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Newbism

 
  

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Quantum
13:08 / 21.03.03
Taken from this thread in the Headshop

The protean cultural protocols on the web have given rise to some interesting behaviour, especially in terms of Status. For example Barbelith (like almost all BBSs/forums/chatrooms) has a social structure similar to a real-life club or group.

On most boards Status is dependant on;

1)time spent on the board (how long you've been here)
2)effort spent on the board (number of posts)
3)quality of posts (elegant, concise, entertaining posts better)
4)respect afforded by the community (which other posters you befriend)
5)explicit special status (Moderator, the star system etc.)

What do we think about Newbie-ism, the discrimination against newcomers to chatrooms? A Newbie to one site may be a Moderator on another, a respected authority on a subject, or your Dad.

It's common to ignore (or not reply to) the posts of Logins you don't recognise. There are lots of reasons to discriminate against newbies and it's socially acceptable.

So, Newbism- a valid concern or bunch of nonsense?
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
13:19 / 21.03.03
A bunch of nonsense if you're an old-timer, a matter of life and death if you're new.

I genuinely don't see it as much of a concern here, I don't think newbies are treated as badly here as you suggest, let's ask Anna or Toksik about how they feel. I think there's a certain style that is required for smooth entry, innercircle was more ridiculed for what he was saying rather than for being new, but if he'd been less dogmatic then even he would have found a place in our cold reptilian hearts.

With newsgroups I've tended to do things the 'proper' way, lurk for a bit, not post straight away and be prepared to accept that people on the board may take a while to get used to me and there may be mistakes along the way.

The problem in my limited experience, is rarely the structures not being willing to accept new people, it's that the new people aren't willing to show patience and find their place in the structure.

And that wasn't supposed to sound quite as authoritarian and Outer Churchy as it did.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:25 / 21.03.03
Can we move this to the Policy, please?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:43 / 21.03.03
i don't know...if we mean "is this a problem on Barbelith?", then it goes to the policy, but I think Quantum is asking more generally "how does prejudice function in online communities/chatrooms, where the usual cues of race, social class and gender are either invisible or visible in different ways?"

I think it fit into the "But I'm on your side...", but we could have a new thread on it =- Quantum, would you mind if I changed the topic abstract a bit to make it clear that we're not talking about "how do we address this problem on Barbelith"?

There's another thread by slinkyvagabond that might be useful as well - when I have a sec I will link it up...
 
 
Char Aina
14:05 / 21.03.03
ignored on barbelith?

certainly seem to be an awful lot, but then i assumed that that was because what i had to say was shit.


treated badly?

certainly not often enough to notice a trend for it.

the 'initiation' i was given into how one is expected to post here was not entirely pleasant, but then that would probably be at least mostly my fault too. i think everyone expects new posters to read the FAQ and be lurking before posting, which in practise i rarely do.

as nick mentioned, there are folks here who expect a very high level of skill in expression and knowledge, and against whom to argue is extremely taxing. i am not usually too impatient to find out about something, but i am often too impatient to carefully word a response/post and check it for possible misinterpretation.


so to answer your question, no i dont think barbelith is 'mean to the new kids in school', but i do think that it can be very unrelenting if the new kid does not fit the mold already accepted here.

an elitism that protects the board but also limits it slightly.
(i say slightly, because i think that judging by some other boards, the shit you would have to wade through if this was not the case would be unbearable, and would in itself be a limitation)
 
 
Tryphena Absent
21:03 / 21.03.03
In order to enter a community smoothly you have to take a little time to know it. My entry in to Barbelith took a lot longer then most would imagine, I've been on the board for over a year and I lurked prior to my wondrous arrival here. After speaking to someone else who shall not be named I realised that it's quite common to have a slow integration to 'lith. In that way it differs to most boards online where you can jump in feet first and not get hazed quite as much but I generally expect that anyone with a bit of common sense tends to be fine here. Having said that I showed the board to a friend the other day and his word for it was 'weird' so maybe my inherent weirdness loves the weirdness of here.

no i dont think barbelith is 'mean to the new kids in school', but i do think that it can be very unrelenting if the new kid does not fit the mold already accepted here.

