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What is this Morrison/Moore feud?

 
  

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--
03:35 / 10.03.03
It seems I've seen quite a few mentions on this board of a fued of sorts between Moore and Morrison. Anyone care to fill me in on this? I don't actually read many comics, so far the only titles I've read are Sandman, The Invisibles, The Filth and Transmet, so I'm not really familiar with Moore's work (did he do "Swamp Thing", I think Gaiman mentioned that in a Sandman book I have)? Is Moore a magician like Morrison also? how did this "fued" even start?
 
 
glassonion
07:48 / 10.03.03
simply put, they've been nicking ideas off each other non-stop for about twenty years. both top grade magicians and anarchists. one of them is very hairy, the other is very bald. obviously too similar to be pals so they're rivals instead, stuck in dynamic creative tension for the good of the rest of us. i think the bad feeling [if there really is any and the whole thing isn't just a concoction of their respective fanboys] stems from a negative comment made by morrison about watchmen in 88 or something. moore responded by contacting mckean to express his 'disappointment' in mckean's involvement with arkham asylum, and they've been pretty cold in dealing with each other since.

it's infuriating, because their readers know how alike their work is and they could probably bring down bush if they worked together.

for the record, moore is the 'better' writer in terms of his obvious command of the formal structure of comic books, but morrison's my personal favourite of the two because he puts more fights, smartarse dialogue and pop culture references in.
 
 
Quantum
09:46 / 10.03.03
Well put glassonion. Neil Gaiman wrote "One day the good people of Northampton will rise up and burn Alan [Moore] as a warlock, and that will be a sad day for us all" (from the introduction to 'Smoke and Mirrors')
A friend of mine reckons Moore is one of the pre-eminent magicians in Britain, and I am inclined to agree. Except he's wrong about Arkham Asylum because it's great
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
14:05 / 10.03.03
There are no sides. Morrison and Moore are one in the superbollox...
 
 
penitentvandal
15:59 / 10.03.03
Exactly. Grant Morrison is just the sexy, silver age Earth 2 version of Moore, brought into our plane through the miracle of hypertime!
 
 
A
05:36 / 11.03.03
I think it's worth pointing out that while Morrison is never shy about complimenting Moore's work in interviews and suchlike, Moore seems to pretend that Morrison does not actually exist.
 
 
abstractgeek
18:56 / 11.03.03
moore also seems to practice a more traditional kaballahistic/thelemic magick, where morrison is more rock n roll chaos magick. not that it is any reason for a fued, just an observation
 
 
dlotemp
00:21 / 12.03.03
Sypha -

One log in the fire, possibly the most significant one, was tossed by Morrison when he wrote an essay in the British magazine Speakeasy that delineated how the novel SUPERFOLKS by American author Robert Mayer presaged Alan Moore's 80s work, with the implication that swiping might have occurred. If you perform a Google search for SUPERFOLKS and Robert Mayer, you should find a sight that summarizes the novel written in 1978 and how it parallels Moore's work on the comic Miracleman.

I've never read the essay but some of the main comparisons that Morrison notes are that SUPERFOLKS and the comic MIRACLEMAN both open with the same quote from Nietzche, both deal with the return of a superhero out of domestic retirement, and both have a villain who is a homage to the hero Captain Marvel, Jr. who is defeated in the same manner. The novel and Moore's SUPERMAN story, "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow" both have an evil imp from the 5th dimension and end in thematically similiar ways. Also, the novel and the WATCHMEN have an elaborate government conspiracy designed to undermine the hero. Having just finished SUPERFOLKS, like 2 days ago, I can confirm the similiarites.

Moore was miffed at Morrison's seeming accussations and the pair have been looking leery at each other ever since.

I don't know if Moore has read SUPERFOLKS but I bet he has based on the many similar tropes but, POV, I don't think there is plagarism or stealing. Moore's work is written in a different style and for different purposes. Who was it that said the all poets are thieves? I bet Moore received many ideas from the novel but so what. That's like accusing Morrison of unoriginality for using British TV shows as farms for his characters.

anyway, that's what I know about the feud.

