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Mutual dreaming sabotage.

11:34 / 24.03.03

Hello everyone.

For a long time now (a period of several years) I have been lucid dreaming and for about the last six months I have been mutual dreaming, (sometimes called meeting dreaming) with a friend of mine whom I met through this interest. We have had some amazing experiences, and (other than the main content of our dreams generally being indentical) we have experimented to provide 'proof' to ourselves that we are dream sharing, for example we both agree that we will swap an object in our dreams, and then we compare notes to see if the object is the same - I give him a red flower, he is given a red flower and so on.

However, IRL recently I found myself in a situation which made my dream partner angry, and which overlapped into the dreaming and since then even my 'private' dreams have become 'sabotaged' by him. For example, a dream which I would normally find easy to manipulate suddenly becomes impossible to control, and things happen to me which I cannot stop. I am still in a lucid dreaming state, I know I am dreaming, but I can't halt the situations which happen and I can't wake up either. Almost invariably, the events which now take place in my dreams are things I fear or find I am unable to cope with, and which render me dreamingly unable to renegotiate the balance of power.

Given that the subject of dreams comes up quite frequently in this forum, I wondered if anyone had any advice on how (as a novice) I can magickally address and regain the control I have lost in these hijacked dreams. I mean novice like still reading Isaac Bonewits, Real Magic! I am luckily unfamiliar with this apparently darkside of dreaming and up till now have always has pleasant experiences, but I have tried everything I know on the subject of remaining powerful in the dreaming and none of it seems to be working on him.

12:18 / 24.03.03

Damn!!

Have you ever read any Castenada?

12:41 / 24.03.03

Also, try concentrating on yourself more than the other person, that is much easier to control, as it is much easier for them to assume control of the situation if you are already giving power to it.

Emotionality draws on your attention and energy, empowering whatever it is focused on. It is not easy to turn off, or at least turn down sometimes, so we can regain control over our own lives and dreams again, especially in the case of intimate friendships.

Hope things work out well for you both.

13:51 / 24.03.03

Have you asked him to stop?
That's a difficult situation magically, because (I assume) you are pretty close, know each other well and have similar magical practices. The magical principle of Contagion (once together always together) means the closer you are to someone the easier any workings on them will be.
One possibility is to break that bond, diminishing his power over you. That's a drastic measure though, and sacrifices the good along with the bad. Is your friendship repairable?
Another possibility is a mirror under the pillow, or any ritual you do IRL- his dream-influence will not be enough to override a waking spell with a physical focus. (hopefully)
But definitely try asking him to stop. Magickal duelling should be a last resort.

13:58 / 24.03.03

BTW I object to your categorising yourself as "Magickal Novice". If you've been telepathically sharing Lucid Dreams for several years, I'd give yourself a bit more credit. You may not be well read, but you might find that a lot you read seems familiar somehow

. Don't overrate magical knowledge, or underrate magical experience.

16:02 / 24.03.03

Mei, I haven't read any Castenada, should I? I've tried really concentrating on myself and what I want to happen, but I guess in the back of my mind I think because he's done it before he'll be able to do it this time. I feel very unsure of myself now, which is extremely frustrating, prior to this I would have said I was really focused and successful in my dreaming. But then he knew that, so it's a clever thing to do.

Quantum, I appreciate the remarks about magickal noviceship, I guess I think like that because I am so very unread and lack magickal skills such as spells etc. But I am trying to catch up on the theory as quick as I can. I didn't even know lucid dreaming and mutual dreaming were considered to be magickal skills until someone (better read) pointed it out to me...

The trouble is we are/were very close and I think that's why he's exhibiting so much power now. I can see how the fact that the closer you are makes workings easier. This may sound silly, but I haven't asked him to stop either IRL or in the dreaming. I haven't been able to in IRL as he is now not communicating with me, and when I dream I forget to do it. Things get so out of my control I have been concentrating on recovering the reins and the actual reason for why it's all happening (i.e. I've royally pissed him off) doesn't go through my mind.

Part of the issue is possesiveness I think, and control. Up till recently I have been a willing participant in any dreaming situations with him, but then I began to step away and this has caused the problem. And Is it technichally possible for someone you normally dream with to know without being told if you dream with someone else? If they are magickally er..better (what's the right term?) than you?

I have found in the past that writing on my hand to remind myself to do something when I dream works, so I guess I could try that. I can see how Magickal duelling is not an ideal situation to get into, and I'm not sure if i want to make him go forever, because I'd like to think we can be friends again. (This too shall pass.)