I think the internet in general is mean to newbies and this place is no exception but at least the meanness* doesn't make the board. Very few people who don't fit actually bother posting here, we get a fair share of trolls but the handling of them is reasonable, not too cruel, and very open. Barbelith is nice, let's all pat ourselves on the back and drink virtual tea.

*meanness- is it a word? If so have I spelt it wrong? This is Headshop you know, it's meant to be serious.
 
 
Icicle
13:01 / 22.03.03
I'm very new around here so this matter is of particular interest to me! Barbelith seems to have very high standards of posting, so if it takes a while to integrate then to me it's worth it, I do agree that it's up to the new people to be patient, and to me it's more genuine than if someone's hyper friendly when you are a stranger.
Though I'm still a stranger round here, I'm finding that I actually get quite a lot of out of reading and writing posts here, There's the aspect of being chatty and friendly which new people don't enjoy, but there's also the more 'intellectual aspect' seeing what other people have to say, and thinking and analysing your own views, and this part is less dependent on who you know. What I like about barbelith and also being new is that it's completely dependent on what you say rather than who you are, what you look like etc.
The internet is a completely different medium and it is taking me a while to get used to that, of course if you speak to someone in the pub and they ignore you then that's bad but on the net it's different.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
13:15 / 22.03.03
I don't see that there's anything wrong with responding more positively or fully to elegant or intelligent postings than to half-formed rantings. Neither is the exclusive province of 'newbie' or 'Great Old One'.

Although somewhat to my annoyance I have never seen Tom post anything which is complete rubbish.
 
 
Char Aina
14:17 / 22.03.03
I don't see that there's anything wrong with responding more positively or fully to elegant or intelligent postings than to half-formed rantings.

was that directed at my admission of occasional laziness?
that was supposed to be me showing that i understand that when i perhaps leave something out of my posts in terms of effort, folks are not as willing as i would like to do any work on my behalf to aid comprehension. i realise that this is a failing of mine, and i agree with what you are saying above.


it's a meritocracy on barbelith, and although that is one of its strengths, it sometimes hurts to be told in no uncertain terms that you are in the lower echelons of that society.
 
 
Locust No longer
16:16 / 22.03.03
I've been posting on Barbelith off and on for about four or five years now, and I still feel like a 'newbie.' But that doesn't bother me at all, actually. Because, good lord, this is just a message board. A very good one, but a message board none the less. I can't take it that seriously nor do I have my feelings hurt if people tell me I'm stupid which has happened many a time on this board, although more when I was starting to post 'back in the day.' I think it can be intimidating to post, but, honestly, I think people should lighten up. I actually like it when people stir up trouble, and shake some of the towers a few of the more 'respected' posters sit in. Rowdy discourse is a lot more interesting than polite chin stroking IMHO. However,I do realize that an anarchic conversation could very well devolve into 'Fuck off, scroat bag' comments which really doesn't fit this board at all. I'm still wondering how that doesn't happen, actually. Sorry, I'm digressing.
 
 
Char Aina
16:23 / 22.03.03
it doesnt happen because when it does, no one plays along.

would anyone else enjoy the opportunity to show thier more base nature occasionally? a respite from having to think too hard?

i suppose theres always other forums for that.

"if you dont like it, go to russia!" and so on.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
21:03 / 22.03.03
was that directed at my admission of occasional laziness?

No.
 
 
Salamander
00:56 / 24.03.03
I have been a member of this board for just over 24hrs now and have expierianced nothing unpleasant. In my opinion, every primate group has it's own initiation rituals which one must "suffer" before being expected. The nature of said rituals usually being tailored as to content to fit the individuals involved, both initiated and not, the circumstances ect. I don't see how message boards are any different, except that the worse one may have to endure is the written chastisment of ones fellows.
 