PS - SUPERFOLKS has been out of print since the 70s but you might find a copy in a good library.
 
 
dlotemp
00:23 / 12.03.03
The SUPERFOLKS site is at this address.

http://www.angelfire.com/mn/blaklion/superfolks.html
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
08:51 / 12.03.03
quality posts r us!
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
00:43 / 13.03.03
I've always liked the idea of Moore and Morrison having a full-on magickal duel.
 
 
arcboi
09:02 / 13.03.03
Does anyone have details about which issue of Speakeasy this article was in? I'm aware of this story being raised in the past, but I can't recall GM being directly involved.

Also, considering Zenith borrowed a fair few ideas from Marvel/Miracleman it does seem to be a strange argument for GM to make.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:24 / 13.03.03
Half the characters in the Invisibles were a complete rip of Maxwell the Magic Cat also.
 
 
thedude
20:06 / 14.03.03
I always had the impression that Moore only got into magick comparatively recently, in the last few years, as a result of writing From Hell. I don't think this makes him inferior in any way to Morrison, but it was just a passing thought.
 
 
Seth
21:48 / 14.03.03
Maybe they should collaborate on a Moore VS Morrison one-shot. Actually, a video game would be even better!
 
 
Dave Philpott
00:41 / 16.03.03
From The Comics Journal #176, April 1995:

Nick Hasted: Is the whole Vertigo line based on Alan Moore as the Godhead of adult comics?

Grant Morrison: Aah, no. I think that's a false idea put about by Alan himself. Really, what happened was that they got hold of somebody who was good at what he did, then they realized there were more. Actually, at one point there was a sense that we were all marching into the future together waving the same flag, then I realized that we weren't, which is probably why I criticized Alan quite a lot, which is why he doesn't speak to me anymore. But I really felt the need to get out from under his shadow, because it had become so oppressive, and we were all being expected to do as he did.

*****

GM also gives a quick nutshell-opinion on Miracleman vs. Watchmen:

Hasted: Something that seemed to happen to Alan Moore after "Watchmen" was that he became embarrassed about what he liked when he was young. Obviously that hasn't happened to you.

Morrison: No, I still love that stuff, and I still understand why I loved it then. I don't know if that makes me a better person, that's just my particular quirk. But despite the fact that Alan Moore was embarrassed about it, he still did the "Miracleman" stuff which I really enjoyed, and I thought was better than "Watchmen", because it was organic and sprawling and ridiculous, whereas "Watchmen" was this really tight-arsed, anal retentive way of looking at things.
 
 
penitentvandal
15:52 / 16.03.03
trumanbuckley's point is interesting indeed, especially if we consider the theory that the events of Moore's recent Promethea-Cabala storyline amount to Moore's 'coming out' as an ipsi - ipso - that stupid word to describe incredibly powerful magi which I can never be arsed to fucking spell. Because it means, you see, that either Moore is actually shit hot to the max at the old magickal jiggery-pokery, or he's lying about either (a) his abilities or (b) when he got started, or the Promethea storyline does not necessarily amount to a declaration of hippopotamus-ness. Allow me to explain:

In various interviews with more mainstream publications, e.g. the Guardian, the Big Issue, and the Idler for example, Moore has basically asserted that he became a magician almost by accident after writing some lines about the existence or non-existence of gods in one panel of From Hell in around 1995. This led Moore off on a whirlwind tour of magick, mostly in the Enochian/Thelemic/Golden Dawn mode, which resulted in him doing all sorts of cool magickal rituals as performance pieces, acquiring a prodgious collection of 'significant' jewellery, holding forth upon John Dee and Aleister Crowley for channel 4 during that absolutely shit 'Masters of Darkness' series they did, and amassing a library of cool, leather-bound occult texts the likes of which one rarely sees outside of the magick box in Buffy the Vampire Slayer. All this in eight years, while at the same time creating America's Best Comics - quite a feat.

