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Billy Chang is the key to it all?

 
  

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raggedman
19:11 / 13.03.03
Hi everyone, i'm new here and would just like to say it's nice to meet you all.

sorry for backpedalling but (scratches chin scooby doo style)

'There's one thing that's still bothering me...'
in vol 3 Edith say's that the key to it all was Billy Chang in the end and that it's all in her diaries. The only other info i can get on Billy is that he walked out of history like a ghost.

How was Billy the key? the key to what? if you could even just point me to any clues i'd be grateful

thanks
 
 
Aertho
20:03 / 13.03.03
How inundated are you into the Invisibles? You just asked a question whose answering presupposes that you already have a full understanding of unfolding temporal and fifth dimensional mechanics in the Invisiverse.

Perhaps you do. Perhaps you believe that understanding the Billy Chang part will crystalize your present semi-solid understanding of it all.

I can explain it(in my own interpretation), but I would need to know how much I'll have to compress to do so.
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
09:50 / 14.03.03
That wasn't a patronising answer at all, oh no!
 
 
raggedman
10:07 / 14.03.03
Hi Chesed,
Can't recall a time when i ever had a full understanding of anything let alone abstract metaphysics.

ok, make that full 'concious' understanding, buddha fans.

i had a lot of my own ideas on the nature of the invisiverse and the boards posted here have given me a lot more things to cross reference. like i say in job interviews 'assume medium ignorance and i might pleasently surprise you'

seriously though i'd like to hear your theory and yes i suppose the billy bit is a bit i haven't found full intergration for.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
12:08 / 14.03.03
yeah, that chesed fellow; really is a bit of an elbow at times.

I love these sorta questions. Yknow,
'There's one thing that's been bothering me.....', or,
'I just don't get it without comprehending this one little thing....'

Billy as 'the key' is just a vicious rumour. He's got fuck all to do with it. At least not in the version DC published.
 
 
The Natural Way
12:31 / 14.03.03
Billy strolls off the game-board consciously and deliberately and swaps a star for his head. Y'know - just like everyone else in the book. He was probably the first one in Edith's cell to demonstrate that it could be done.
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
12:50 / 14.03.03
'swaps a star for his head' ?

Either I missed something or not, but that is hilarious. What is he, Wurzle Gummidge? Why not swap cheese for his head... chesed... huh.

I think I get it (in a fifth dimensional way).
 
 
Jack Fear
13:07 / 14.03.03
Essentially, Billy is a John-a-Dreams figure. He susses out what's going on and, as Runce says, walks out of the game. Unlike John, though, he does not return to interact with the remaining players (at least not in any recognizable form).
 
 
Aertho
14:17 / 14.03.03
Lawdy. I was NOT trying to patronizing. I was trying to be clear, without whacking deadgrrl over the head with inane truths like: but it's not SUPPOSED to be linear! Thankyou deadgrrl responding pleasantly.

How the hell am I an elbow? You sore cause I called you back into the game? :P and

I'll be back to fill ya'll in
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
14:22 / 14.03.03
"yeah, it was the 'chinks' that did it. There more into msytic shit than us.

go east for all that kind of thinking."

it's like the sad ole toffs who went on the 60's hippie trail to the far east.

I think Morrison was taking the piss.

cliched.

for a reason. (let the reason be love)
 
 
The Natural Way
16:28 / 14.03.03
Stars swopped for heads?

Sir Miles:

"We will be like them...star-headed....in the transcontinuum"

The star-headed thing is a nice, poetic way of expressing a 5D (5 pointed) consciousness. As opposed to the nasty, unpleasant tentacled shit the baddies normally prattle on about.

The cover of 3:5 expresses it in a different way. I used to go on about it being Edith, but it could be any of the girls. Robin would fit nicely.
 
 
raggedman
17:56 / 14.03.03
isn't there some NLP / magick thing about you always get the answer to the question you asked?

thanks for making me smile on another wise shit e day.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
18:58 / 14.03.03
When I'm bored I dig up threads.
I suppose this is what you do.
How's the book coming?
I'm sure it'll be definitive.

Can I get a free coopy for just being me?
 