 
Foust is SO authentic
02:43 / 24.03.03
I always find myself dismissing out the hand the posts of newbies on other boards where I'm a more established member. And I think that happened to me for a long time here, too; it only seems like I've been noticed in the last 2-3 monthes.

It's probably just a matter of being more concerned with what you're familiar with.
 
 
illmatic
07:05 / 24.03.03
Barbelith does seem to have a constant dialogue going on about itself, which is interesting. How the Board is evolving , what it's protocols are etc. I've spent some time this weekend on posting to a mailing list I get, and all I can say is Thank God for Barbelith, and it's self critical culture.

I don't know how newbies would be received if they turned up and took up a contentious position - say, pro-War, over in the Switchboard. I think they get cut less slack to a degree.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:13 / 24.03.03
Moderator hat - this thread doesn't seem to be evolving into a Head Shop topic, and, since the possibility for such responses would be split between this thread and the "But I'm on your *side*...." thread, I'm going to propose moving this to the Conversation, where more people will be likely to share their experiences of being new both to Barbelith and elsewhere.
 
 
Olulabelle
09:52 / 24.03.03
I think if you take your time to get a 'feel' of the board you plan to join, watch and learn and assess whether you think what you have to say will be of a/interest and b/in the right tone, then you generally get welcomed. This is certainly true of Barbelith. I have been reading posts, and trawling through old threads for about 2 months now, I've read the wiki, I've read the threads on 'what went wong with Lith', I've read all about the possibility of closing the board, and I've read threads in all of the different areas, not just the ones that specifically interested me. I've read recommended books, looked up stuff I don't know on the net, regularly read the barbeblogs and when I thought it was about time I stopped lurking I considered carefully what my first post would be and tried not to start a topic which had already been discussed.

And gee, wouldn't you know, but everyone was nice!

However on a board like this it's very easy to say something which sounds utterly thick, or unconsidered, regardless of your usual conversational ability. Personally, I think that's because it's not a board filled with conversations just to pass the time of day, and mostly people appear to be the kind who like to think in the abstract. That's what attracted me in the first place. If you wanna join a board where waiting to talk is not the norm, and where people actually do listen, I think you have to expect that when they listen they won't always agree. Or another way of putting it is if you feel like talking about the colour of Julieanne Moore's frock on the Oscars, perhaps some sections of Barbelith aren't the ideal place to do it.

As a newbie I'd like to think if I do say something totally pointless or vaccuous in a conversation which doesn't warrant it, someone will pull me up on it (kindly) and point me in the direction of exactly why they think so.

And finally....When is a newbie not a newbie? (This is not a joke, although it could be highly amusing. Perhaps someone should start a thread on newbie jokes?!) My decision to stop lurking has resulted in a sudden spurt of thread starting and posting. At what point do I stop being new and become a true Lith-er instead? 10 posts? 100 posts? 1 year of being here? 1 brilliant comment?

It is hard to be new, but I guess the only way to get past it is to know that everyone has to have been new at some point, and they must have been welcomed in order to still be here.
 
 
Quantum
10:17 / 24.03.03
Ta Haus.
This is not about Barbelith, there are enough threads about threads about Barbelith. I used B'lith as an example of the phenomenon because everybody who posts here is familiar with it (by definition).
I should have included my original disclaimer;
*disclaimer* I have been welcomed on Barbelith and feel it reflects these tendencies a lot less than most places, this is not just another attack on cliques or exclusion by a mewling newbie- if your first thought was that it was, examine your subconscious prejudices. You Newbist. *end disclaimer*
I'm more interested in the cultural phenomenon as a whole, as it is prevalent on message boards of all shapes and sizes.
Hermes Nuclear has a point about initiation rituals (above) and hazing was mentioned, but I don't think there is any ritual per se to advance from 'newbie' to 'Member'. On many boards they have a marker to show how much someone has posted (eg stars) and attach adjectives to it to denote status, but posting volume alone is not the only factor.