Oh, and forgive me for being thick, but what exactly do I need to do with the mirror under the pillow?

20:26 / 24.03.03

Just understand that as a mirror reflects, so too will this reflect the other's influence over you back at them. Putting it under your pillow is just an easy way to apply the principle of the mirror to your head while you sleep, and thus dream. Drawing a sigel of intent upon it will help to focus how it works, if you want more detail.

22:49 / 24.03.03

Basic dreaming trick: change channel
Advanced dreaming trick: Psychic interference to the other's transmission

23:10 / 24.03.03

olulabelle,
I echo quantum's post. Give yourself way more credit. While others may be better read than you in magick, you've obviously got an inate ability that is far beyond most of us.

Find strength and power in this.

Also, just as you would decide to bring in a rose, try bringing in a talisman. A golden pentagram might work well to regain control of your dreams. Do not share this object - wield it as your own and through it assert your Will in dreamtime.

22:12 / 25.03.03

Thank you Quantum, and LVX23 for what you say about magickal skills.

I thought you might like to know that asking him to stop appears to have worked, at least for last night. I reminded myself by writing on my hand, and when I saw my hand in the dreaming, I asked him. He didn't say yes, but the place I was in gained an exit which released me. (Into a monochrome world, BTW, but that's pretty irrelevant to this discussion.)

So thanks for the help, and ain't it true sometimes the simplest things work best...

Lilly Nowhere Late

05:33 / 26.03.03

This is fascinating stuff. Forgive my ignorant intrusion here. I do
not know jack shit about magick and didn't ever even consider that
dreaming had to do with it. While I don't disbelieve in magick, it is
just not something I have usually felt safe in exploring. I do not
now have a great desire to take it up either.
That said, I do feel compelled to know more about dreaming. The
situation is this: 4 years ago I lost my soulmate to suicide and for
the past 3 years I have had the most amazing dreams of him trying to
contact me. There is always a blue mobile phone involved and always
obstacles which keep me from completing the contact. But he rings me
up and repeats stories to me which I have written in real life(IRL?).
I have always been an avid, voracious dreamer. What is the opinion of
this? Should I put it all down to grief and normal subconcious brain
vomit or would it be worth trying to facilitate these dreams to see
what I can come up with? Do people find it possible to communicate
across the life/death line through dreaming? Stupid notion? hmmmm.

22:55 / 26.03.03

There are no foolish questions.

At a first look, your dreams do look more like a psychological maniphestation of your insoncsious desires (sorry for the spelling), BUT, if you do have a gift for "dreaming" (understood as accessing different realities through the sleep) there might be something more to your dreams.
Now remember that, in one way or another, dremas are images, symbols, screens. Most of the time what you "see" is not "real".
As a start, try to talk thought the phone. Try to do some light meditation before sleeping, and then use that energy to help you to go beyond obstacles in your dreams.
On the other side, keep in mind that it might not be him, that it might be just his ghost, or something else posing as him. Do not abandon yourself to your emotions.

On a side, I hope you find serenity and consolation for his parting, and that you get to move on.

Lilly Nowhere Late

04:47 / 27.03.03

Thanks for the advice. Too be honest, moving on is already something
I have been fortunate enough to have already done. My life is
completely different and very very happy. Obviously I will never stop
missing or loving my lost one, but he did not belong here. So, that
aside in a rather quick sentence, I am so intrigued with these
notions. I will try meditation, I will also try journaling the
dreams. Now, why would something/one else try to impersonate dead
people in dreams? How do you feel one's ghost is different from the
person?
Wish I had time to go do a proper read-up on everything here, but my
18month old daughter makes it impossible to spend leisurely hours
reading. It is a good trade off too be sure! Thanks tho, for
indulging my querries.

23:03 / 27.03.03

Now, why would something/one else try to impersonate dead
people in dreams?

In classical terminology, there are (lower) astral entities that feed on emotions. They take advantage of any crack on a personality to feed on a human being.

How do you feel one's ghost is different from the person?
This one's harder to answer. A ghost would be defined as a compound of psychical impressions (no soul). So a ghost is only doing what it used to, but there's no real humanity behind. Ghost sometimes also develop into emotional parasites. How do you know one? It's a bit of intuition, a bit of observation. Ghost might feel empty, robotic, even false.

