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The Phoenix and the Qabala

 
 
Quireboy
20:31 / 11.03.03
This is a threadspore from NXM139, which I think deserves its own thread as it's been touched on by many people before.

I had a glance through Claremont's original Phoenix storyline - and it's clear Morrison is taking Jean down a path that Chris was exploring but probably got diverted from by Byrne and his editors.

Like Morrison Claremont (IMO) was drawing on the Qabala in his portrayal of Phoenix. In All New X-Men 108 when Jean enters the M'Kraan crystal and repairs it, he refers to her as "Tiphareth, child of the sun, child of life, the vision of the harmony of things." The energy lattice she forms to contain the neutron galaxy is "shaped like the mystic tree of life - with Xavier at its lofty crown and Colossus at its base. Each X-man has a place, each a purpose greater than himself or herself."

Tiphereth is the sixth principal of the Qabalistic Tree of Life, encompassing beauty and harmony. Tiphereth mediates between Kether (the crown, the pure spirit), and Malkuth (kingdom, earth), Tiphereth also reflects Kether (the first sephiroth of the tree of life). "That which is above is like that which is below, and that which is below, is like that which is above". Kether is also linked with the grade of Ipssissimus, the highest possible attainment of the consciousness. "I recognize every phenomenon as God, that is, as my soul."

The definition of Ipssissimus is that which is, "Wholly free from all limitations soever, existing in the nature of all things without discriminations of quantity or quality between them, she has identified being and not being, and becoming, action and non-action, and tendency to action, with all other triplicities, not distinguishing between them in respect of any conditions, or between any one thing and any other thing as to whether it is with or without conditions."

Now from the Invisibles' website The Bomb: "In the Mystical Qabalah, there is a model for existence called the "Tree of Life" (TOL). It has 10 spheres, leading from the world to the divine and back down again. Mysticism is to rise into the oneness of everything. Magick is to bring the connection with the divine intent back down into the world and manifest it. To do it, one ( an individual, a collective, etc.) must cross the Abyss.

The Abyss is represented on the TOL as an 'invisible' sphere just below the last three spheres, which are called the supernals. The supernals possess no duality. Communication with them does not come from knowledge of opposties. It comes from oneness. I digress. To reach the supernals, you must cross the Abyss. The Abyss is 'invisible' because, although it has a representation on the tree with proximity to the supernals, it is neither here nor there. It is everywhere and no where. Just as the supernals are. The thing about the Abyss is that it is the gateway to the unconscious. It is the gateway to the reverse side of the TOL. What is sometimes called Universe 'B'. The front of the TOL being Universe 'A'. The reverse side of the TOL represents the demonology (archons), what quabalistically is called the Quilpoth . It represents all of our supressed, unrefined, unacknowledged apsects of unconscious awareness. To successfully cross the Abyss, we must first resolve all that is unresolved within the Abyss.

Another attribution of the invisible sphere is the sphere of 'knowledge'. But it is knowledege without understanding. The understanding comes from communion with the Supernals. Without the 'divine' understanding of the knowledge, one has only 'false' knowledge. Magick without understanding is Colonel Friday. Knowledge as the godhead is a false god. It is communion with life that is the intent of our existnece. That is what we are programmed for.

Notice the Tree of Life contains the Tree of Knowledge. This is no accident. We must first have knowledge of who we are not, before we may become who we are. "It all follows a plan.."

There, in The Abyss, resides the gatekeeper, Choronzon. Choronzon is frequently referred to as the dispersion of false knowledge. The eater of the Ego. The Trickster. "Surprise! That wasn't you!" Until we integrate all that exists in both the Universes of A and B in a way that resolves our intentions into that which allows us to pass encumbered into the divine, we will never truly cross the Abyss. Hence, we will never truly realize the manifestation of what we truly are. "

Now in the origninal Claremont Phoenix storyline Matermind is Chorozon, Jean doesn't see through his lies until it is too late by then she has looked into the Abyss too long and becomes Dark Phoenix. In NXM Chorozon is Phantomex, only this time Jean sees through his deception early on. (Notice how she is attracted to both of these men - but how much more in control of the situation she is in NXM.) John Byrne recently revealed that Phoenix turning evil was the idea of the editors, so it's even possible that Claremont originally intended her to become a 'goddess'.

