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America - NOT a bad thing

We're The Great Old Ones Now

12:32 / 19.03.03

It's worth reminding ourselves at this point of a few things:

America has a constitution that the United Kingdom should beg for.

It has an electoral system which in principle should be the envy of the world.

For whatever reasons of realpolitik, the US was the protector of the non-Soviet world during the Cold War, and though during that time the West was responsible for much that is ghastly, and supported regimes which were and are clearly reprehensible, the perceived and likely actual threat from a Russian Empire in the garb of a Soviet state was monstrous.

This administration and the forces which guide it are not the American people as a whole, who are by and large a fair-minded lot, if not especially cosmopolitan.

I just wanted to say all that because it's very easy to start answering the Europe-bashing and heavy-handed bullying we're seeing from Rumsfeld and the gang by getting furiously anti-American, and that's both mistaken and counter-productive. I'm not thinking of anyone here, and I don't even know if it's necessary to say any of this. I just wanted to say "the US is not George W., and it's not this war."

12:55 / 19.03.03

Mighty fucking big of you to say so.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

13:27 / 19.03.03

I don't really know how to take that.

13:37 / 19.03.03

Oh, I think you do.

Jack Rock-a-Pops

13:48 / 19.03.03

From the topic abstract: "America is basically a good thing"

From Less Talk, More Rock: "What exactly are the great historical accomplishments of "your" race that make you proud to be white? Capitalism? Slavery? Genocide? Sitcoms? Guns? War? Pollution? Addiction? Nafta? Thigh-master? This is your fucking white-history, my "friend". so why don't we start making a history worth being proud of and start fighting the real fucking enemy"

ONLY NICE THINGS

13:59 / 19.03.03

Just to stop this being a George and Mildred incomprehension-off ("What did I do?" "You know what you did!" "But I don't!" "Well, you should!" "So tell me!" "Why should I do everything for you?")...

At a guess, Jack Fear is objecting to what he says as patronage and condescension in Nick's post, along with the implicit suggestion that, just because Europeans are getting bitched out by the US executive, we shouldn't descend to the same level. Nick, whose post was, he feels, a necessary counterbalance to the growing feelings of helpnessness-fuelled antagonism towards the general concept of "the US", and an attempt to locate anger where it belongs - the government rather than the people of the United States of America, has not considered that it might be taken that way, and his confusion is thus genuine.

I apologise pre-emptively for putting words in both of your mouths, and admit whole-heartedly that I am completely mistaken, on condition that you either explain *how* I am wrong or undertake to stop delivering your responses to each other in collaborative haiku form.

14:09 / 19.03.03

Motion seconded and applauded because Haus can obviously type faster than I can.

There is enough going on right now without decending into internal conflict.

14:23 / 19.03.03

I'm glad Nick posted this as I agree that there's been a little too much bashing of America going on. America may be fucking up right now but I still love my country.

And I may get attacked by this but yes, I am quite proud of capitalism.

14:47 / 19.03.03

I should hope we're all well aware here that a country does not = it's governmental / corporate power structure.

The kind of mindset that associates entire nations with the policies of their controllers should really, really be avoided at all costs.

This whole "America's bad!" "No, America's good!" shit - forfucksake, surely we all realise that defining a continent populated by millions of people of every variety imaginable, performing every kind of activity imaginable and holding every kind of view imaginable, to say nothing of animals, plantlife and a myriad of inanimate objects etc. etc. etc. as being 'GOOD' or 'BAD' is, y'know, kind of simplistic? Just a little bit?

Nobody with any brains should ever be saying "Fuck [insert name of country here". Let's stick to saying "Fuck President Bush and his government, his political allies, the corporate interests who support him and those who share the destructive and ignorant aspects of his worldview". Which isn't quite as catchy, but whatchagonnado?

Hate to be a patronising, but c'mon now, we do know this already don't we?

We're The Great Old Ones Now

14:53 / 19.03.03

Jack, I truly had no idea. Now I guess I do.

If you're pisssed off, I'm sorry. If pre-empting any possible US-bashing counts as US-bashing, I'm a bad person and I'm sorry again.

This wasn't a formed idea, it was a desire to draw the tooth before it rotted. I spent yesterday lunchtime in a pub hearing about how the US was a bully and Americans don't know shit, and it upset me. I'd guess if you sit in a cafe in New York right now you hear much the same level of informed critique about the French.

Maybe this was a mistake - certainly I could have put it together better - but I was hoping we'd see a litany of US successes and good calls as thoroughly referenced referenced as the more usual Kyoto/ICC horror stories of which I'm as guilty as everyone else.

14:59 / 19.03.03

Some of my best friends are American. They can be a little sssibilant but they have a great sense of rhythm. And they make wonderful household pets.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

15:05 / 19.03.03

Fuck. Okay, okay, I'm a bad person, burn me, feed my entrails to eagles, close the thread.

15:15 / 19.03.03

Came off as smug and patronizing, to be honest. And unworthy of you. And frankly unnecessary, for all the reasons Rizla's pointed out.

Unless you're actually dealing with pissheads daaahn the pub, I think any intelligent person realizes that after a certain point kneejerk anti-Americanism says more about the person whose knee is jerking than about the United States itself.