"I always find myself dismissing out the hand the posts of newbies on other boards where I'm a more established member. And I think that happened to me for a long time here, too; it only seems like I've been noticed in the last 2-3 monthes. (The Disturbing Results of Foust's Rorshach Test, above)
EXACTLY. It is common behaviour, and whether you are dismissive or being dismissed depends on what board you happen to be on.
You don't get that so much with racist, classism etc. - switching from oppressed to oppressor and back is uncommon.

My concern is that this sort of bias encourages parochialism online, it deters people from trying new places and rewards staying on only one board. This runs contrary to the egalitarian hopes for the net as a place for free expression and interchange of ideas etc.
I guess what I'm saying is that the internet chatroom culture is in danger of becoming a lot of very small ponds with a few big fish in each, which is stagnation.
 
 
Quantum
10:24 / 24.03.03
Olulabelle- good point. My experience was similar although I only lurked for about a week- I'm impatient!.
When is a newbie not a newbie? Depends who you ask. I would say once you have started a strong, interesting, new thread that would constitute acceptance by the board. But that's a very rough measure..

My secondary motivation for this thread is to encourage new posters to get involved, as part of my ongoing war on non-participation and lethargy- all you lurkers, evolve into posters! you have nothing to lose but your anonymity!
 
 
Sax
12:32 / 24.03.03
Barbelith can sometimes seem like the best place in the world, and sometimes the most mean-spirited, uninspiring and joy-less activity of your life. Fortunately, the latter tends to happen when you're feeling particularly wound up, anxious or shitty yourself and incidence of it are far outweighed by the former.

Olulabelle has pretty much hit a whole bunch of markers with that post. Barbelith threads really are like a conversation in the pub... you walk up, listen for a bit, decide if you've got anything to add and then chuck in your two penn'orth at an appropriate point. If you offer valid argument, debate or just a cracking good gag, then you'll obviously be accepted pretty much immediately, and like anywhere else on the web if you intimate that you might be female then any number of posters will be falling over themselves to welcome you to Barbelith.

As for seniority... well, does it matter? You're as good as your last post, bucko.
 
 
Icicle
12:46 / 24.03.03
I've just looked up parochialism in the dictionary (!)so now I’ll try and give an answer to your question about boards in general rather than just Barbelith. I think that discrimination about Newbies exists but isn’t that just human nature, to guard territories. On a noticeboard you’ve got a lot less cues to go on, in life you can make judgements based on all the five senses but all you’ve got on a noticeboard is a bunch of words. It may be that making a judgement about someone takes longer so people are more wary.
 
 
pomegranate
18:44 / 24.03.03
The only other board I ever posted on had yr join date and number of posts right under yr name, as well as yr location. That makes it much easier to be biased towards people based on such things, altho' obviously if you've been around here a minute you know who's been here a while and who posts the most.
The last board I was on, the people could be very hostile to one another at times. Threats of meatspace physical violence occurred when there were disagreements. There was even a token graphic people would display that read 'STFU NEWBIE!' when some hapless newcomer would ask a question they all deemed stupid or what have you.
Needless to say, I find this a more civilized board!
Oh, on this other board of which I speak, you could look up all the posts by one person, so it was easier to decide if you liked or disliked someone based on their posts. At least in a speedier fashion.
 
 
Olulabelle
19:01 / 24.03.03
...and like anywhere else on the web if you intimate that you might be female then any number of posters will be falling over themselves to welcome you to Barbelith.

Sax,

Pardon?

Really?!

That's kinda depressing isn't it? After all, it's not like Lith is lacking in it's share of intelligent, articulate female posters.

Damn. And here was me thinking it was all to do with my stunning conversational skills...
 
 
Char Aina
21:05 / 24.03.03
there may be several female posters, but the newbies have yet to shoot you down.

it's like the pub comparison before.
 
 
Sax
05:50 / 25.03.03
Olulabelle: Sorry, "sardonic" was the order of the day yesterday. Today I am happy and bright.
 