According to Morrison to achieve the 'grade' of ipssissimus (becoming Phoenix the goddess) you must undergo "an ordeal, the nature of which amounts to a personality-shattering meditation upon and encounter with the incoherent forces of 'the Dark Side' of the so-called Tree of Life, that is, all the negative states of consciousness available to us as human beings - fear, guilt, shame, hatred, loneliness, sickness, pain etc."

So perhaps we can see the breakdown of Jean's relationship with Scott and her possible disillusionment with Xavier's dream as the trials that lead her to realise that she is no longer Scott's wife or just an X-Man, which in turn leads her to realise her true self - as the Phoenix.
 
 
ciarconn
23:25 / 11.03.03
Perhaps a review of the mythological meaning of the Phoenix (and any other gnostic, alchemical, esoterical interpretations) would be in order
 
 
Aertho
01:07 / 12.03.03
Phoenixes are the animal associated with the sphere of Tiphereth.
Magical animals are associated with Geburah(Basilisk), Chesed(Unicorns) and Tiphereth. It makes sense that Phoenixes are the apropriate animal... beauty always remains and returns after destruction.

I'm more interested in the scene where Jean taps the other X-Men for help in fixing the crystal. Does anyone have the frame/page from Uncanny X-Men 108?


Reposted:
Okay, I've been down with Kabbalah for a while now, but your explanation probably helped a lot of people not that far yet.

Anyway... As far as your Kabbalistic analogy of the Phoenix storyline:
1.How do you know Claremont had all those Qaballic intentions during the late seventies? Where did you read it? Or did you happen across Claremont peppering his exposition with a cool-new-Jewish word? I'd be very interested in the furthering of the X-TOL if you could tell me besides Phoenix=Tiphereth, Xavier=Kether, and Colossus=Malkuth, who among that team corresponded to each of the other spheres? Wolverine=Geburah? Storm=Chesed?

2. While I agree that the Phoenix is becoming an analogy for "NO-LIMITS JEAN" (read: not Jean Grey-Summers) I feel that this current incarnation is only Jean's mutation tapping into her full limitless potential, not the Phoenix Force tapping into the body of Jean Grey. I could go on about her subconscious processing her power and developing an alternate consciousness if you'd like. The assumption that Jean is becoming the mutant-manifestation of Tiphereth seems limiting to me.

As the saying goes, the student must surpass the teacher... and I see Jean as actually getting to Kether. Xavier might be the one limited into worshipping the False Knowledge Godhead. The mere fact that she's ALSO a telekine and he's not might be all the difference. I could elaborate that as well.

3. The analogy of Choronzon in both stories seems accurate -but only to an extent. Like I said before, do you have CC on record as wanting to bring the Qabala in to the X-Men? Mastermind may have only been a big baddie. I see Fantomex in a completely different light. He challenges Xavier, and will continue to challenge him.

Keep talking -you're interesting.
 
 
perceval
09:46 / 12.03.03

Much of the Qabalic aspects were added by Claremont in the late 80s. A little background is in order, here...

Claremont was rather peeved over the Byrne Retcon, which attempted to remove the Phoenix history from Jean. Byrne's not the spiritial type, so he didn't get what Claremont was doing. Therefore, for all his talent, Byrne shouldn't touch anything that's spiritial or mystical, as he would later prove on his run on Wonder Woman, which would undo the brilliant George Perez revamp of the character. But that's another subject...

So, Claremont had to restore the original intent of his story, and restore the character of Jean Grey to the person he'd carefully developed. The opportunity quickly presented itself, with the publication of Classic X-Men, a series that would reprint the early Claremont run, but with added features written by Claremont. There would be back up stories that would expand on the characters and concepts, as well as extra scenes written into the original stories. It was basically Claremont doing a director's cut.