Now, if we assume that the culmination of this was his achieving ipsidooda status (which technically he would have to have done, I'm guessing, sometime in 2001, given the schedule he's on writing Promethea and the other ABC stuff), this means that Moore has basically reached the highest grade of magick recognised by the western initiating orders in less than a decade, while holding down a job as a funnybook writer and underground superstar. By comparison, Morrison claims to have undergone his own abbys-crossing transformation only after 20 years of magickal practice - which means he got started a lot sooner than AM.

Now, granted, Morrison is kinda lazy and foppish, and prefers to experiment with a more varied magickal diet than Moore, so it's possible that, with dedication and perseverance, Moore could have became an ipsissisimus(?) in the seven years or so between 1995 and 2002. But as I recall it took even Crowley a long time to reach that level, and arguably Dee never even got there, so we'd have to assume that Moore is actually a better magician than Crowley or Dee. And you could make a case for that - Moore's certainly been smart enough to avoid any Cefalu-type scenarios, but then again he hasn't invented his own magickal order, either (and technically Crowley could be said to have created not just one but two orders, given that he ghost-wrote most of Gerald Gardner's wicca stuff).

Or, he could have been lying about when he got started. I'm inclined to place more credence in this theory - there's been a lot of shamanic/magickal stuff in Moore's work long before 1995 - if you don't believe me, check out the LSD-trip sequence in V for Vendetta, or Jim Gordon's crossing of the Abbys in The Killing Joke. I don't know what reasons Moore would have for making a story like this up - perhaps he finds the subject still a little embarssing to talk about, perhaps (like a lot of magicians) he just enjoys throwing the mundanes a red herring - but doing so seems more likely than Moore reaching kether-level status in less than a decade.

Or Moore may be lying about his abilities - a hypothesis which I, not being sufficiently advanced myself, can't really test, I suppose.

Or - and this is just possible - maybe Moore never actually said he was an ipsissimus, and we're reading too much into his last Promethea storyline.

Y'know. I mean it is just possible that we may be doing that.
 
 
LDones
18:22 / 16.03.03
From a relative layman's perspective, I believe Moore when he says he didn't really magically initiate himself until writing From Hell, if only because the overall feel and "worldview" of his body of work prior to that is much more - closed, I think is the word. Certainly more negative (I don't look at From Hell as a negative tale, in the end, despite all the misery and mutilation that occurs - There's a directly transcendent feel to it).

I've never actually encountered Moore making a statement about his own magical abilities, except in a self-effacing manner. It's very possible that he was simply writing about the Ipsissimus experience as opposed to documenting that he had undergone or achieved it. THen again, impatience reigns these days, so perhaps he's just inferred that he's undergone his own trip through the Abyss this early in his magical career (though that doesn't seem likely to me).

It certainly does seem like his international profile as a magician is becoming more pronounced, however. Which is gravely odd, in a nice way.
 
 
molotovwaiting
11:15 / 17.03.03
Who was it that said the all poets are thieves?

TS eliot once wrote
" the immature poet imitates, the mature poet plagarises"
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
15:00 / 17.03.03
ivry smert cunt thair ivir wiz sez that.
 
 
Jack Fear
15:06 / 17.03.03
...and Bono, too.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
15:52 / 17.03.03
I'd assumed the Elaborate Lad of Moore's Supreme had to do with Grant, as well.

My understanding of this situation is based on instinct more than any particular familiarity with subcultural tropes, but it seems to me that Moore & Morrison, whether you see them as a pair of artists or of Gandalfs, need to maintain a polar relationship to one another. They couldn't be pals without one dominating one another -- Random Mythic Comparison: Stephen Strange & Baron Mordo -- or inviting interference from some other direction -- RMC: Knodge? As Old Skool 'Lithers ought to know, successful cooperation invites opportunistic predators. With them keeping a distance, though, and thanks to the nature of the medium, their readers or acolytes are free to study at both their feet as it were without getting mixed up with clannish competition or cultish isolation. It's pretty remarkable, actually.

