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Arrrrrrgh! Eco Tours & Uluru in Australia!

11:35 / 13.03.03

Right, so most people have heard of Uluru (white man called it Ayres Rock) and as such should be aware that it is a place of cultural and sacred significance for the Aboriginal people of the area.

So I'm heading back out to Oz from the UK for a month in October this year and I thought I might as well go and have a look, coz I haven't ever been and in doing so I thought I'd do an Eco Tour. Mostly because I thought that those kind of tours would be sensitive to the fragility of the natural environment and also respectful of the beliefs and wishes of the traditional owners.

Well, seems I was wrong. Either that or I am looking in the wrong places or at the wrong operators. I haven't looked up all of the operators yet, but at least 4 of the last websites I looked at that included Eco Tour in their web presence also metioned CLIMBING THE BLOODY ROCK!!!!! Now I seem to remember years ago hearing that this is not something the local people consider cool and they would prefer that people just admired it from afar. I think they have also allowed limited access to caves and other natural features at the base of the rock, but that's about it. Imagine if people wanted to abseil down the side of St Pauls Cathederal coz the view is pretty, the Christian Church would have a compelete fit!

So in trying to calm myself down out of a Righteous Rage can anyone confirm for me whether I have remembered that right? Am I going mad? Are these tour operators just blatently ignoring the wishes of the traditional owners for profit? Have tour operators and the traditional owners come to an agreement about this recently?

If I am going to go to someone else's sacred place I want to know what is cool and what is not. I do not want to be insulting and continue the ignorance and complete disregard to Aboriginal culture that so many of my countrymen have displayed in the past.

So if anyone could point me in the right direction that would be great.

I think I'll go have a cup of tea now.

12:02 / 13.03.03

I think you're right, it's considered very bad form to climb Uluru. I haven't got links or references to prove this, but I remember it from many a tv programme and anthropology class. There's a pretty big industry set around travellers to Uluru though (having read Bill Bryson's 'Down Under' which doesn't really deal with the religious significance of Uluru), and I'm not sure how many of them show any real respect for the beliefs of the Aboriginal Australians. It's a sacred spot, and I kind of get the impression that looking at it is bad enough, but climbing it is, in Christian-centric terms, sacrilegious. But that's all I know.

14:27 / 13.03.03

Actually angel, according to what I've read no Aboriginal person has EVER climbed Uluru. It's a major no-no. What's really disgusting is that there's actually metal handrails and fences leading up it to keep the tourists safe.

What do you expect though. Technically according to Australian law they weren't legally human until (I believe) 1966. The Aboriginal people have one of the oldest cultures in existance and they've been walked on and shat on ever since white people arrived.

The Return Of Rothkoid

14:40 / 13.03.03

Hmm. It's not OK to climb. Or, rather, it's a compromise that it's open, but they prefer you to not to. There's a walk here - you might be better just Greyhounding/AAT Kings-ing it out there and getting into some DIY action. NT government's page on the rock here.

Interesting article here.

22:33 / 13.03.03

yeah, they ask you nicely not to climb it, but they wont force you not to. i think they are just too nice and also sensible enough to realise that some dickheads will climb it anyway, and will probably hurt themselves trying.

regarding looking at it, thats fine, although many areas are no-photo zones. the aborigines actually run the visitors centre, the same tribe who have been owned by that part of the land for as far as anyone can show. part of their setup includes several areas designed to have a good view at certain times for taking pictures, and for viewing as the sun sets, etc.

if i was you, i would ignore the eco tours, go yourself with some friends, and pick up a guide if you really want one when you get there. you will probably pay slightly more when you add it all together, accomodation+travel+guide+all the rest, but i think you will end up having a better time.

also interesting is taht the entire ulluru resort is run by one company. there is a backpackers, a cheap hotel, a nice hotel, and some chalets, but they are just differently priced places to stay, not seperate resorts. the same is rue of teh restaurants; theuy have the full range, from cheap to flash, but they are all the same really.

not sure how that last bit helps, but i was fascinated by the idea.

22:53 / 13.03.03

Imagine if people wanted to abseil down the side of St Pauls Cathederal coz the view is pretty, the Christian Church would have a compelete fit!

Dunno about abseiling, but this BASE (parachute) jump in St Pauls almost landed the jumper in prison under some obscure blasphemy law.

I may be sounding hypercynical here, but I wouldn't expect most white Aussie's to give a shit about Aboriginal religion, apart from the few anthropologists who take their side. I could start banging on about Stonehenge and Pagans getting battered by cops for trying to do their thing there, but that's another story. Bottom line is, the way the powers that be see things, tourism = money, Aboriginals = pestiferous lil' monkeys.

The Return Of Rothkoid

23:23 / 13.03.03

Well, do Angel and I count as most, Bill? It may be different in the NT, but I think a lot of people are aware of the spiritual values of things like this, and try - hence the thread - not to fuck with people's beliefs.

I think the tourism agreement - given that the traditional owners do run the place, AFAIK - is the lesser of all evils in terms of having to deal with the NT government, who'll milk this thing for all it's worth.

Interesting and somewhat related story here: education of foreigners about what goes on would probably help too. Remember that lots of people still think that climbing the biggest rock in the world is a Cool Thing, and their demand is influencing tourism policies also.