 
Aertho
19:45 / 14.03.03
As I see it, the entire flawed universe was created by events in the 20th and 21st centuries. All else was setup and foreplay. This is my Invisiverse theory, which like my Phoenix Force theory, is probably wrong... but it makes perfect sense to me and I hope it might help deadgrrl.

In the early nineties, John A Dreams and King Mob entered a church basement and discovered a room with a huge writhing biomass, referred to in the text as "the orgy of the insect people". But that isn't actually what they saw -the biomass was only what thier minds generated from the information their eyes were taking in. The biomass was actually a fracture point in the continuum, a hole in spacetime, where the fifth dimensional "outside" intersected with four dimensional "universe". The information proved too much for KM and he wound up in an asylum. John A Dreams somehow understood what it really was, and "enterred the biomass", thereby physically crossing over into the "outside" fifth dimension.

Now we have to talk about the nature of the fifth dimension, which is highly theoretical and could spark endless debate. Let's cut to the chase and say one usable truth: the fifth dimension is "outside" of the temporal flow. If you were to be "outside" the four dimensions of our universe, you could potentially step back into it at any point in the timestream... and, you would be completely aware of the entire linear past, present, and future of the timestream, because it would be similar to us looking down at a map and seeing the entirety of a particular region.

This made John A Dreams a random element suddenly(wrong word -because sudden implies a before and after) in the fifth dimension. I theorized that his "sudden step" into the fifth ripped it somehow, causing all four dimensions to exist without the fifth. John A Dreams step "outside" reverberated back and forth along the four dimensions left and created the universe. "Once I was a little light" -he said as Quimper, but we're nowhere near that yet.

With John forever outside the timestream, he was also forever inside the timestream -as part of the entire thing. One could argue that John was merged with the fifth dimensional "universe entity" because of his trespass, but we don't have to talk about that just yet. John became conscious of his pan-dimensional state as more and more indivudals became self-aware and conscious. In this way, John assumed his role as the collection of universal awareness -the Harlequinade. He also retained some self-awareness of his individual human-sized will and found that attached to fifth-dimensional intelligence, thereby becoming another outside-the-game-player, known to some as Satan, to others as the Blind Chessman.

Using these two roles together over millenia, John sought to use the growing self-awareness and self-consciousness(actually aspects of the "healing" fifth dimension) of the remaining four dimensions of the universe to repair the damage he had inadvertantly done. So he stepped in at specific points in the timestream to create the Invisibles. The purpose of these Invisible agents were to push humanity toward the end of time and the repaired completion of the fifth dimension.

As John was everyone, in, out, and along the perimeter of the "universe", he was also all the Invisible College "greys". The alien-like agents that "abducted" certain humans like Dane and Mason, were deep down also aspects of John A Dreams. One of these greys was captured by some malicious human beings and was subjected to torture, rape, and severe burns. This grey was emotionally corrupted and developed the individuality of Mr. Quimper. Over time, this burned grey became affiliated with agents of the Outer Church, and as a telepathic agent of control, served the finite purpose in the timestream of escalating the force and form of human fear -these forces and forms would become known as the Archons.

Eventually, it became necessary to remove Quimper from the Outer Church's influence and return him to the fifth dimension perimeter where he belonged. An elaborate scheme was developed by the Invisibles of the late nineties to attack Quimper in his base at Dulce. But that attack relied completely on a gambit that they would make over a decade in the future -sending another telepathic agent into the past to help them. They found this agent in the form of Ragged Robin.

Okay, I'm getting carpal tunnel. I'm gonna write more later when I rest up.
 
 
A
01:03 / 15.03.03
Not sure if I agree with your theory entirely, Chesed, but the way you phrased it makes it occur to me that what John A' Dreams actually did in the Invisibles was pretty much what Green Arrow stopped the Key from doing in Grant's JLA.
 
 
The Falcon
01:48 / 15.03.03
With a boxing arrow - 'a shot in the right place'. Sweet.
 
 
Aertho
15:21 / 15.03.03
Where was I?

Okay, so Ragged Robin was equipped with a telepathy enhancing implant to help her defeat Quimper, and preparations were made to send her physically back in time. Physical time travel is MUCH different than psychic timetravvel, because while aspects of the mind exist in the fifth dimension and can travel outside of the four others, sending a physical four dimensional object in and through itself rips the timestream continuum.

