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Comic Books for Intelligent 24-yr-olds

15:31 / 25.03.03

I've been really bored with comics lately. I mean, in recent years superhero comics have gotten smarter but truly intelligent comics are few and far between, which I think is due to the crapitization of Vertigo. So basically, what comics do you think are being made for a more adult audiance? And I don't mean the prominant use of the f-word or sex and gor. I mean adult themes and concepts. Actually, I can only think of the Filth at the moment. So any suggestions you've got will be great.

Matthew Fluxington

15:54 / 25.03.03

This thread from the previous week may be useful to you.

What are you looking for? What do you want to read about?

There's a lot of wonderful comics out there. It's a little overwhelming to attempt to recommend them to you without knowing what you're hoping for.

16:20 / 25.03.03

That was a pretty great thread and yeah, I guess I'm looking for something like Transmet, Preacher, Promethea, The Invisibles, The Authority, Planetary, Marvel Boy... sigh, 3 years ago was really good.

The only thing I get now in Promethea, The Filth, and New X Men.

I think I will check out that Clumsy book, Flux, cause it sounds cool.

16:29 / 25.03.03

I noticed that I sorta contradicted my first post by listing a bunch of superhero comics... but honestly, that's all I know. So I'd love nonsuperhero recommendations as well. Basically, what I want are cleverly written headfucks with heart and great art.

17:44 / 25.03.03

Not reading X-Statix? Come on!

18:19 / 25.03.03

Alias is pretty good. Or so I hear.

20:10 / 25.03.03

Imp, you should definitely read ALIAS. Also ULT. SPIDEY, TOM STRONG, TOP TEN. Let's see, what else.... ummmm...FROM HELL? Have you read that? A hearty "YES!" to X-STATIX. You won't be sorry.

Go back and find Morrison's old DOOM PATROLs. Don't worry, a lot out there is much better than that SHADE: THE CHANGING MAN paperback, which I see you recently read and were unimpressed by (I also skimmed it and thought, "Not worth my time and money.").

Read POWERS by Bendis & Oeming. Seriously.

I'll let you know what else I think of.

21:03 / 25.03.03

I hope you've looked into Sandman. If you've already read all of the collections, then I guess you're SOL, but assuming ou haven't I would.

The Timaximus, The!

21:34 / 25.03.03

Hellboy by Mike Mignola isn't especially deep or adult, but is still one of the finest comics around. Even Alan Moore says it's like stepping into a special corner of funnybook heaven. Unfortunately, it's on hiatus while Mignola works on the movie. Castle Waiting by Linda Medley is on hiatus indefinitely, but still worth checking out. The whole run is avaliable (or will soon be) in paperback. Supernatural Law is good, and for the most part getting better with each issue. Age of Bronze by Eric Shannower is excellent, though there's only one collection so far and I don't buy it serialized. The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen v2 is better than v1, if you're not reading that. Hrm, none of these are especially headfucky, though, unless you're Guillermo Del Toro talking about Hellboy. Hope I could help.

Tim

22:15 / 25.03.03

Personally, I have a similar dilemma. I've reached an age and maturity where the tropes I enjoyed in my youth just don't cut it anymore. The repetitious battles of revolt and domination don't speak to me as an adult. It's tough to find comics that speak directly to an adult, although many of the previous recommendations go a long way towards alleviating the derth of material.

I'd also like to recommend the work of Joe Sacco, principally his books PALESTINE, SOBA, and SAFE AREA GORZADE. Sacco combines journalism with comic art to record the lives of people living in militarized zones. Gripping stuff and adult in the best sense of the word.

Los Bros Herandez of LOVE AND ROCKETS fame are an acquired taste but their stories are anchored by human foibles and desires that talk directly to the human heart. Good stuff there. Pick up one of their recent issues to get a taste.

In closing, I also recommend the collections of the comic HATE by Peter Bagge, which is sort of like ALL IN THE FAMILY by way of Robert Crumb. It follows the life of Buddy Bradley from neo-Slacker to husband and father of two, with simpleminded, fascist brother and druggy friends who add flavor to the stories. The Second collection - BUDDY THE DREAMER - is the classic one set in early 90s Seattle, but the later ones deal with Buddy's budding maturity. A nice book.

06:07 / 26.03.03

If you can find it, I recommend Epoxy by John Pham. Its a series of three stories within the so far three issues out. You can order it from their .

