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Am I the only one who wants us to lose the war?

 
 
Andrew C*** passing himself of as Haus
03:54 / 24.03.03
Like, I just read about those soldiers getting captured by the Iraqui's and I almost started laughing....Don't know why, it sucks I guess, but...Does anyone else ever feel the same way?
 
 
Baz Auckland
04:34 / 24.03.03
I supress it almost all of the time, but there's that evil part of me that sees it as unreal sometimes, and that I can read bit of people dying and see it disconnected or without caring...

The language of 'meeting stiff resistance' and other terms helps. They seem to really make war like a video game.

I think if it would involve less people dying overall, a lot of people would like the USA/UK/AUS/etc. to lose the war. But to have them lose and more people die...

Yeah, I'm being incoherent here, but there's a demon bit of me that wants the USA/et al. to not win easily, but that would mean more people dying, so it's wouldn't really be better.... would it?
 
 
Andrew C*** passing himself of as Haus
04:43 / 24.03.03
I don't know. They decided to join the army and contribute to the 'war effort' in the first place. They have a choice, and they've decided to put themselves in a really dodgy position.

There's, what? a hundred and forty thousand troops all waiting in Kuwait? So, if Saddam really does have nuclear weapons, what's to stop him dropping one bang in the middle of all of them? BOOM! There goes the majority of your ground troops? What are you going to do now? Enlist? Force us to fight a war on your behalf?

It would be kind of a horrible, self-fulfilling prophecy. And we'd surely get rid of Bush in the next election, and Blair would have to resign.
 
 
Lilly Nowhere Late
05:04 / 24.03.03
Easy tiger. I have a little brother in the army who is currently
somewhere in Kuwait and if you go round having Saddam dropping nukes
on all the troops, you will indeed kill my baby brother in the process
and I will have to come and beat you up. Seriously, have a bit of
open-mindedness here- my lil brother signed up for service when he was
17, stupid, and completely unaware of mortality- his own or anyone
else's. He is one of the sweetest people you would ever want to meet
and the fact that he may have to go now and hurt people as part of his
job will prolly cause him unlimited psychological damage, assuming he
lives long enough to tell the tale. One has to remember that a lot of
stupid kids sign up as a way to get a free education in a country
where education and medicine are totally for profit businesses. They
don't always just want to go human hunting. And nevermind all the
brainwashing that is involved. Just remember, if you see a newsreel
of soldiers and there is one with an m16 on one shoulder and a guitar
on the other, he is my brother and one of many dumb amerikan kids who
wish they weren't part of BushHitler's idiot war. incidentally,
wouldn't it be great if world leaders fought out all their conflicts
through video
games/
 
 
Andrew C*** passing himself of as Haus
05:18 / 24.03.03
You should suggest that he quits then. If he really doesn't want to be in that position.

p.s. Here's a transcript of Robin Cook's resignation speech from last tuesday, (taken from BBC.com news):

"This is the first time for 20 years that I have addressed the House from the back benches.

I must confess that I had forgotten how much better the view is from here.

None of those 20 years were more enjoyable or more rewarding than the past two, in which I have had the immense privilege of serving this House as Leader of the House, which were made all the more enjoyable, Mr Speaker, by the opportunity of working closely with you.

It was frequently the necessity for me as Leader of the House to talk my way out of accusations that a statement had been preceded by a press interview.

On this occasion I can say with complete confidence that no press interview has been given before this statement.

I have chosen to address the House first on why I cannot support a war without international agreement or domestic support.

The present Prime Minister is the most successful leader of the Labour party in my lifetime.

I hope that he will continue to be the leader of our party, and I hope that he will continue to be successful. I have no sympathy with, and I will give no comfort to, those who want to use this crisis to displace him.

I applaud the heroic efforts that the prime minister has made in trying to secure a second resolution.

I do not think that anybody could have done better than the foreign secretary in working to get support for a second resolution within the Security Council.

But the very intensity of those attempts underlines how important it was to succeed.

Now that those attempts have failed, we cannot pretend that getting a second resolution was of no importance.

France has been at the receiving end of bucket loads of commentary in recent days.

It is not France alone that wants more time for inspections. Germany wants more time for inspections; Russia wants more time for inspections; indeed, at no time have we signed up even the minimum necessary to carry a second resolution.

We delude ourselves if we think that the degree of international hostility is all the result of President Chirac.

