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Pacifists, do your homework

11:31 / 20.03.03

This link takes you to an mp3 file of a radio show, where an Iraqi immigrant argues with a well-intentioned, but abismally incoherent pacifist. It starts funny, but soon it gets really uncomfortable. It reminds every happy-go-lucky "war is bad, don't do war, mkey?" pacifist that the mess we're in is not as simple as it seems.

This can give you some food for thought, and can serve as an exercize: Which points would you raise to counter the immigrant's points?

We're The Great Old Ones Now

11:59 / 20.03.03

My objections to the war are not per se pacifism, but pragmatic. I think it's a dumb war. That it also is possibly illegal, definitely unilateral (there's a lovely piece in the Times about the Coalition of the Willing being a bunch of countries that can't say 'no', and Uzi Arad, the former Mossad Director, described the war as 'very much an American-British effort'), and may result in countless civilian deaths is an added anti-bonus.

12:22 / 20.03.03

I have absolutly no faith in this ultimately resulting in a better situation. A lot of people will die, and then another dictator will be put in power, and then it will carry on.

Maybe they'll get some Free Trade Zones. Darkies luuuuurve Free Trade Zones.

12:37 / 20.03.03

I'm not able to get to the link as I'm at work and don't have the technical whatzits to listen to it.

But in general I agree with Nick. But also it's the fact that there was a due process for dealing with Iraq laid out by the United Nations which D'bya and his cronies blatently ignored and destabilised apparently so it could reach this very spot. International War with American Forces at the forefront.

The way they went about it sets a dangerous precendent for any country that has a big enough beef with a neighbour to weigh on in and say that they are just "Waging a War against Terrorism, like the Americans". And once that happens where does it end? If the United Nations (which is not YET dead in the water) is garotted into hell, then the future looks pretty bleak to me.

I don't think that things are that desparate yet, the coming months will show us exactly what has been "won" and "lost" on this planet. I certainly don't think that I as a westerner know what's best for an arab nation, I'm definately not that naieve. It's a pity that there has not been anyone here who feels they are able to speak from a non-western perspective about all of this. For quite a while I have felt that our discussions have been quite one-sided. Not really sure what if anything can be done about that though.

12:47 / 20.03.03

Yeah, my experience of discussing anti-war sentiments, in person and via interwebnet, is that people who think those sentiments are based on pacifism are being dishonest or mislead to some degree. The objections to an imperial, anti-environmental, tactically lopsided and hazardous-to-everyone-but-the-profiteers* war have little to do with pacifism. I imagine quite a few of these so-called 'pacifists' would like to get into Georgie's bedroom one night with a hammer and duct tape.

*Does anyone have a more concise way to describe this dimension? I mean, in previous US wars at least the American citizenry was safe -- housewives and bank tellers could go about their business. This war seems calculated to increase the risk of getting hygenists and accountants dynamited on their way to work.

13:28 / 20.03.03

Cautious 'good call' to the starter of this thread.

I'm not sure I like all this sneering at pacifism - cos when it comes down to it, has there ever been a simpler, more justified and basically nicer ideology?

But I take the point about the utterly insubstantial-ness of a lot of the anti-war slogans and positions which are being repeated a lot of the time. Obviously it goes without saying I agree with them, but you don't get a dynamic, forward thinking movement from a crowd of people giving indiscriminate rounds of applause to endless lines of people queuing behind the megaphone for their chance to say "war is bad, Bush is a wanker".

The rhetoric is completely entrenched - facts, new ideas etc. have just been completely forgotten.

Bizarrely, I actually had a shot at addressing the crowd at the town centre today and, though I'm pretty bad at composing stuff to say on the spot, tried to throw out a few hazy facts and issues I've read about in recent weeks - the underlying aims of the American Far-Right and the whole New American Century thing, the precedent created on pre-emptive strikes, the refusal of Isreal & the US to admit weapons inspectors etc, the idea of protesting against oil companies and arms manufacturers as well as the governments etc.

Didn't get it all out, but I dunno, it seemed like I was the only one there trying to look at things in any more depth than the "war is bad, don't do war, mkey?" attitude. With so many school kids and people who clearly aren't normally political who've latched onto the boycott and the protest movement, I felt it was kind of necessary..

I'd recommend anyone who's going to any protests to have something thoughtful in mind in case they get a chance to speak - we DON'T want to come over as a bunch of slogan spouting retards..