In other words, I'm inclined to believe that there is nothing personal
in the distance they maintain, and the distance is, in fact, a service to us. But, y'know, that's just me gassing.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
16:06 / 17.03.03
Reflect:
Maybe they should collaborate on a Moore VS Morrison one-shot. Actually, a video game would be even better!

I believe someone once tried to send a query to that effect using this site but who knows whether the message was recieved and what they thought of it. It's not like there's no precedent for it; even in Random Mythic Comparison land, polar heroes sometimes team up. I mean, if Allen Quatermain can team up with Captain Nemo, and Adolf Hitler can be haunted by John Lennon's ghost, these two could give us a measly one-off tpb, right? With art by Johne Byrne & Frank Miller.

A video game would be wack, though some kind of MUD might yield entertaining dividends.
 
 
grant
17:00 / 17.03.03
I once wrote half a comic script that was a wrestling match between the two of them.

i wonder if that survived the disk crash somehow....
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
17:38 / 17.03.03
Bendis would write it really well.
 
 
The Natural Way
10:05 / 18.03.03
Vandal - I think your too suspicious. Moore's a grown up. I'm not too sure he cares about impressing you with his magic powers. Just read the work - the insights are there. And that's the measure.

Anyway....I'm pretty sure Morrison didn't really get on the magic train until the Invisibles. He used to talk about Chaos, sure, but (and I'm pretty sure this is straight from the odd interview) it was mostly window-dressing to give his stories a patina of "Woooah!". And, anyway, the *dates* they give are just rough points of coalesence - the moments when it all came together. They'd both been INTERESTED in magic for years n years, and probably had some experience of working with it, before they actually put their beards on.

Anyway, its not the quantity that counts - it's the QUALITY.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
10:44 / 18.03.03
It's very possible that he was simply writing about the Ipsissimus experience as opposed to documenting that he had undergone or achieved it.

...but if he were claiming to be an 'Ippsisimus' in the pages of Promethea, why should this be accepted any differently than how that guy Joe's similar claims were accepted in the magick forum a few months ago. We know as little about the personal and magickal development of Alan Moore as we did about Joe.

I'm reading the Promethea trades, so perhaps the later issues I haven't read are more overt, but surely any armchair student of Quabbala with an imaginative and inquiring mind could work these themes into fiction in the way that Moore does. I'm obviously not suggesting that Moore isn't a practising magician with a very innovative approach to the western mystery tradition, and an incredible talent for writing about it in fiction - but these claims coming out of nowhere that Moore is "this centuries pre-eminent magician" are just mad.

How can you possibly come to that conclusion from reading the mans fiction. A persons ability to write about magick in clear and imaginative terms, and ability to secure a print deal, do not necessarily equate with their level of development as a magician. Again, I should state that I'm in not in any way doubting Alan Moore's ability as a magician, just asserting that it's impossible for any of us to make such a qualitative judgement unless you happen to have been involved with him personally in magickal work, and have the experience to make that call.

On the Ipssisimus thing, Grant Morrison may well have been practising for 20 years and Alan Moore for half that time, but Morrison is hardly going to attain the degree of Ipssisimus if he isn't working specifically within the curriculum of the A.'.A.'. of which that grade is the highest attainable degree. I'm not sure that the 'grades' used by psuedo-masonic orders like the A.'.A.'. or the Golden Dawn should really be thought of as 'merit badges' used to signify magickal attainment in a wider sense. There are probably folks working in places you've never heard of who have never even heard of the term 'Ipsissimus' but deal on a day-to-day basis with Powers that would leave any high grade ceremonial western trad magician feeling way out of their depth.
 
 
The Natural Way
11:08 / 18.03.03
Grant HASN'T been practising (at least not REGULARLY) for 20 years, though. I don't know, it's not something I can prove, but it's just the feel...the tone you get from Moore's stuff - just strikes me as inspirational in quality. Some of the things he's hit on - some of the ideas and a great deal of the atmosphere - just seem, well, revelatory. Stuff you only really get to, or can only really talk about with conviction, after having done the work on yourself. It just doesn't have that "I read it in a book once" vibe.