The reality is that Britain is being asked to embark on a war without agreement in any of the international bodies of which we are a leading partner - not NATO, not the European Union and, now, not the Security Council.

To end up in such diplomatic weakness is a serious reverse.

Only a year ago, we and the United States were part of a coalition against terrorism that was wider and more diverse than I would ever have imagined possible.

History will be astonished at the diplomatic miscalculations that led so quickly to the disintegration of that powerful coalition.

The US can afford to go it alone, but Britain is not a superpower.

Our interests are best protected not by unilateral action but by multilateral agreement and a world order governed by rules.

Yet tonight the international partnerships most important to us are weakened: the European Union is divided; the Security Council is in stalemate.

Those are heavy casualties of a war in which a shot has yet to be fired.

I have heard some parallels between military action in these circumstances and the military action that we took in Kosovo. There was no doubt about the multilateral support that we had for the action that we took in Kosovo.

It was supported by NATO; it was supported by the European Union; it was supported by every single one of the seven neighbours in the region. France and Germany were our active allies.

It is precisely because we have none of that support in this case that it was all the more important to get agreement in the Security Council as the last hope of demonstrating international agreement.

The legal basis for our action in Kosovo was the need to respond to an urgent and compelling humanitarian crisis.

Our difficulty in getting support this time is that neither the international community nor the British public is persuaded that there is an urgent and compelling reason for this military action in Iraq.

The threshold for war should always be high.

None of us can predict the death toll of civilians from the forthcoming bombardment of Iraq, but the US warning of a bombing campaign that will "shock and awe" makes it likely that casualties will be numbered at least in the thousands.

I am confident that British servicemen and women will acquit themselves with professionalism and with courage. I hope that they all come back.

I hope that Saddam, even now, will quit Baghdad and avert war, but it is false to argue that only those who support war support our troops.

It is entirely legitimate to support our troops while seeking an alternative to the conflict that will put those troops at risk.

Nor is it fair to accuse those of us who want longer for inspections of not having an alternative strategy.

For four years as foreign secretary I was partly responsible for the western strategy of containment.

Over the past decade that strategy destroyed more weapons than in the Gulf war, dismantled Iraq's nuclear weapons programme and halted Saddam's medium and long-range missiles programmes.

Iraq's military strength is now less than half its size than at the time of the last Gulf war.

Ironically, it is only because Iraq's military forces are so weak that we can even contemplate its invasion. Some advocates of conflict claim that Saddam's forces are so weak, so demoralised and so badly equipped that the war will be over in a few days.

We cannot base our military strategy on the assumption that Saddam is weak and at the same time justify pre-emptive action on the claim that he is a threat.

Iraq probably has no weapons of mass destruction in the commonly understood sense of the term - namely a credible device capable of being delivered against a strategic city target.

It probably still has biological toxins and battlefield chemical munitions, but it has had them since the 1980s when US companies sold Saddam anthrax agents and the then British Government approved chemical and munitions factories.

Why is it now so urgent that we should take military action to disarm a military capacity that has been there for 20 years, and which we helped to create?

Why is it necessary to resort to war this week, while Saddam's ambition to complete his weapons programme is blocked by the presence of UN inspectors?

Only a couple of weeks ago, Hans Blix told the Security Council that the key remaining disarmament tasks could be completed within months.

I have heard it said that Iraq has had not months but 12 years in which to complete disarmament, and that our patience is exhausted.

Yet it is more than 30 years since resolution 242 called on Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories.

We do not express the same impatience with the persistent refusal of Israel to comply.

I welcome the strong personal commitment that the prime minister has given to middle east peace, but Britain's positive role in the middle east does not redress the strong sense of injustice throughout the Muslim world at what it sees as one rule for the allies of the US and another rule for the rest.

Nor is our credibility helped by the appearance that our partners in Washington are less interested in disarmament than they are in regime change in Iraq.

That explains why any evidence that inspections may be showing progress is greeted in Washington not with satisfaction but with consternation: it reduces the case for war.

What has come to trouble me most over past weeks is the suspicion that if the hanging chads in Florida had gone the other way and Al Gore had been elected, we would not now be about to commit British troops.

The longer that I have served in this place, the greater the respect I have for the good sense and collective wisdom of the British people.

On Iraq, I believe that the prevailing mood of the British people is sound. They do not doubt that Saddam is a brutal dictator, but they are not persuaded that he is a clear and present danger to Britain.

They want inspections to be given a chance, and they suspect that they are being pushed too quickly into conflict by a US Administration with an agenda of its own.