23:53 / 13.03.03

Well, do Angel and I count as most, Bill?

No! Sometimes I'm not even sure you count as white, conceptually-speaking. I just mean the Gvt will do whatever pays. That's the whole point of a government, to shit on innocent people for money.

00:20 / 14.03.03

not entirely on topic, but the traditional owners is not actually the correctterm. the aboriginals who run the place, and most of them in oz as far as i am aware, see the land as owning them, or at least as not belonging to them. it may be their traditional home, but they are at best caretakers, keeping it nice for the world. (by world, i dont just mean people either)

The Return Of Rothkoid

01:05 / 14.03.03

I am aware of that philosophy. But it sounded better than "Original Australians", which is another term favoured here. I am posting from work, so compositional skills may not be quite up to par with the time I've got...

01:27 / 14.03.03

fairy nuff.

i wasnt sure if you knew.

02:11 / 14.03.03

'traditional owners' is widely used and supposed to connote a connection to land deeper, older and more valid than the aust government's sovereignty claims. it's used by a lot of indig mobs, not sure about around uluru...

this might be helpful.

02:12 / 14.03.03

also i do indeed live in sydney and am happy to be bought a beer.

02:21 / 14.03.03

i always saw the use of the word owners as a signifier that the 'western' system had won, and that to be considered the inhabitants of a place, you had to be the owners, or at least have their permission.

sorta so that the whitefolks would be able to relate to the concept.

The Return Of Rothkoid

02:23 / 14.03.03

Yeah - then I might finally get to meet you! I think m'self and Pepsi Max and ye should be able to show angel the good times ze richly deserves...

02:42 / 14.03.03

The Australian people just aren't taught to respect thE Aborigines and their culture. we are taught to think that they were cave men b4 white man came, and they are better off for our coming, we dont consider the fact they didnt have war b4 white man either.

The Return Of Rothkoid

02:47 / 14.03.03

Really? I can't say that's my experience, y'know. I have never heard the "cave man" reference at all. In fact, much of my frame of reference seems to be filled with how much the transportation/exploration did nothing but fuck things up and introduce diseases that previously hadn't been seen here.

But this is possibly for another thread...

09:34 / 14.03.03

The Australian people just aren't taught to respect thE Aborigines and their culture. we are taught to ...

I've not come across this 'cave man' reference, either, Taliesyn. Where are you in Oz and for whom in particular do you speak?

You seem to want to tar all Aussies with the same noxious ideological position, but what you call 'the Australian people' is far from being an homogeneous group; and as for what is being taught ... Have you at any time during the last decade actually *looked at* how Aboriginal perspectives are included in curriculum frameworks in primary schools, and what is being taught in Aboriginal Studies courses at secondary and tertiary level in each state?

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

09:45 / 14.03.03

Ah. Where's innercircle when you need 'im?

JOKE!

JOKE!

please don't kill me...

22:18 / 16.03.03

i always saw the use of the word owners as a signifier that the 'western' system had won

Well it might be nice to think we all lived in happy tolerant coexistence, by any reasonable standard the western system has 'won'. Therefore, if indig mobs want to get anywhere at all politically, they have to take on certain aspects of a westernised vocabulary - talking about sovereignty, ownership, etc. Suggesting they shouldn't use these words because they're tainted with Eurocentricity is i) politically naive ii) effectively a way of denying them access to an equally eurocentric public sphere and iii) based on the assumption that indigenous uses of these terminologies doesn't fundamentally transform their meanings.

Sorry for crankiness but I'm a bit rushed

23:01 / 16.03.03

Suggesting they shouldn't use these words because they're tainted with Eurocentricity is not what i was trying to do at all.

i was talking from the standpoint of someone who thinks that the aborigoinal way of looking at things is much better. just because you need to own the land under the laws of australia does not mean that you need to approach it in your dealings on that level. the aborigines at uluru can think of the land in any way they pleae, because they have dealt with the white man and stopped him being a problem to their taking care of the site.

sorta like an anarchistic collective buying an island; the world will still be the same, and they will have participated in a system that is not akin to theirs to create that space, but within that, once they have secured it, they are free to be as anarchic as they like.

also:

Suggesting they shouldn't use these words because they're tainted with Eurocentricity effectively a way of denying them access to an equally eurocentric public sphere

you are going to have to expand on that before i am convinced by it. in what way does using a different system of denotation bar your entry from a public sphere, unless you deny the existence of any other systems? that's like saying speaking french stops you being able to speak english, or, well, no its not, but its close enough.

and iii) based on the assumption that indigenous uses of these terminologies doesn't fundamentally transform their meanings.

well, no, i was assuming that that the terminology dictated the meaning... that's kinda the point. unless perhaps you want to expand on that too, and maybe make it a little clearer for me?

Jack Rock-a-Pops

11:57 / 17.03.03

Nah you want to go inside Uluru and see all the aliens and laser beams.

I don't want to touch the Aboriginal debate with a ten-foot pole, it's just too disgusting. As a New Zealander we hear the rough side of Australian jokes but it just ain't funny.

Good luck on your quest, I hear it's seriously the middle of nowhere.