So, with Jean, his pet character, it meant making what was implicit in the original version explicit, spelling out who and what she was, and the spiritial concepts that went into her, and where he was going to take her. He went on to just take her up where he left off.

Not surprisingly, in the 90s, where editorial policies were to "dumb it down", all this thought and development disappeared for a while. But, Claremont returned, Harras left, and Morrison arrived, so, appropiately, the true character and concept rose from the ashes.

E
 
 
Quireboy
10:00 / 12.03.03
I haven't seen the Classic X-men reprints but there are references to Qabalic mythology in the original version, which is what I quoted from above.
 
 
glassonion
11:34 / 12.03.03
lets try this:
colossus - malkuth
nightcrawler - yesod
storm - netzach
cyclops - hod
wolverine - geburah
kitty - chesed [was kitty around then? i just like the idea of her phasing power equating mercy]
phoenix - tiphareth

now it gets tricky
xavier - kether [reckon charlie could happily sit in for all three supernals, otherwise how about]

'jean corrected' - binah
'scott corrected' - chokmah

although really this all says more about how much qobblers the people round these parts read rather than what the great fetish bear cc was up to at the time.

the next story's called murder in the mansion right? xorn, in the danger room, with the sun for a head. the massive karmic debt jean must take for the loss of that solar system she did for has hardly been paid back yet. and she's the phoenix, dies and born again [and again. but she never really died the first time did she?]xorn wants her dead because she needs it if she's to be the phoenix, and scott, xorn's only friend, won't ever be normal until he gets jean a bit better settled in his head.
 
 
Aertho
13:19 / 12.03.03
So.. Was "Dark Phoenix" one of these "spiritual concepts" Claremont wanted to tie to Jean Grey? Is her murder and annihilation of a planet and sun another of these "spiritual concepts"? Or is that just Byrne and them trying to amp the scary-factor?

And Kitty was only added to the X-Men after Jeanix's death. I think the X-men who may have been present during that time may have been either Beast, Banshee, or Angel. I think it's Angel that would most likely be the component for Chesed.
 
 
Quimper
13:35 / 12.03.03
I haven't read up on the Qabala in quite some time. But, I do remember all that jazz about the Tarot being the paths from one sphere to another. I think it's interesting that the path from Tiphereth to Kether is associated with the tarot The Last Judgment. Could Jean's final stage of evolution into the Phoenix be her possible judgment on mutantkind?

I agree with Chesed. I see Xavier as having knowledge, but knowledge without understanding. He has achieved Chokmah, but stopped there. Remember, his thoughts would have burned away in the "enlightenment" of the Phoenix. But Jean is still Tiphereth for now. She is out in the world trying to harmonize the network of X-Corporations. I may be butchering the understanding of the tree of life, but it seems to me that one who has achieved Tiphereth must go through Chesed and Geburah, mercy and severity, to go through the abyss and enter the supernals. I'm thinking "the abyss" entails her death and resurrection.

Mercy AND Severity...sound like anyone we know? Xorn, I'm looking in your direction....

So this is very interesting. Glassonion may be very, very right. Xorn, in the Danger Room, with the sun for a head. Murder at the Mansion. Xorn kills Jean. Jean comes back as the Phoenix.
 
 
ciarconn
14:02 / 12.03.03
OK, YOu made me go and do an archaeological dig on my very old comics zone. the image is not to clear, but I'll try to tell (the x men are shown in siluettes, only.)
There are only eight X Men on that missionStorm, Prof X, Banshee, Cyclops, Nightcrawler, Colossus, Wolverine and Phoenix.
They are laid in a pattern that does not correspond directly to the typical TOL
tree on the top row, one, another tree, and at the base, one.
(I'll try to guess who's who based on the shadows, top to bottom, left to right

Cyclops, Prof X, Nighcrawler

Phoenix

Storm Wolverine and banshee

Colossus at the base

which could be interpreted as:

Cyclops, Prof X, Nighcrawler
Binah, Keter, Hochmah

Phoenix
Tifferet (?)