Above all, they are uneasy at Britain going out on a limb on a military adventure without a broader international coalition and against the hostility of many of our traditional allies.

From the start of the present crisis, I have insisted, as Leader of the House, on the right of this place to vote on whether Britain should go to war.

It has been a favourite theme of commentators that this House no longer occupies a central role in British politics.

Nothing could better demonstrate that they are wrong than for this House to stop the commitment of troops in a war that has neither international agreement nor domestic support.

I intend to join those tomorrow night who will vote against military action now. It is for that reason, and for that reason alone, and with a heavy heart, that I resign from the government."


And, from Annova news:


"...Tuesday night's Commons vote in which 217 MPs - 139 of them Labour backbenchers - backed a rebel amendment opposing the Government's position on Iraq."
 
 
Lilly Nowhere Late
05:37 / 24.03.03
Trust me, I have been encouraging him to quit since before he got
started with it.
You may or may not be correct in saying that "he deserves what he
gets", but being that he is my brother, I hope that what he gets is a
good lesson against signing up for anything anymore.
I am going to sulk now because fundamentally, I pretty much agree with
you. At the same time, the personal ressonance is breaking my heart.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
06:03 / 24.03.03
I take it you don't support the war Kodger?
 
 
A
06:14 / 24.03.03
I think I know what you mean, Knodge. It's very hard, when the US and it's few allies are behaving like a cross between Ghenghis Khan and a playground bully, not to automatically start to sympathise with the "underdog", even if the underdog in this situation is a repellant arsehole like Saddam Hussein.

I don't want to see anyone die at all, but, really, the invading soldiers enlisted willingly in an organisation whose job is basically to kill people. The thousands of innocent Iraqi civillians who will die as a result of this invasion didn't. Of course that doesn't mean that the soldiers deserve to die, at all, but I can't help but feel less sympathy for them than I do for the Iraqi civillians.
 
 
illmatic
07:17 / 24.03.03
I know what Knodge means, but I think you have to think yourself out of that position. When you make a big commitment to one position (as a lot of us here have to opposing the war)then you want this postion to prevail no matter what. In this instance, that puts us in a weird headspace because it means you want the war to screw up - to confirm what you already believe, that the War is wrong, ill-advised and dangerous. We all want that buzz of being right.

It's particulary so in this case, with stupid fucking headlines screaming at you from the tabloid press, a paternalistic prime minister whose happy to ignore the wishes of the everybody in the fucking country etc etc. I kinda feel like I've got nowhere for my anger to go, so maybe it gets directed at the wrong targets.

It's a similar postion whenever you hate the goverment - a lot of the time you want things to really fuck up to confirm your beliefs. I remember feeling this very clearly in the Thatcher years.
 
 
The Natural Way
07:22 / 24.03.03
Lilly, of course you don't fundamentally agree with Knodge that, if yr bro doesn't leave the army, he deserves everything he gets. Come on....
 
 
William Sack
07:31 / 24.03.03
Well I'm in the minority that doesn't have a clue what Knodge is trying to say. Granted, if you are against the war (I certainly am) then observing its prosecution puts you in an awkward position (which other posters are exploring), but I certainly didn't "burst out laughing" when I saw the captured soldiers, and I don't feel that dropping a nuclear bomb would bring about a "lovely" outcome. Is there some irony at play here which is totally lost on me?
 
 
illmatic
07:53 / 24.03.03
I thinkit might just be Knodge using his cutomary, erm.. "less than diplomatic" posting style.
 
 
The Natural Way
09:15 / 24.03.03
Yeah, that weird one where other people don't actually exist. That one.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
10:06 / 24.03.03
I can't really burst out laughing when I see the obviously shell-shocked faces of POWs, or the explosion of lights over Baghdad because personally, as another human being, I don't like to see other human beings suffer unjustly. I might burst into tears at the horrible injustice of this war, and the needless pain and suffering inflicted on countless people who don't deserve it, but no, I can't really see the humor in that.

Lily, I really feel for you. That must be terrible, worrying about your brother over there!

I actually ESPECIALLY feel for the soldiers over there, many of whom joined the army as a way to get free education and avoid being stuck working for McDonalds for the rest of their lives, and now they're over there essentially fighting for Bush and his corporate interests.