 
Quantum
11:03 / 23.10.05
*bump* Is Barbelith mean to new posters just because they're new? In this post matt man, mystery, meatball says

I'm just asking for a little bit more tolerance on the part of the older posters. Okay? I'm simply asking for the older posters to set an example; be kind, be mature.

Teach us gently the error of the newbie's ways.


which again reflects the idea that as you spend time on a board you gain status, power and responsibility. Is it so? Does Barbefame or length of service imply more of a responsibility to be tolerant, wise, and kind? I'm thinking of an example where someone who in real life is a parent, university professor and nobel peace prize winner joins the board they're more likely to hold these values than, say, I am, no matter how long I've posted here.
 
 
Ganesh
18:41 / 23.10.05
I think that, if one supposes long-term posters to have any sort of responsibility to give kind, useful advice to newbies, then newbies have an at least equal responsibility to take advice well. Too often, IMHO, it's the perceived lack of sugar coating that becomes the issue, rather than what might the newbie might learn from the exchange. What comes across as whining, to me, is when a given newbie seems unable to get past the idea that criticism offered isn't 'nice' enough, in order to consider the possibility that it's legitimate.

Serious question: when someone's just appeared, hasn't posted a great deal and we've no idea whether they're even going to stick around, why should older posters invest time and effort in them? Especially if they seem unable to take advice or criticism?
 
 
*
19:58 / 23.10.05
Well, I suppose, because some old posters complain that new posters don't post enough. It seems fair that if we want newbies to post more, we should be sort of friendly when they do, provided what they're posting isn't disrespectful or utterly valueless nonsense (by which I mean, for instance, strings of random syllables with no content whatsoever— unless that was invited, such as in that thread in Creation just now).
 
 
Ganesh
20:20 / 23.10.05
Oh sure, it seems a little unfair to be "mean" to newbies (in general) and also complain that newbies (in general) don't post enough. It seems to me, though, that sometimes people arrive with a certain sense of entitlement regarding the extent to which they should be afforded not merely patience from more established posters when they screw up but also respect when they subsequently voice their conclusion that, on Barbelith, political correctness has gone ma(aaaa)d, etc. This sort of response to criticism tends to burn up patience/kindness/niceness fast.
 
 
*
20:55 / 23.10.05
Agreed. And I don't think new people should get more slack cut for them than established posters. I'm just pointing out that justified or not, newcomers to the board are afraid to post, and this is why newcomers to the board don't post, for all those who periodically wonder. Is there something that can be done about that? Should they be wary of (y)our mighty mallets?
 
 
Ganesh
21:11 / 23.10.05
I agree that, from what we're told by people who do eventually post here and from what's sometimes posted elsewhere, that fear of TEH SMAKCDOWN is a major factor in newbies not posting. I'm aware, though, that there's a wide range of opinion here as to whether this is, in and of itself, such a Bad Thing that it'd make tolerating stuff we'd otherwise not tolerate worthwhile. If that makes sense.

I guess we then get into whether/how Barbelith might be improved, which is probably more the remit of the Policy thread.
 
 
Mysterious Transfer Student
21:30 / 23.10.05
I'm part of the intake resulting from youse all deciding to re-open (vetted) entry a few months back - the 5100-uppers, as none of us call ourselves. Having read the board for over a year and been broadly simpatico to its style, content, culture, politics to begin with, I have to say my welcome's been very warm. Though I'm not a very prolific poster, I'm always gratified when reactions to my comments fall to the right of the "Lead Balloon/2nd Coming" bell curve. Having met one or two established members socially, and found them to be fully human, generous and talented dancers to boot, was also a boon.

That said, perhaps I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop.... I think the sense of irritation some older posters feel with newbies most often comes out when our posts seem gratingly naive or ill-informed, rather than out-and-out offensive. "We already covered this!" In fairness all the content of the last five years or so is still there, and ancient threads can be fun and informative to read for those who have the time. Still, I often find myself holding back comments for fear of appearing a rube, and I've never yet posted in the Switchboard or any of the tougher fora where it seems likely I'll get in over my head.