Nevertheless, an Invisible theorist developed a working timemachine and sent RR back to the early eighties. She acted crazy long enough for John A Dreams(the human Invisible and not-yet-trespassed version that is actually everpresent anyway) and his team of Invisibles to locate her and initiate her into the team. She left the timesuit in a warehouse basement in San Francisco where no one would locate it until she was ready to tell people where to find it.

Over time, with her new band of Invisibles, Ragged Robin and King Mob and the rest got involved with the search for a strange and powerful artifact called the Hand of Glory. The Hand proved to have certain powers over time and space, and was theorized to be a kind of lynchpin for four-dimensional intersections. The team located the Hand, but needed to learn how to use it effectively, so King Mob fell asleep and psychically travelled back in time to the 1920's to meet the Invisibles of that era.

We will return to KM's time in the 1920's after we discuss Ragged Robin's departure from the late nineties. After KM returned with information about the Hand, preparations were made to send RR back to the time she came from. They located a young Takashi Satoh and unearthed the old timesuit for the San Fransisco warehouse. Using radiation from the Hand, retroengineered technology from the timesuit, and liquid processers from Mason Lang's industries, RR was set to return to her original team of Invisibles from the future.

Ragged Robin said her goodbyes and they fired up the timesuit. However, it malfunctioned. The timesuit folded out of four dimensions and got lodged in the fifth, where it began to slide toward different points of timestream intersections, taking RR on a ride throughout history.

One of these "stops" RR found herself in was during a seance with the 1920's Invisibles, King Mob, and the Hand of Glory. Beryl Wyndham, Queen Mab, was a psychic who registered RR's presence in the room, but couldn't quite understand what it really was. Beryl's mind allowed for the Hand of Glory to fully intersect with the lodged timesuit, and the intersection began to warp all of spacetime and the fifth dimension.

Another of the psychics in the room, a young magician named Seaton, or Tom O Bedlam, was drawn into the fifth dimensional fracture, where he experienced fifth dimensional existence and the entirety of the fifth dimension. In that moment, his subsequent fears(amplified by the fifth) and magickal ability condenced the fracture to a singularity back and forth through time, generating the superdense star of the Outer Church. The event warped his mind.

Billy Chang somehow registered all that was happening and willed the Hand to fix and reset the timespace distortions. This act sent KM's astral form back to his body in the nineties, and unlocked the timesuit, which sent RR to her original destination, 2012. Unfortunately, the timesuit's original departure from the 21st century left a rip in the continuum, and RR skipped her descended point and landed right into the supercontext, where she merged with it.

The supercontext occurred in 2012 and merged all 5 dimensions, ending the universe and waking up the "universal entity". John A Dreams' work was done, but the malfunctioning timesuit was still bouncing through the timestream. It eventually crumpled and folded into a church in Philadelphia's basement, in the early nineties. It's trip through the dimensions rendered it unrecognizable to human senses and open to a rip in the fifth dimensional continuum.

Eventually, King Mob and John A Dreams located the broken, original, and discarded timesuit, and John had to put it on. Thus, we end at the beginning.

Billy Chang used the Hand to unlock the timestream -and instantly understood the nature of the Outer Church, whose destruction unlocked the universe.
 
 
LVX23
17:44 / 15.03.03
Wow! Kudos, Chesed. Great theory.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
20:51 / 15.03.03
On Chang becoming Star Headed:

Didn't the "real" Billy Chang languish and die in prison or am I making shit up here?

And "Star Headed" Xorn of the X-Men was rescued from prison.

Not making any direct connections mind you, (Next in December's Issue of PREVIEWS: The New Invisible X-Men with a wraparound acid blotter cover!)

I just love how Morriosn is playing with some of the same toys through an entirely different lens in his X-Work.

That and thanks to the surprising effects of some things I detailed over in der Magick, I'm totally in love with Xorn.
 
 
Aertho
23:00 / 15.03.03
Thanks chris. I hope deadgrrl likes it
 
 
ciarconn
23:08 / 15.03.03
Admirable ideas, Chesed. Brilliant.