Just feels like real transmissions to me. The thing you do after the the lightning bolt - when you can't keep it confined to yr head.

I could go into detail, but I'm fighting a massive warpig and its tusks are bristling.

But..whatever...
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:41 / 18.03.03
I do agree with you on all of your points. Alan Moore's insights into magick, expressed in Promethea, do have the glow of inspiration about them, and I'd even go as far to sit him beside Mr Blake if I were in charge of seating at the british visionary tradition tea party. Moore does put a slant on things that you can't get from book reading, and I don't doubt his ability and experience in any sense.

I just wanted to question some of the broad assertions that were being made on this thread about the comparative magickal ability of complete strangers, and raise the point about the term 'Ipssisimus' being specific to one tradition.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
15:08 / 18.03.03
Morrison HAS been practicing magic for over twenty years. At least that's what he told me when we spoke and I've read interviews from long ago where he confirms this.

I can see where you're coming from Runce but I think the point you're making about the Invisibles is that this was the point when GM realised that what he had been doing with comics was in fact, magic. He then proceeded to merge his magical nous with his comic creating skills.

He refers to magic as window dressing in the interview I did with him and the impression I got 'live' was that this meant, previous to the Invisibles, he simply hadn't integrated his magical thoughts with the narrative of the text. It was pasted on as opposed to mixed in with the ingredients. With the Invisibles, GM realised that the actual process of creating comics, of manipulating images and words to create sensations, was a magical system; and it was the system he was most comfortable with.

GM is much more vocal about the link between comics and magic than Moore. Basically, he's a contemporary magician, while Moore is a traditionalist.

As has been stated already in this thread and billions of times before.
 
 
The Falcon
16:31 / 18.03.03
I think he pretty much said so in his Disinfo special too; that he'd learned it from reading R.A. Wilson. Or maybe that was contacting alien intelligences...

Is there a difference?
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
17:40 / 18.03.03
More on Moore's speedy magickal progression (threadrot?), not that I'm representing him in any way.

First, I don't think it's a great idea to read too much into fiction. A) Clearly, ABC is a part of his magickal work and B) maybe he's laying groundwork for something.

Second, I think a lot of the 100-level courseload is concerned with basic psychology and language that most humans in developed countries can absorb through the culture these days. I mean, I mastered most of the breath control and visualization exercizes in karate when I was twelve, and I learned to work with mythic forms talking to Thor and the Silver Spaceknight, not to mention Han Solo. The pop-psych language we use to discuss our relationships these days also has a very magickal bent, so just having -- or being -- a moody girlfriend can constitute a degree of magickal training. Most of the traditional approaches come from a different time with a different pattern of information absorbtion for the individual, so their ideas about how long this should all take don't necessarily apply to us. Moore, at 40, already knew buttloads of stuff that, say, Crowley had to master as a young man before he could even approach an ipssissimus perspective.
 
 
glassonion
09:15 / 19.03.03
gang, y'gotta keep up. moore never said it in promethea [the ipsissimus issue there could be written from the point of view of a strong acid trip, dress it up w. a couple of g.d books and bosh! cool comics to fool us all.] he said it in eddie campbell's egomania 2, and quite explicitly. as for moore not starting up his own magic order, incorrect, its called the moon and serpent grand egyptian theatre of marvels. velvet vanman: 'the mundanes'? don't talk like that, its just nasty. morrison wins again because flex mentallo is actually a magical servitor, designed to make superhero comics fun and pay gm's rent for ever, and look! that's what its done, but moore's comics, perhaps promethea aside, are just comics about magic. if he has tried to psybercise his comics lately its definitely only since baldy has.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
11:46 / 19.03.03
yeth, yeth, yeth, glath onion.

'Servitor' - yeah......
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
10:05 / 06.12.05
alan moore is such a cheating fuck!

will read superfolks tonight and report back.
 
  

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