Pardon my rambling. I'd just like to reassure established posters that most of the time they are the soul of graciousness! As Tanya Donelly* once said: "It's very possible that you could die tomorrow - so just be friggin' nice."

*Yes, I was a Belly fan. I am a very, very old man who can longer read the NME because my eyes have gone.
 
 
Grey Cell
22:39 / 23.10.05
I've been around for a while now — quite a while if you include lurking — and I still consider myself a newbie, mostly because I have never been all that active here (three new topics and fiftysomething posts, I think, none of which exactly rocked this place).

I found Barbelith quite refreshing and welcoming, and by the time I started posting I knew pretty much what to expect. I've been treated well here. You people are nicer than you think, trust me

If I don't post often, that's mostly for more personal reasons that are not very relevant to Barbelith as a whole — including, but not limited to, limited time and energy I'm prepared to spend online, not being a native English speaker and thus wary of fast-paced, high-intensity debates, and perhaps most important of all: being somewhat jaded from earlier stints on other messageboards(*). In fact, I've largely stopped posting on any of the boards I still frequent, except for Barbelith. So there.

If I still feel a bit like an outsider, then I have only myself to blame for that, and not some elitist Inner Circle (which is a quite common phenomenon on the Internet, but certainly no more so than IRL in my experience).

Besides, I do think it's up to the newcomer to prove hirself first. I see the same thing in the dojo I'm currently an assistant in: all new people are made welcome, but after a few months there is a clear distinction between the people who are motivated and really go for it, and the tourists who just see it as a hobby and only come to practice when they really have nothing better to do. Usually, it's the latter group who complain the most about anything and everything (including how they're not advancing fast enough - after all, they pay just as much as that other guy and he's climbing in the ranks a lot faster than they are, it's not fair... you know what I mean).
Why put time and effort into someone who may up and leave again next week, in search of pastures greener? The door is always open, as it should be, but we're not going to pull you in. We're there to help, but ultimately your training is your own responsability.

I see the same principles at work on messageboards, except of course in a far more abstract way, and with people getting away with a lot more because of the anonimity inherent to this medium.
Ideally, it's a pure meritocracy, as toksik mentioned earlier. It has its drawbacks, but as long as people keep it civil, I can't immediately think of a better way.


*) Oh, and I have a tendency to write overly long rants once I get going. Q.E.D.
I'm working on it, honestly.
 
 
*
22:55 / 23.10.05
You know, come to think of it, on the whole, established posters seem to me to be a lot harder on each other than on new posters. I mean, people who have been around awhile have preconceptions about one another, and these as often lead to people jumping all over an established poster based on those preconceptions. ("There you go being condescending again, Haus...") This may or may not be accurate; posters' previous histories color people's opinions of them, as often negatively as positively (and an initial positive attitude towards someone can create backlash when they say something which one disagrees with). Also, established posters feel freer to lay into each other when there are disagreements. So I really think new posters do get a lot of slack. But at the same time one can regard a seeming knock-down-drag-out between two established posters (who will go round the pub together next week as if nothing had happened) as evidence that if anyone disagrees with them, they'll get the same treatment.
 
 
matthew.
00:52 / 24.10.05
hey, it's me....

I guess my whole post series here, would be better suited here. But anyway, I'm going to make a stab to reiterate what I think.

Ganesh said that if the older posters have a responsibility to the newer posters, then the newbies should be responsible to take that advice. I agree completely. That's why I'm here. I think this whole discussion on the "What's Wrong with Barb" thread and here is exactly what the newbies need. Don't send them to the Headshop, where it gets a little confusing. Send them here. This may sound saccarhine (sorry, spelling deity), but I'm really learning from this experience. I think you older posters might see a more enlightened Matt from now on....

(oh everybody hugs now... [hugs, then coughs, then does something overtly masculine]
 
  

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