Storm Wolverine, Banshee
Hod, Yesod, Netzach (?)

Colossus
Malkuth

I do not know how to post an image here, so, if someone, tells me, I can scan it... but get no high hopes, the image is not clear in the original
 
 
Quimper
15:00 / 12.03.03
What is the line in Imperial that Xorn says when he heals Scott, Jean and Beast? Something about "I was sent here for you" or "I was sent here to heal you." And then he touches Jean.

The journey through the Qabala is achieved through meditation. Xorn has spent his whole life in Room X meditating. Does he have an inherent understanding of the journey Jean must take to become the Phoenix? I'm starting to really think Xorn is going to "kill" Jean out of understanding and necessity. Maybe her secondary mutation will give her rebirth and kick in full force once it does.
 
 
Aertho
16:37 / 12.03.03
Aaargh!

It feels and may sound as if I'm fighting all of this. I'm not, just somebody's gotta play the Devil and test the ice.

First of all, there are different tarot cards corresponding with the inter-sphere routes of the TOL. You say The Judgement, me and Alan Moore say The High Priestess. Which actually makes MORE sense.

Second, how do we know Jean's gonna die? Again? Or again again? Although it would be interesting for Xorn to do what you speak of, death really isn't a toy or a ploy in NXM. I'm not placing money on that being the Murder at the Mansion.

As for the 108 silhouettes, if there aren't 10, I don't see the correlation. And even if the supernals are encompassed in Xavier-as-the-godhead(s), the rest of the X-Men don't really stand in for appropriate spheres -at least how I see it. Colossus doesn't seem very Malkuthy to me, either.

If I think of anything else to add, I'll be here...
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
17:26 / 12.03.03
Chesed Is her murder and annihilation of a planet and sun another of these "spiritual concepts"? Or is that just Byrne and them trying to amp the scary-factor?

Claremont says that he never mentions anything in his script about Dark Phoenix doing anything that would actually kill people. The planet of asparagus-headed people being something Byrne put in. Claremont didn't intend to kill Phoenix, they'd work something out, like giving her a psychic lobotomy and reduce her to a childlike mental state, with the Phoenix force perpetually threatening to burst free again whenever it was dramatically convenient. But because Byrne had made her a murderer the editor told Claremont that she had to pay the ultimate price to balance the scales.
 
 
Babooshka
17:29 / 12.03.03
And even if the supernals are encompassed in Xavier-as-the-godhead(s), the rest of the X-Men don't really stand in for appropriate spheres -at least how I see it. Colossus doesn't seem very Malkuthy to me, either. – Chesed

It does seem a bit forced, doesn't it? While it's an adventurous concept, the X-Men as the Sephiroth, it doesn't quite gel in the actuality. Is there any background information via links or research on Claremont's possible interest in the Qabalah, or any proof that he did indeed mean to bring a Qabalistic overlay to the X-Men?

"qobblers" – heh heh! Good one, glassonion!
 
 
Mr Tricks
17:30 / 12.03.03
I think the X-men who may have been present during that time may have been either Beast, Banshee, or Angel. I think it's Angel that would most likely be the component for Chesed.

Just 2 cents here but would Banshee be more apropiate for Chesed, what with his Mutant voice/Mercury Language effect?
 
 
ciarconn
17:33 / 12.03.03
Perhaps if we move the side rows one level up, it would sound more logical

Cyclops, Prof X, Nighcrawler
Binah, Keter, Hochmah

Phoenix
Daath (since it's inside the crystal thatshe faces the dark Phoenix for the first time)

Storm Wolverine, Banshee
Geburah, tipheret (!?)Hesed

Colossus
Yesod

I got the feeling the fit's not right
 
 
Quireboy
18:45 / 12.03.03
If you want to make up the 10, Corsair and Lliandra were also present inside the M'Kraan Crystal. (We see Jean take Corsair's hand.)
 