06:09 / 26.03.03

06:43 / 26.03.03

I'd suggest Cerebus.
I think that anyones whose looked at the book in the last five years or so would probably admit that Dave Sim is truly trying something different with comics. I find the art gorgeous (especially Gerhards beautiful backgrounds), but you would have to decide for yourself wether the writing is a) brilliant;b) gibberish;c)self indulgent garbage; or d)(insert opininon).
I read on a online page about Sim and his controversial views where the auther desrcibed that the former appeal of the book was being brilliant entertainment (or something to that affect). He said that he continued to read Cerebus because it was like watching a genius have a breakdown in slowmotion (or something to that affect).
Individaul issues are pretty cheap too. You also get the bonus (essay)rant in the back!

08:00 / 26.03.03

"Controversial" is an understatement - the man would appear to be a misogynistic, homophobic loon of the highest order. The Feminist Homosexualist Axis anyone? To be fair I've never sat down with a big pile of Cerebus, but judging by the author's opinions as expressed in his rants, I'm not sure I'd want to.

As for books to read, I can't recommend STRAY BULLETS highly enough. Okay, it isn't high art, but it's bloody entertaining, emotionally engaging, brilliantly crafted and totally immersive. Crime comics as they've never been done before, or since. Also it has the added advantage of being accessable through any point in the run. Each issue deliberately stands alone but also contributes towards the overarching narrative of the whole.

08:13 / 26.03.03

Anyone not familiar with Sim's mania need only go here. Worth a read I assure you.

Headfucks you say, impulsivelad? I think I can go one better. Not only has DANIEL CLOWES put out some of the most mature and sophisticated comic books ever pertaining to the human condition, he also has a lovely taste for the surreal. Check out BLACK HOLE and DAVID BORING for a bloody good time. In fact check out the guy's entire body of work, you won't regret it.

15:22 / 26.03.03

Except that BLACK HOLE is by Charles Burns, not Clowes.

16:17 / 26.03.03

The genius that is Al Columbia recently returned with Pogostick. Columbia just writing sadly although the art by Ethan Persoff is pretty good. It's published by Fantagraphics who also put out Weasel by Dave Cooper and Death and Candy by Max Anderson...

Also worth a look is Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde by Mattotti. It's just fucking beautiful.

Schuiten and Peters'Cities of the Fantastic series are all pretty good expecially 'Samaris', 'Brusel' and 'Ubricand'

All great stuff and not a superhero in sight unless you count Mr Hyde who is obviously a thinly veiled rip-off of the Hulk. Stevenson you thieving get!!

17:52 / 26.03.03

Jason Lute's - Berlin, charting life in Berlin between the wars- continues to blow me away not just the well formed story but the elegance and focus of his artwork.

17:56 / 26.03.03

I'd second the Love & Rockets recommendation, BUT I think it would be a bad idea to test the waters by sampling a recent issue; L&R really requires that you're familiar with the characters. Instead, I'd recommend picking up "Chelo's Burden", book 2 of the complete L&R. First of all, this has some great Gilbert stories using characters who are first introduced in that volume, and second of all, the Jaime characters haven't been developed so much by that time that you NEED to have read volume 1 to understand them.

21:18 / 26.03.03

I'd recommend Ben Katchor's Julius Knipl Real estate photographer . A quite strange look on urban life.

21:28 / 26.03.03

Would agree with dragon about L&R; Go for the early issues to begin with.

As for BLACK HOLE, bloody good point. For some reason I just have it in my head that Clowes wrote it. Must remember to file that information under incredible wrongness. Still bloody good nonetheless.

01:10 / 27.03.03

When I started to lose interest a few years ago, these were the comics that got me through my slump.

Harold Gray's Little Orphan Annie (specifically early 30s)
Charles Schulz' Peanuts (specifically 60s and early 70s)
Milt Cainiff's Terry and the Pirates
Crockett Johnson's Barnaby
New Yorker cartoons of Peter Arno and James Thurber

The Natural Way

12:00 / 27.03.03

What about the League?

Honestly, that and 'Bullets are the best things on the stands.

Oh, fuck it - there are SO many good books.

16:23 / 27.03.03

Yep there sure are some good ones about at present. I am currently enjoying Y the Last Man which is about as frightening and entertaining as it can get, (well worth checking out the first trade which collects 1-4). 100 bullets is fantastic if you read the trade collections and can remember all the plot threads! Infact most of the Vertigo books are great at the mo. Alias is also a good read as is most things by Bendis. I know I'll get shot down in flames for this but Uncanny X-Men is the best its been for years under Chuck Austen and is a great counterpart to Grant's heavier but cooler New X-Men.

The Natural Way

08:35 / 28.03.03

Oh, I meant 'Stray Bullets', BTW. Read it. Now.

11:33 / 28.03.03

But there's, like, hundreds of Stray Bullets right? Zoom sent me one issue & I liked it, but at Chicago Comics I saw at least half a dozen TPBs & I wasn't sure where to start them. Any advice?

Also, how many Eightballs are there? Do you have to start those at #1?