Lilly Nowhere Late

06:02 / 28.03.03

I am pondering all this. It is terribly interesting and I think I
would love to explore it more on a very analytical sort of basis. I
wonder if I can induce this ghost/whatever so I can cognitively study
and discern its nature? Are you to be at the pub thingy Saturday? If
so, perhaps a live discussion?

02:00 / 29.03.03

I'll send my ghost to the pub thing.

02:21 / 29.03.03

Now, seriously -if I can stand it-, the more stable and visually sharp someone appears, and more consistent behaviorlly with "himself" in RL, through a dream for example, the closer he is to being that one he stands for. The more fuzzy and shapeshifting, or physically and even behaviorally different, well, he is more likely to be not. Thats part of my frame work in... eerr... "dreams".

(As a side note: it is quite common to meet in dreams sharp and visually consistent friends or acquaintances, acting completely deranged as to how they act in real life -its okay, they are having their "freudian dreaming" after all)

In common dreams we usually do not check if we are really talking to good ol' uncle Joe and we rely on very quick glimpses from which we mount huge emotional dramas. We even "listen" to things that we make "sound" as if Joe had actually said them. Most of the times, if we look carefully, we'll find out that good ol' Joe's eyes are more separated than the usual, his fingers longer, an that his hair is not much convincing. If we hold the sight, he will get nervous and will start talking trying to distract us from the ridiculous appearance he is trying to fix upon. Oh, and the big emotional drama is blown away. Sweet.

As a rule of thumb, like Ciarconn says above, In Dreams -and soon in Real Life- Whomever You Think Someone Is, He Is, AND He Is Not.

02:25 / 29.03.03

Oh, what Sebatian means is that we do not all live in London, I'm in Mexico, so, as much as i would like to share a live talk with you (and all the 'lithers), it's a bit difficult.
Concerning the question: ghost and other "lower astral beings" feed on emotional energy, so, while you do not fall in their game, they wont be able to benefit from and abuse your attention. If you can manage to keep an emotional distance, you won't get into trouble.

A virtual cheers from Guadalajara, Mexico

Lilly Nowhere Late

04:51 / 29.03.03

How fantastic that you get to live in Mexico. I lived in So.Cali
before moving to London and went to Mexico not quite enough, but a
lot.
Sebastian's advice on taking a closer look seems very worthwhile.
This is something I think I have done when dreaming about "the dead
one" in that I have examined him sort of closely to see if he is him
and physically he is, right down to wearing the right jewelry and
having his same eyes. Perhaps I am giving him this stuff though.

Anyway, I am taking all these comments to bed with me, as it were, and
trying to put them to use. It seems fairly easy, or at least natural,
to remember to do "tests" while dreaming to see if I am even there,
nevermind the ghosts and what not. I'll report my findings if you're
interested when I have some. Of course Mr.Ghostly seems to be
avoiding being studied for now.

23:55 / 29.03.03

By the way, lilly, I didn't mention it above, but I completely believe that it is your soul mate pal trying to contact you in dreams. This thing about the passed away meeting the living in dreams is only misterious if we think about it under the "light" of science, "science" at which if we look close enough remains unable to stop hair loss, is a bit unsure as to what exactly is the origin of most cancers, and has not yet decided whether global warming is indeed the planet heating up or a yet elusive function of the last decades measurements. So, honestly, deceased beloved ones meeting the living in dreams is as old as ancient Egypt, and probably older still.

From what I've experienced and heard, I think our current cultural frame is very disfavorable to cope with the experience in most cases. Usually the widow or widower gets a tremendous emotional bolt when facing a realistically vivid image of the passed husband/wife, who may be smiling and assuring he is perfectly fine, and upon awakening amidst sobs and crying, they just wish it had never happened and fear it occuring again. No wonder they refuse going to bed without intaking hypnotics that guarantee a dream-free night. I am talking the extreme, of course, but it happens. My experieces with the deceased have been both pleasant an unpleasant, the later being the case in which I am emotionally overwhelmed by sadness and frustration, the former being delightful and comforting encounters of someone I met, and still being someone else, much "more" than we both knew in this lfe.

And, of course, he Is_Not your friend, and still He_Is. I'd rather think this one you perceive approaching you is a meta-self of your friend's self, of the self you knew in this life. Being a meta-self means it operates from a stand in which some critical opposing pairs of the reality in which we "mortals" operate have been reconciled or encompassed as not being mutually exclusive, i.e.: past and future, life and death, youth and oldness, this life's self and another "parallel" self, and so on. That is, at least for myself.