 
Aertho
19:28 / 12.03.03
Quickie Qabala:

Malkuth Reality the entire universe that we can sense with our bodies, everything else is mind and soul and spirit, either social or individual. • Zero Brain ...color brown

Yesod Imagination the first (and only!) ability that makes human beings special and different than other lifeforms. Realm of dream, access to unconsciousness, and religious belief. Individual Experience. • First Brain ...color indigo

Hod Reason Social Experience. Controlled faculty of reasoning, such that it generates thought through communication. Source of Truth •HOW: First Brain ...color orange

Netzach Emotion Social Experience. Wild faculty of emotion-ing, such that the only way to swim in it is to surrender to feeling unconditional love. Source of Love •WHY: First Brain ...color green

Tiphereth SuperSelf the true deep-seated and limitless sense of "self" that exists in harmony with social experiences. Home of Truth and Love. Individual Experience. • Second Brain ...color gold

Geburah Judgment Social Experience. Controlled faculty of emotion-ing, realm of sagacity. •HOW: Second Brain ...color red

Chesed The Give Social Experience. Wild faculty of reasoning, realm of magnanimity •WHY: Second Brain ...color blue

Daath Knowledge Individual product of the supernal process. Individual Experience. • Third Brain ...color ultraviolet

Binah Understanding Individual AND Social Experience. Controlled faculty of human/divine understanding. •HOW: Third Brain ...color dark gray

Chokmah Inspiration Individual AND Social Experience. Wild faculty of human/divine inspiration •WHY: Third Brain ...color light gray

Kether Unity Divine Experience. The ENTIRETY of the universe compressed into a single point, single moment, singularity. As Tao as toa gets. • Fourth Brain ...color white
 
 
Aertho
19:52 / 12.03.03
Given the 10! characters present, here's the correspondance as I would have it:

Colossus the young man and recruit: Malkuth

Storm the earth goddess: Netzach

Wolverine the murderer and hunter: Geburah

Cyclops the one-eyed leader: Hod

Nightcrawler the promiscuous demon priest: Yesod

Banshee, the elder X-Man, father of Theresa, and Interpol protector: Chesed

Corsair the maverick and suprise father: Chokmah

Lilandra the freedom fighter and rightful mother of an empire: Binah

Xavier the telepath extroardinaire: Kether
 
 
The Falcon
23:56 / 13.03.03
I'd go for Xavier, or perhaps, controversially, Magneto; father of the mutants for Chokmah. Corsair is a fairly peripheral figure for the mythos.

And Phoenix/Jean 'unity' as Kether.

Like Lilandra, though: def-o-nitely. Colossus farmer origins further his claim to Malkuth.
 
 
Aertho
01:08 / 14.03.03
Oh, I was just using the characters that were apparently involved with the M'Kraan Crystal rescue mission. That's if all of them were pulled inside, like whomever suggested.

In all honesty, any X-Man could've been used for any of the ten concepts. THAT's the most apropriate analogue. Mix ten souls in a bucket, pour evenly. But Claremont, who I blame for ghostwriting that stoopid Twelve disaster story, likes to attribute mootant-powers as a characters' defining spiritual characteristic.
 
 
perceval
06:36 / 14.03.03

I thought the Twelve story looked like pure Bob Harras.

E
 
 
Quireboy
08:14 / 14.03.03
Chesed - Llilandra and Corsair were pulled inside the Crystal.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
20:58 / 15.03.03
A quick aside before I delve into this thread in earnest: Claremont was involved with the Golden Dawn in the late 70's/early 80's when he was doing his work with the Phoenix. And it shows. Bunches. Claremont's prose may have devolved into self-parody of late (be he's getting better) but man when he was on his game back in the day, he was mind blowing.

Now onto the meat...
 
 
Aertho
22:57 / 15.03.03
Yes, please do give us some meat. I unfortunately became involved with the X-Men shortly after the X-Tinction Agenda, and by then, Claremont had already decided to leave. I was too young to register the difference in quality from his last few stories and the following angstridden bulltish, so I'm always surprised when people praise Claremont as the god-of-all-comics.
 