It's just another example of the injustice of this war, to me.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
10:56 / 24.03.03
I've been reading 'Jarhead', and it's fascinating. One of the things which interests me is the assertion that to a US marine about to go into combat, all war movies are pro-war movies. War porn. However ghastly the images and negative the tone, they celebrate the terrible, impossible, inhuman splendour of war.

I think in a sense it's appropriate to respond to these images with laughter because laughter doesn't have to indicate pleasure. It's also a defense mechanism, an attempt to reassert control over a situation which is beyond the scope of normal responses. I cracked up copiusly - and angrily and sadly - yesterday when I saw on the BBC News website the follwing couplet:

ITN Journalist Killed in Iraq
Blair: War Going According To Plan
.

Two hyperlinks, one atop the other, with an unfortunate (very) black humour.

As with many other aspects of human existence to which I object, the war seems to exist on a scale which defies understanding on a normal level - you can't square it with normal ways of thinking and being.

Reading Jack Fear's links to the NY Times stories (1,2 - you do have to register, but they're worth it, and the Times is a decent rag anyway) about the Masai, I'm reminded of my conviction, which I have not properly explored, that we need to find a way of operation large-scale morality and actions with the same humanity as we do small-scale ones. Somehow, the State has to be able to function in a human manner.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
12:03 / 24.03.03
Once the war started, all I was hoping is that it was over soon for both sides. I really think that Bush was smart to pick a guy like Hussein, who it is utterly impossible to defend in any way. It leaves me thinking that the war should have been avoided, but at least we'll be rid of him.

Of course, the other ironic thing is Bush saying that Iraq better treat the POWs by the Geneva Convention, which he has torn up and tossed by saying the people we have captured are "illegal combatants". I wonder how long until Iraq starts calling their POWs that.

Also, am I the only one who feels that people who aren't as politically active as I am are already bored with the war and want it to be over so we can move on to the next big news "event"? My co-workers are actually saying, "Boy, this is taking longer than I thought it would."
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
14:42 / 24.03.03
I'm bored with it and I'd like to think I'm politically active. It's the twenty four hour bugger all coverage we're getting. We see pictures of the Baghdad skyline, pictures of tanks, pictures of aircraft carriers. We hear briefings which give no important information, and occasional scraps which appear to provide clues as to what's happening before being denied, revised, or ignored thereafter.

So yes, it's boring.

I'm bored with seeing the captured US soldiers, though each time I see the footage, I'm scared for them afresh, and moved by what's happening to them - but I'm aware at another level that this is the same human fellow-feeling I had last time and the pictures are out of date, and that what I want to know is whether there have been any WoMD found, whether Baghdad is being liberated or Saddam is alive - because, though I do feel, strongly, sympathy and concern for those in captivity, I want something which is connected directly to my life and my world, and this is what I'm denied - any information which is of consequence to me.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
14:51 / 24.03.03
This is an inchoate reaction, that I'd like to expand upon further in the coming weeks -

This war, contrary to all expectations, has made me feel safer w/r/t possible terror events in my everyday life.

It isn't because I think Big Daddy George is putting the bad men where they can't do any harm.

It's because the violence and killing and hate has gone back where it belongs - on screen*. Even though there are soldiers with M16s and k9s in some of our subway stations, even though there are constant fighter fly-overs, the threat of imminent violence hasn't seem so unreal since before 9-11.

Naturally, it's sick and fucked up that the torment of other people should make me feel at ease - don't think I don't think about it. But the spectacle of the war in Iraq has totally overwhelmed by sense of what is real and what is unreal.

*I want to make a torturous comparison between "the desert of the real" and "the gulf war never happened" here, but I need to re-read both. Maybe later in the week.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
14:56 / 24.03.03
Well, what do you mean by "lose"? Driven out by successful defenders? Not too fucking likely. A protracted defeat by attrition and erosion of domestic support? Possible, but unlikely. We'll pull out before this achieves Vietnam-like dimensions. And anyway, is that really what you'd like to see? "Our boys" don't deserve that, considering how many of them signed up for a ticket out of the ghetto (whichever ghetto that is).

I think the best we can hope for is a swift conclusion of hostilities, followed by elections at home that put better people in the driver's seat... though here in the States I'm not sure who that would be.

My co-workers are actually saying, "Boy, this is taking longer than I thought it would."

What, a week? They thought it would take longer than a fucking week? Do they think this is Platoon? Jesus Christ, that's infuriating.
 
 
Jack Fear
14:57 / 24.03.03
Wishing desperately for the whole thing to be over is not the same as being bored.

