have gotten that joke.
 
 
Professor Silly
14:11 / 07.04.03
Flyboy--you just proved my point. I will try to explain it better.

Any statement that something "is" something reinforces a belief in either/or logic. As shown through twentieth century advances in semantics/language, such statements lead to emotional responses and arguments. RAW writes extensively on this subject through the Cosmic Trigger series. If you look back at what I said originally you will notice I compared "he is inferior" to "he is the greatest." Both statements mean nothing. What you should say should sound like this: "I don't like him or his writings." Noone can argue against this, because it states your opinion.

Now: deep breaths. My words won't hurt you...deeeeepp....breaths....

So, try and restate you opinions as opinions, not as facts. Take out "is" and "are" and "was" and "were"...and while picking out words let's take out "be" and "been" ETC. We will soon have rational discussion rather than childish bickering.

As far as "one's utter lack of understanding of his writings" I mean that until we synthesize these advances of the English language, we will continue to mistake words for things (something RAW tried throughout his career to fight). One can understand his writing and still dislike his style. One could say "Wilson's writings seem unstructured, childish, needlessly sexual, and I'd rather eat glass than ever read another of his books," to which I would say "wow...I like his stuff...have you tried David Brin?"

See how it doesn't descend into "OH YEAH!?!"

Do you get what I am saying yet?
 
 
Simplist
18:00 / 07.04.03
dAb, your point is well taken. Still, I can't be bothered to write exclusively in ePrime (though possibly that would be advisable, at least when discussing RAW) and adding IMO to each declarative clause in every sentence quickly gets tiresome.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
19:47 / 07.04.03
Indeed. I tend to assume that everyone takes it as a given in the Spectacle that opinions on art are ultimately subjective but may not always be presented as such, and indeed I thought the inclusion of phrases such as I don't get that from and I think that were indicative enough in my earlier posts to qualify as rational discussion.

I will concede, however, that there can be a great difference between a writer's fiction and non-fiction, so I may yet seek out some of the latter by Wilson.
 
 
Rev. Wright
21:13 / 07.04.03
fNORD
 
 
Professor Silly
04:05 / 08.04.03
(group hug)

I tried my hand at Promethius Rising...and I found it interesting for a while. I'm much more interested in A. Crowley now-a-days.
Quantum Psychology requires working with a group...and I've not found anyone interested in trying the "excersizes". It deals a lot with the E-prime thang.

I recommend Sex and Drugs. It seems the most straight-forward of his works.
 
 
EvskiG
18:23 / 08.04.03
Since this is Barbelith, it's also worth noting that The Invisibles is almost painfully derivative of the Illuminatus Trilogy. The first few examples that come to mind:

A small group of anarchist freedom fighters battles against a global conspiracy that includes evil Cthulhoid beings and prominent members of the government.

Both sides employ mind-altering drugs, sex magic(k), and popular culture in their conflict.

It eventually becomes unclear exactly who is a good guy and who is a bad guy.

The charismatic anarchist "leader" eventually comes to realize that violence may be self-defeating, and that even opposing the conspiracy may be unnecessary in the grand scheme of things.
 
 
--
21:26 / 08.04.03
Actually, I had fun reading "The Illuminatus Trilogy" after reading The Invisibles, and seeing where GM got some of his ideas.

Next up I'll be looking for the "Cosmic Trigger" books I guess.
 
 
The Falcon
16:35 / 09.04.03
Me too, Sypha. There are direct quotes and lifts in The Invisibles from a variety of sources. I'm still finding them, having read Valis just the other week.

It's yet to detract from the original experience.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
09:22 / 11.04.03
I like to think of Wilson as a kind of Hugh Hefner figure whose career trajectory was inadvertantly warped by drug-fuelled experiments with magick and suchlike. It's the best way to appraoch his fiction, if you keep in mind that this was written by the then editor of Playboy then the tacky sex scenes do acheive a certain amusing kitsch quality. Or at least to my mind, anyway.