 
The Falcon
03:46 / 16.03.03
He was a large influence on Alan Moore, I've heard tell.
 
 
Aertho
03:52 / 16.03.03
For real? That just sounds silly. Perhaps true, but still.
 
 
perceval
10:11 / 16.03.03

Yeah, a HUGE influence on Moore. As Morrison put it in the intro to one of the NXM trades, Moore's early style was pure Claremont.

The Claremont/Byrne run on X-Men was groundbreaking, especially UXM 129-142, which would open the door for the great comics we'd see in the 80s. Simonson, Miller, Perez, Moore, Gaiman, Morrison... All picked up something from those issues. Sure, Claremont's classic X-Men run had it's ups and downs. Sixteen years is going to do that. But, when Claremont was in the groove, he was one of the best.

One project I'd liked to have seen that never happened due to Claremont being driven from the book by Bob Harras was a planned collaboration with Gaiman, an X-Men/Sandman crossover. It was to start with Jean and Death having tea at the Savoy.

E
 
 
The Natural Way
14:58 / 16.03.03
I think, Quire, while there might be something there, the Phoenix of the X-Men is closer to Horus. Y'know, a fiery, bloody bird god. Grant's Phoenix has its terrifying, destructive aspect - Rah-hoor-khuit - the moment of destruction and death and change; but I'm sure it will prove, in the end, to possess another face - Hoo-par-krat (or Harpocrates) - God of silence and illumination....

All the fallen elements get blast-furnaced in the alchemical athanor, but it's only the internal heat required, the fuel if you like, for the completion of the Great Work (tm). Charles and the Phoenix mull this one over in the Weapon X storyline.

The Horus thing, strikes me as the most elegant comparison. It fits all snugly with the themes and symbolism and Grant's obsessions. And, of course, it's a wonderful metaphor for the rise of mutantdom itself: a new consciousness blazing its way across the planet. A Child God....and that's the secret.
 
 
penitentvandal
15:12 / 16.03.03
Y'know, the assertion that Chris Claremont was involved with the Golden Dawn reminds me of the old Vic and Bob joke about Edam 'being associated with necromancy' and Brie being 'heavily implicated in that whole Waco thing...'

Y'know. Cheese.
 
 
Quireboy
16:40 / 16.03.03
Runce I can see where you're coming from - given that the arc after the Phoenix storyline (NXM150) involves the X-Men facing off against a threat to all intelligent life - maybe the Set to Jean's Horus.

I always thought that the writers missed a trick in not making Apocalpse (with all his links to Set) Jean's primary nemisis. Terrible concept and character in execution.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
17:03 / 17.03.03
Actually, Velvet, the Golden Dawn bit is from an interview with Claremont I read back when they were first launching the new X-Men title with him at the helm. I can't for the life of me remember where I read it though. It's not the first time I've heard mention of it though, so I figure there's at least a kernal of truth there.

And besides, it was the bloody late 70's. It was cool to be involved with Magick back then. Just because he's a fatbeard dosen't mean he can't pay his dues, dress up in funny clothes and babble about the Quaballah with a bunch of other fatbeards.

Now Claremont getting fisted by a woman dressed up like Storm in a trendy New York BDSM club is pure rumor.
 
 
Quireboy
07:49 / 25.03.03
I'm going to divert from my own topic a bit here in light of the imminent psychic catfight.

Someone on the X-Fan boards called Jean the X-men's Julianne Moore ... now they didn't mean it in this way but having just seen Far From Heaven I found that rather interesting. Maybe Marvel Girl was to Jean what Mrs Magnatech was to Cathy - they're both personas defined by those around them and their society (1960s/70s mutantkind or 1950s new England). However, Phoenix is Jean free of all boundaries - she's becoming a real goddess rather than the X-Men's domestic goddess. Perhaps that's what Scott can't handle as he can't bring himself to do what Cathy's husband did and deal with his sexuality.
 
  
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