On Morrison's reutilization of concepts, I had seen some similarities between Xorn and Jack Frost (as Boddisatvas inside normal life)
 
 
PatrickMM
23:10 / 15.03.03
Nice stuff, Chesed, but I've got one question. If Robin goes right into the supercontext, what version of Robin is seen at the end of the 3.1? Does Robin come back from the supercontext to bring Mob into the supercontext? Or is that Robin a manifestation of John a Dreams? Obviously, that's all theoretical stuff, but I'd like to hear how it fits into your theory.
 
 
Baz Auckland
23:19 / 15.03.03
I never thought of how a timesuit got into the basement. I guess I thought "a" timesuit, not "the" timesuit. Very cool ideas.
 
 
Aertho
23:47 / 15.03.03
Well, you mostly answered your own question.

If Robin goes right into the supercontext, what version of Robin is seen at the end of the 3.1? Does Robin come back from the supercontext to bring Mob into the supercontext? Or is that Robin a manifestation of John a Dreams?

Everyone in the story, deep down, IS John A Dreams. He's the pre-fucking natal peronality that Jack Flint breaks through to. See, John-in-the-fifth dimension merged with the very notion of consciousness, so any of the psychics who were willing enough to self-annihilate their own minds would eventually tap into the everpresent John A Dreams complex structure. -Which is exactly what Jack Flint does.

The supercontext emerges from the point where the Archon believes himself to "Pop"... as Archons are intrinsically manifestations of human fears, his "Pop" meant fear=gone. The supercontext blossomed from that 4-dimensional point. KM was undergoing the 5-d merge when RR emerged to see him. So you're exactly right.
 
 
--
02:33 / 16.03.03
Chesed, if memory serves, didn't a few months ago you had a topic in this forum about how you didn't get the non-linear aspects of the Invisibles (neither did I at the time)? Obviously you've changed...
 
 
Aertho
03:38 / 16.03.03
I was unsure. And as I explained it, it's all very linear ...now. I was unsure about exactly how the non-linear sense of the fifth dimension and the linear aspects of the narrative were to resolved by the reader. I wanted other people to throw in little theories and how-they-saw-it understandings to help me along in my own understanding. I gave up waiting for people and kept diving deeper into the story until I got it.

Other people may not have my maniacal obsession with "getting it", and I want to help them appreciate the story.

I'm also the bastard that asked "what is a fiction suit?" last summer. (deadgrrl: a fiction suit is something for another thread... it has a little to do with this one, but I didn't want to overload ya )
 
 
grant
03:52 / 16.03.03
On John-A-Dreams: It's his jacket. The jacket is cool.

Everyone is an emanation of Billy Chang's experience in meta-space.

Including me (grant b.), and you.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
08:13 / 16.03.03
When did King Mob load the King of all Tears with Key 64?
 
 
rizla mission
13:14 / 16.03.03
I remember way back in the day there was a discussion of Billy Chang and somebody (grant?) did a web search on the name and came up with a variety of people of that name, who'd all done strange and exciting things in different parts of the world.

That was cool and mysterious and so forth.
 
 
PatrickMM
14:07 / 16.03.03
This might be stretching it a bit, but John is another avatar for Grant, because he created the universe, and is able to control it, move the players around, etc. Visually, John looks exactly like Gideon Stargrave when he's in the Beatles style military uniform, except decked out in white instead of the red. He has the except same hair style and glasses, and his white clothes look like the stereotypical God representation. John's just another Grant-fantasy persona.
 
 
The Natural Way
14:30 / 16.03.03
The Key 64 thing's interesting, isn't it? There doesn't appear to be a specific moment in the text where the King is dosed.... The King and the world it presides over are composed of a kind of super-text...the "alien language" of the comic itself. Mob's "bullet" implodes the text, exposing it for the narrative that it is. The more powerful, enduring "POP" of which the invissyverse is simply one among many emanations "devours its young" and the Archon doesn't stand a chance.

It's cool to note that 64 is the complete number of iterations of the I-Ching - the sum of universal manifestation. And it's a universe that is finally sunk.

And with that the Invisibles vanish into the supercontext of mind itself.
 
 
penitentvandal
15:23 / 16.03.03
Ummm...I always thought the King got dosed with Key 64 during the Westminster fight scene - but I rather suspect I may be somewhat wrong about that.