If anything, it demonstrates a high degree of engagement with something too painful to bear.
 
 
Jack Fear
15:00 / 24.03.03
Well, what do you mean by "lose"?

I think he wants the Iraqi Republican Guard to occupy Swansea and start shooting civilians.

Cos, y'know, that'd be cool.
 
 
The Natural Way
15:18 / 24.03.03
Yeah, his 'only I exist' style. That one.
 
 
Slim
15:30 / 24.03.03
What a disgusting thread. Being against the war is one thing, being for a victory by Saddam Hussein is another. There's no way in hell I want us to lose the war or else it will just make everything worse. Let's just put a bullet in Saddam's head and be done with it. We can start focusing on how to make things better.

Another good reason to hope for a quick end is that a quick war puts a lot of distance time-wise between now and the 2004 election. Hopefully the war-time support for President Bush will have dwindled by then.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
15:39 / 24.03.03
Let's just put a bullet in Saddam's head and be done with it. We can start focusing on how to make things better.


Not entirely convinced that the execution of the political leader who essentially created the Iraqi nation out of an area of land - however much his people may hate him - by an invading force of questionable legitimacy from countries with a poor track record of dealing fairly with peoples in the region, viewed with grave suspicion by the majority, is going to improve matters.
 
 
Slim
16:15 / 24.03.03
Quite right, Nick. Unfortunately, I doubt us simply arresting Saddam and putting him on trial is going to do much either. I should change my earlier statements. While I think the best choice would be to arrest him, if I were alone with Mr. Hussein in a bunker with a M-16 I'd almost certainly shoot him.
 
 
Baz Auckland
16:36 / 24.03.03
At least if they get him alive (which I doubt they will allow), the subsequent trial would end up showing the fault of not just Saddam, but also the US/UK/etc. admins. in giving him weapons and spurring him on for years. It would be like the McLibel trial, but much much worse.

The less people that die for this pointless war the better. I think those in charge just see this as a history lesson already written or a video game. In those contexts you can imagine the US military being killed for months in urban fighting without realising the horror of it, or bombing Bagdhad to the ground. How else could these same types go through with Vietnam for some many years?
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
18:42 / 24.03.03
I'm confused...we started the war by trying to assassinate Hussein, wait, I'm sorry, but taking out a "target of opportunity". Isn't that sort of thing prohibited by the treaties the US has signed?

And Jack, it is something that I find infuriating that people are saying it should have been over in a few days. They had in their mind that the US would walk in, the soldiers would surrender and our soldiers would be showered with flowers and freshly baked bread. Isn't that what all the ads said would happen?
 
 
Ganesh
19:05 / 24.03.03
I guess I might have felt like laughing (in a liberate-this-u-fags kinda way) if those poor sods hadn't looked so shit-scared. I mean, they're what, maintenance workers?
 
 
Jack Fear
19:09 / 24.03.03
Who the hell are you, and what have you done with the real Ganesh?
 
 
Ganesh
19:26 / 24.03.03
Spending too much time over on Cross + Flame, I fear...
 
 
MJ-12
22:30 / 24.03.03
Isn't that sort of thing prohibited by the treaties the US has signed?

Ah, but you see, once the war starts, SH is transformed as if by magic into the head of Iraq's military, and thus a legit target.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
23:39 / 24.03.03
Damn, that's some powerful magick. I wonder what power Bush called on to unleash that change.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
01:39 / 25.03.03
Allah
 
 
Linus Dunce
10:36 / 25.03.03
It's not that powerful a magic. Bush himself is comander-in-chief of the US armed forces. A head of state can hold military rank. But I wouldn't like to defend it in court.

Wanting someone to lose a war is not the same as wanting someone to lose a football match. Do you see dead bodies lying all over the pitch at the final whistle? No. And the coalition forces will not lose quickly because of the sheer quantity of resources. So a coalition defeat would result in many more deaths and injuries on both sides. And deaths and injuries are the reason we are anti-war, n'est pas?
 
 
rizla mission
10:49 / 25.03.03
In brief:

If US/UK lost in a sudden 'ok, fuck it, we're going home' way, that would be really cool. But there's not exactly much chance of that happening.

And if (as is far more likely) they lose gradually after dragging the whole deal into a horrible FUBAR Vietnam type situation, well that would just be shitty for all concerned.

So no, I guess I don't want them to 'lose'.

Whcih I now notice is basically what Ignatius was saying justy before me.
 
  
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