The non-fiction is a different matter, and I'd second other peoples raising of glasses to the old guy. Not to mention all of the innovations in the world of professional wrestling, that we never would have had if it weren't for RAW. And that's the bottom line.
 
 
Lionheart
00:00 / 13.04.03
The first time I read the Illuminatus Trilogy I hated its beginning, liked the middle 300 pages in, and hated parts of the end. Then I reread it and liked it much more because the parts which seemed to be mumbo jumbo randomly written nonsense were actually very important parts of the story. So basically I got into the book on my second reading and I started noticing all the different concepts on the third and fourth read. Yes, I tend to reread a lot of my books. I don't agree with Wilson on everything. Especially on "Never Whistle While You're Pissing." I think that whistling while pissing doesn't cause a "mindsplit" but instead, through practice, expands your awareness so you can be in control of your whistling and your pissing.

I read Schrodinger's Cat Trilogy and while the book is good I hate the first 2 pages. The primate psychology stuff seemed, and still seems, to be wrong and overly simplified and stuff. So basically I now enjoy the book while skipping those two pages. I heard that some parts were cut out of that book when the 3 original books were made into one. Is that true?

Masks of the Illuminati is a great book except one clue gave the whole thing away. It was the clue given during the phone conversation. It was so blatantly obvious that I hoped that it was a false lead. It wasn't and that kinda destroyed the whole mystery.

I've also have and read "The Illuminati Papers" and "Right Where You're Sitting Now" but I've yet to re-read them.

Monkey Out.
 
 
Baz Auckland
07:29 / 13.04.03
I think I'll always love Robert Anton Wilson, partly because I first read the Illuminatus! when I was just get caught up in the Invisibles, and it really blew me away. Also, like the Invisibles, I'll be reading some book along the same lines, go back and read Illuminatus! (or Invisibles) and find out that Wilson referenced that book in the first place. Everytime I read it, I find something new that I never noticed before. And like Catch-22, I can open the book at any part and read, and enjoy it.

When I read, I seem to notice ideas more than the quality of writing. I don;t know if that means anything or not in this case. Maybe.

(FUN FACT: years ago, my then girlfriend bought me a 1968 Playboy for my birthday because it had an article by JP Donleavy in it. A few months ago I remembered it and went hey! I wonder! And sure enough, there in the letterhead is Robert Shea and Robert Anton Wilson, editors. I thought that was great.)
 
 
bjacques
12:54 / 13.04.03
There were indeed bits left out of both Illuminatus! and Schroedinger's Cat when they were consolidated, and this was true even with the early editions.

What I remember from Illuminatus!, in the separate books, is that the parrot saying "Here kitty kitty" was explained. It was one of Hagbard Celine's "demonstrations," showing how easy it was to lead or program people to act against their own interests, like practically everybody in the US who affirmed the Bush "mandate" in the last elections.

In Schroedinger's Cat, there was something about the "Mother Vibe," a sort of proto-"100 Monkeys" thing.
 
 
Simplist
23:08 / 13.04.03
All that was left out of the collected Illuminatus! were the several page "story so far" segments that opened volumes 2 & 3, which unfortunately did contain some information that was not included elsewhere, such as the bit with the talking birds and an explicit explanation of what happened at the end of volume 1 (it wasn't explicitly spelled out in the text). Schroedinger's Cat, OTOH, was cut pretty dramatically throughout for the collected edition. The abridged version does hold together a bit better as an overall narrative (which I assume was the idea), but the choppy, haphazard character of the original was actually one of the things I liked about it. Plus a lot of incidental but entertaining scenes and subplots got the axe, and a few of the subplots don't entirely make sense without the missing material.
 
 
grant
15:53 / 14.04.03
Theorem: the more books there are in a fiction series, the younger the target market.

Compare Harry Potter, His Dark Materials, The Dark is Rising, Lord of the Rings, and Illuminatus!.
 
 
Jack Fear
16:14 / 14.04.03
cough cough The Forsyte Saga cough cough A Dance To The Music Of Time cough A la recherche de temps perdu.

Ahem.
 
  

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