11:43 / 28.03.03

Only for the serial stories such as Like A Velvet Glove Cast In Iron, which you can get in collections anyway.

One off's like Sensual Santa, the Happy Fisherman and Needledick the Bugfucker are worth the price of the single issues, though. Not sure if they've been collected anywhere.

Dad: "What've you been doing all day?"
Needledick: "Fucking bugs!"

Matthew Fluxington

12:24 / 28.03.03

There are 22 issues of Eightball, but you'll never have to buy a single issue other than #22 if you buy all of the trades that have been released to date. #22 is a self-contained comic, and it's my favorite thing Dan has ever done.

This is how the rest racks up -

* All of the serialized Ghost World comics are collected as the Ghost World graphic novel.

* All of the Dan Pussey strips are collected as the Pussey! trade paperback.

* All of the Velvet Glove strips are collected as Like A Velvet Glove Cast In Iron.

* All three David Boring comics are collected as the David Boring graphic novel.

* All of the short stories are collected as the Caricature graphic novel.

* All of the short one-off strips are collected as 20th Century Eightball.

That accounts for the Eightball run. There is a collection of the Lloyd Llewellyn comics that came before Eightball, and a very nice Ghost World film script written by Clowes and Terry Zwigoff which contains some additional comics by Clowes.

Buy all of that, and you will have a complete Clowes collection, not counting his illustration work.

14:05 / 28.03.03

Imp, did you ever read Grant Morrison's JLA run? It's worth reading, would be fun for you pick up in TPB....

The Natural Way

16:27 / 28.03.03

Start at the start, Persy. Best place, really. You'll soon be hooked and then you won't mind shelling out the cash. Get the paperbacks, though. Less expensive.

Matthew Fluxington

16:56 / 28.03.03

I missed part of Persephone's question the first time.

With Daniel Clowes, you don't have to worry about the sequential order of the issues if you stick with the paperbacks. Each paperback stands on its own completely - Ghost World, Velvet Glove, Pussey and David Boring are all stand-alone books, the rest are all short stories/strips that are meant to stand on their own.

If you're new to Clowes, I'd avoid Velvet Glove and Lloyd Llewellyn - they're not bad, but they are aren't as well developed and nuanced as his later work. They are probably best saved til after you've read the rest of his work.

All of Clowes work is available to be ordered directly from Fantagraphics. I'd probably recommend Caricature and Eightball #22 as good starting points, but go for whatever you think sounds cool to you.

Another writer/artist I strongly recommend is Jessica Able, though I've always had a hard time convincing people to read her work. Her La Perdida is one of the finest comics currently being published, if you ask me.

Murray Hamhandler

17:09 / 28.03.03

Just for the sake of being nitpicky, I should point out that there are a few Eightball strips that weren't included in Twentieth Century.... Real minor stuff for the most part, though ("Nature Boy", anyone?). A couple of the excluded Clowes Duplex Planet strips that were in Eightball have been included in David Greenberger's recent No More Shaves trade (another highly recommended read, imp!) and you can buy Clowes' Modern Cartoonist pamphlet (otherwise uncollected anywhere else) from Fantagraphics for a buck.

Persephone: Splurge and get the three Stray Bullets hardcovers. I did and I wasn't disappointed. Nice looking books and lots of fun stuff. You'll be a little behind the curve, but I'm sure that a fourth HC is just around the bend.

I would recommend that anyyone read Jim Woodring's Frank stuff, but I would recommend against rushing out to buy the trades, since everything in the two trades will be collected w/all of the previously uncollected Frank strips in a positively huge hardcover in about two months.

Non-superheroey comics that I've enjoyed recently: Junko Mizuno's Cinderalla (surreal and fucked up non-Manga Manga), Bob Fingerman's Beg The Question (love n' life in NYC), Jeffrey Brown's Clumsy (talked up by Flux in the thread he links to above), and Herriman's Krazy And Ignatz collections (comic strips as they damn well should be today).

A

23:42 / 29.03.03

Is the Stray Bullets that was given out on Free Comics Day a good indication of what the rest of the series is like? Because I thought it was pretty freakin' lame.

Murray Hamhandler

16:39 / 30.03.03

I dunno. Which story was it?

I'd say that, in general, it's probably unfair to judge Stray Bullets by any single issue (as it probably is w/most comics series that have any complexity). All of the stories are part of a larger tapestry. There are quiet, contemplative chapters and chaotic, action-packed chapters. Reading a single issue is a bit like watching five minutes in the middle of a film. Read one of the trades and see what you think.

The Natural Way

16:45 / 30.03.03

Well, ADAM, it might help if you explained why you thought it was lame, and then we'd be able to tell you whether or not you can expect more of the same.... Oh, and that you're wrong.