Failing that, one of the 2012 Invisibles could have done it when the King attacked the timesuit. Maybe.

What I want to know is, how does the King-of-all-Tears turn up in 2012 at all: isn't he one of the Archons Jack 'eats' in 3:2?

Or does Jack shit the Archons out at a later date?

No doubt Chesed (who I think should seriously consider instigating some kind of plan for global domination, given his Omega-level brain) can explain...
 
 
The Natural Way
15:41 / 16.03.03
Vandal - I had thought of that, but, well, its actually an attempt to dose the Moonchild, not the King-of-all-tears. However I'm aware that there's always room for the act to resonate on *another scale*, if you like.

But I think, really, the theory above's the most elegant one I've come to. The "dosing" is the King's (humanity's fears) original immersion within the text. Once the characters have glimpsed the zones outwith the game - have jumped off the page, so to speak - and penetrated the invissyverse's essential nature (a text), Mob simply employs a more potent, *universal* narrative to dissolve the thing.

The King's only a tiny, ickle story; pretty pathetic in comparison with the Super-context. The "King" of a little island surrounded by the super-continents of the collective imagination. Pop steamrollers over him.

"POP" is also the sound of the menbrane/the bubble/the womb bursting. And the condensed terrors leave fuck all but a soapy stain.
 
 
Aertho
16:22 / 16.03.03
Ummm...I always thought the King got dosed with Key 64 during the Westminster fight scene - but I rather suspect I may be somewhat wrong about that.

Failing that, one of the 2012 Invisibles could have done it when the King attacked the timesuit. Maybe.


I kinda thought that King Mob lied when he told the King of All Tears that they had dosed him with Key 64. By then, the Invisibles had figured out just how impotent the Archons really are, and KM could've only had to say that the King was dosed, and the King would've had to comply accordingly. But that's just a toy theory -doesn't really fit with anything. I'm gonna go with your second idea and say it was done off-panel

What I want to know is, how does the King-of-all-Tears turn up in 2012 at all: isn't he one of the Archons Jack 'eats' in 3:2?

This was one of the first and biggest hurdles I had to cross. I've already implied kinda that the fifth dimension is psychic in nature. Ken Wilbur might call it Spirit. The Archons are manifestations of that Spirit, and transcend fourth-dimensional(time) consciousness and perception. They don't operate within the universe -like John A Dreams or the Harlequinade, they are everpresent, and only step in and out of the universe in slices. So... while the King was "eaten" by Jack 3:2, it's like having only a finger eaten. The Archons are always out there.

You might come back and contend that the Archons seem to operate with temporal perception and anthropolical logic in Volume one, due to the King's "psychic battle" with Dane. The point of the Archons is this: they are condensations of human fears and manifestations of humanity's shadow archetype. They operate however we want them to, or believe them to... they reflect our behavior because they ARE our behavior -pushed out and facing us maliciously. Which is why I think KM might have only had to say that the King of All Tears was dosed.

Or does Jack shit the Archons out at a later date?

Nope. "Eating" is a metaphor. Full psychic digestion, no excrement. Total inclusion, Full transcension. Dane was intended by the Outer Church to become overwhelmed by the Archons(seeing as how they are the manifestion of all that we believe to be Evil), but Dane just accepted them, knowing his soul was tough enough to annihilate all the bad.

No doubt Chesed (who I think should seriously consider instigating some kind of plan for global domination, given his Omega-level brain) can explain...

I love you too.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
18:52 / 16.03.03
Chesed, I did wonder whether it was a cosmic bluff, that Key 64 is so powerful that you don't even need to take it to be affected , or whether the whole point of King Mob's work with Technoccult over the preceding 12 years was to have Key 64 permeate society (what about that rogue nanoswarm that Robin has the deflector thing for?) so that, as an aggregate of society's negative emotions the King-of-all-Tears automatically sucks it all in when preparing to attack in 2012.

And I don't think the King of all Tears is one of the Archons that attacks the Invisibles at the Abbey in 1999. As the emblem of the current aeon he would have to survive until 2012 anyway. Some people think that he goes straight from 1994 to 2012 to attack, so he wouldn't be around in 1999 anyway.
 
  

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