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Causality

 
 
Perfect Tommy
17:37 / 14.03.03
Viewpoint #1: Magic Circumvents Causality.
Sorcery is what you use to get what you want, when you can't get what you want by pulling the usual levers. From the reverse angle, divination is how you collect information without using the usual channels of the senses.

Viewpoint #2: Magic IS Causality.
A key part of self-transformational work is recognizing that we live in the Now--so whatever grandiose plans or fears we have for the future, we only reach them by concentrating on the tightrope we're on, one step after another. But since the tightrope is often invisible, we use magic to see it.

In your experience, is one of these more right than the other? Or is there another viewpoint, or method of reconciling the two in the middle somewhere?
 
 
ciarconn
18:16 / 14.03.03
Magic circumvents (consensual reality's) causality
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
19:45 / 14.03.03
Causality IS Magick. Consensual reality relies on magick to create the appearance that things are caused by preceding events. Simple causality is an illusion, complex causality is indistiguisable from randomness for the scientists. That anything happens in a way that looks like simple causality is a miracle created by consistent beliefs backed by will.
 
 
iconoplast
19:58 / 14.03.03
the idea of a narrative physics springs to mind, wherein events are associated by their meaning, rather than by some coincidental proximity in spacetime.
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
20:01 / 14.03.03
oooooh, Iconoplast can you explain that some more.
 
 
iconoplast
21:12 / 14.03.03
Well, like...
(Okay: Caveat: I do the visualization thing from that Modern Magic book and I draw sigils but am too lazy to convince myself to forget them so... I have little to no concrete experience of all this. That said...)

I've been reading a lot about Jung lately, especially in conection with Gnosticism, and one of Jung's big ideas was synchronicity. Which he said was two otherwise independent events occuring to the same person which have the same meaning. Or something like that.

So I think magic, as it's kicked around here, is an effort to navigate Meaning - which I think is the human element of experience. What makes our lives something other than a random chain of unrelated and disjointed events.

Instead of saying 'A caused B' because B replaced A spatially and temporally, or because A is connected to B spatially, or precedes B temporally, I have this other causal connection which I think is what I consider Magic, where I say A caused B because A and B have a narrative link. They're connected by meaning. So, like, a ritual or sigil or spell to bring money has a certain meaning. It is linked to an event in your life with the same meaning (getting money), and can be said to be causally related.

Hm. I suppose, actually, that so far I've only thought about this in terms of things being spatially disjointed. Like, ritual, then effect, with no physical link. If temporal disjointing were really allowed, then the ritual to cause something could come after the thing it caused, temporally.

I'm just sort of thinking "out loud," here. But I think saying that Magic obeys a different sort of causality explains why it's been 'disproven' almost as often as it's been 'rediscovered'. If you're looking for these narrative cause and effects, you'll find them. If you're looking for physical links, you won't.
 
 
Quantum
22:57 / 14.03.03
*applauding* yes Iconoplast yes. Hume (famous Scottish philosopher) says something similar- Causality is a psychological law caused by constant conjunction of events.
Magic acts by different laws than causality- sympathy (like affects like) and contagion (once together always together). In terms of Causation Magick is cheating.
 
  
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