You needn't dignify the ranting of the soaks down at the Quim and Merkin with a response. It would, however, be interesting to examine the cultural attitudes, history, and political conbsciousness that might lead them to hold such sweepoing opinions in the first place: I suspect it's got more to do with their knowledge of American television programs than any personal experience...

We're The Great Old Ones Now

15:25 / 19.03.03

"America has a constitution that the United Kingdom should beg for."

Smug?

Trust me when I say that probably no one in the UK is feeling smug about our system today, whether they support this conflict and this government, or not.

I shouldn't have said that Americans weren't cosmopolitan. That was rude, and I regret it.

As to Rizla's point, I agree it should be obvious. At the same time, a search of Barbelith backthreads will, unless my memory mis-serves me, remind you that in the past, some very stupid things have been said about America, both for and against.

Can we lay this to rest, please? There are more important things than whether I'm a smug Old Euro or not. It was a well-intentioned gesture which I clearly screwed up.

15:37 / 19.03.03

I concede that it was well-intentioned—I never doubted it.

You just caught me in a particularly scratchy mood: I'm equally disgusted with all the rhetoric, pro-war and anti-war, pro-American and anti-American.

Letting it go now.

Hugs.

09:10 / 20.03.03

time to stop being precious about this kind of shit no? [y]our taxes are being turned into iraqi death right now and it is being done so directly in [y]our name. and my house and your house are legitimate targets for retaliation thanks to this being done. the next terrorist attack on us/uk soil will be deserved because of the willful activity of [y]our elected representatives. why have we the right to say that we're in any way good /'not-bad' at the moment?

12:29 / 20.03.03

Why? Because it cuts both ways.

We all agree that the Iraqi people don't deserve to die for the sins of their leader, who is universally acknowledged as a pitiless genocidal monster™ (® Flyboy Enterprises): why, then, would it follow that British and American civilians "deserve" to die for the sins of Messrs. Bush and Blair, about whom there is still some debate? How can your house and my house "legitimate targets," but Basra and Kirkuk not be?

Either everyone deserves it, or no one deserves it.

The minute you write any particular group off, or single any group out as "deserving" of suffering, then you've crossed a line: you're moving into a politics of division and retribution, and away from a politics of reconciliation and justice.

That's a line I'm unwilling to cross.

No one is innocent. That's not precious, that's fact.

We've all got blood on our hands, all the human race, from the days of old Brother Cain. We're going to Hell, every one of us. But we're all going down together, and we're all we've got.

Jack Rock-a-Pops

12:41 / 20.03.03

The other day I was began a personal hate-campaign in my head against every American for either (a) doing the inexcusable and siding with the Bush-Beast or (b) not doing enough to prevent this aberration of democracy and disgusting abuse of authority.

I kind of naively thought that if NZ were going to war, then all the hippies of the land would unite and with bricks and banners let the government know what the people really thought, not what newspaper editors said for them.

Can't say this could honestly happen though, in this most enviable of democratic systems "that the UK should beg for" surely the people should be held somewhat responsible?

Besides they're just SOSOOSOOOOOOO fucking damn spoilt! And annoying! At least 98% of them.

12:50 / 20.03.03

Thats clearly Nick's sock puppet, being used to justify the existence of this thread.

At least, I hope thats what it is.

Regrettable Juvenilia

12:53 / 20.03.03

Jack Fear speaks wisdom. Jack Rock-a-Pops, on the other hand, may well be a made-up suit, else I despair.

As I see it, the only problem with this thread is that many of its points have already been made in this forum - certainly in recent months I haven't seen a thread in the Switchboard in which either the blame wasn't placed squarely with the administration rather than the people at the start, or any actual stereotyping by nationality wasn't rapidly debunked/countered. (At the same time, I'm not surely I entirely agree with a couple of points made in this thread - that the USA helped hold back the evil Soviet empire, or that capitalism is something to be proud of, or that there's anything wrong with the statement that "the US is a bully" once we ascertain that we're talking about how nation states function in terms of international relations...)

12:55 / 20.03.03

I think you're fundamentally misunderstanding my argument.

I'm not arguing that the average American citizen is innocent. I, personally, am guilty as Hell.

But so is the average citizen of Iraq, and to the same degree, and for the same reasons.

Neither he nor I have risen up against our corrupt overlords and instituted a heaven-on-earth utopia.

So drop bombs on all our heads, why don't you?

13:03 / 20.03.03

A purely informatio-gathering question:

How much deference to Bush is there in America? I relaise this may be hard for people to answer (it may not, I don't know), because you'd have to know both countries beyond their international media and beyond the people of Barbelith (which, for me, is the only way I actually have contact with America, really. I doubt very much things espoused by American's here are typical of Americans).

I ask because of something I heard recently that we can atack Blair easier then you can attack Bush because Blair is not our head of state, while Bush is*. This could be a big pile of balls, because we hardly show deference to the Queen but still...

Is the constitution something we should envy so much?

Again, this is a purely toe-tipping tip-toeing info-gathering exercise, as I don't really have an opinion on it. Give me one.

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*I mean that in all the ways it can be read. See how witty my p[unning is??