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This mall is screwed

 
 
Mazarine
14:54 / 05.03.03
Man arrested for Peace shirt

Normally that would just be cause for anger and sadness, but check out his job title: the director of the Albany Office of the state Commission on Judicial Conduct. There's protests going in about seven minutes, and I'm stuck at work, damn it.

(If this doesn't turn out to be switchboard worthy, feel free to move it to the Conversation.)
 
 
sleazenation
15:31 / 05.03.03
Sadly its actually good to hear this case will be put to trial. At the moment Malls are legally considered private property and therefore it is entirely legal that the owners or persons acting on their behalf could ask you to leave for engage in in any kind of political protest or even expressing opinions not shared or considered unpaletable by the owners.
 
 
Nematode
15:48 / 05.03.03
Whatever next.......
 
 
cusm
18:52 / 05.03.03
An interesting point, as malls indeed are private property, being an indoor structure. One thinks of them as a public place because one can walk between stores, but all of those stores are inside a privately owned building. The mall itsels is really a store, and is treated as such legally. So while vile, a ruling against the mall would set a precident against the rights of private property owners and merchents to decide on who they will allow into their place of business.
 
 
Mazarine
20:19 / 05.03.03
One of my co-workers actually sent me a link to a prescedent setting case in New York that took place prior to this. I can't quote it because I forgot to forward it to my home e-mail, but I will tomorrow.

He did have the T-shirt made in the mall. I wonder if that changes anything. In a twist that strikes me as slightly misguided, people protested by putting on peace shirts and then coming in and... um... shopping. "Ha! Patronage! How d'you like THEM apples?!"
 
 
William Sack
20:30 / 05.03.03
One of my co-workers actually sent me a link to a prescedent setting case in New York that took place prior to this. I can't quote it because I forgot to forward it to my home e-mail, but I will tomorrow

Please do post it, I'd be very interested. Am I right in thinking that jury trial wouldn't be an option for this case?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:31 / 05.03.03
Hang on a minute. My house is private property- If someone turned up wearing (say) a Skrewdriver T-shirt, I think I'd be within my rights to tell them to fuck off, and possibly (if there were bigger people than me visiting the house at the time) do this with the threat of violence. Could/would I get them arrested?
 
 
Mazarine
01:24 / 06.03.03
If they refused to leave, yes, you probably could. Hell, in some parts of the U.S. you could probably shoot 'em.
 
 
bjacques
01:32 / 06.03.03
With malls, all you can really do is try for a boycott. Negatively influencing revenue is the only protest businesses understand (or fear).
 
 
Mazarine
01:57 / 06.03.03
That shouldn't be tricky. Our area is fraught with malls, and the one in question doesn't even have a goddamned bookstore. I ask you.
A bit on the story from the local paper's website.
 
 
grant
12:57 / 06.03.03
The mall is trying to back down.

Excerpt:
"We just want to know what the policy is and why it's being randomly enforced," said Erin O'Brien, an organizer of the noontime rally. "It's only the people in the recent months who have anti-war or peace T-shirts that are being asked to leave the mall."

A mall spokeswoman did not return repeated calls for comment.

Downs' son, Roger, said dropping the charge would not rectify the arrest. "My father feels there's more to this. Crossgates hasn't examined what was wrong here," he said. "I think he'd like an apology."

 
 
cusm
19:44 / 06.03.03
I'll have to note on the private property issue, "private property: home" and "private property: place of commerce" really need to be treated as two seperate animals. The whole idea of tresspassing charges on a place open to the public is rediculous.

On the bright side, even though the charges are dropped, the man arrested can still file a civil suit against the mall for the way they treated him. That's justice in America.
 
 
Mazarine
02:19 / 07.03.03
And it's made the Daily Show, good gracious me.

Here's the end-bit from the case I was referring to earlier, (too long to post the whole thing), I'm going to see if my co-worker still has the URL someplace.

A chunk from the beginning regarding the scope:

Although the United States Supreme Court had held that U.S. Const. amend. I did not permit such distribution, the protestors claimed a free speech violation under N.Y. Const. art. I, ยง 8.

So this isn't necessarily a national prescedent, but a state one.

Regarding the mall as private property issue:

The large Mall, which was previously described in detail, can be considered to perform the functional equivalent of a town center and the free flow and dissemination of all ideas would be severely curtailed if plaintiffs were denied access to it. The Mall is thoroughly clothed in the attributes of public or quasi-public property and it may not prohibit persons who wish to disseminate communications by the use of peaceful nonviolent lawful methods.
The Mall encourages people from the community to linger, browse and
congregate in its public areas and it is designed to and does provide
numerous opportunities for public gatherings and events (see Justice
Powell's concurrence in PruneYard Shopping Center v Robins, 447 U.S. 74, 96, supra).


So private, yes, but since we don't have an agora per se, the people deciding the case felt that the mall is not entirely private. Here they discuss the free speech versus private property aspect:

The intrusion by plaintiffs on the right to privacy of the Mall and its tenants is minimal compared to plaintiffs' right to free speech. And a State, in the exercise of its police power, may adopt reasonable
restrictions on private property so long as the restrictions [***15] do not amount to a taking without just compensation or contravene any other Federal constitutional provision.

However, in the PruneYard case (supra), the court permitted the shopping center to "restrict expressive activity by adopting time, place, and manner regulations that will minimize any interference with its commercial [**349] functions" (447 U.S. 74, 83, supra).


Eep. Sorry about the long quoting. Since the Mall has dropped the charges, as Grant mentioned, it's going to come down to a civil case rather than criminal, like cusm said. Can civil prescedent impact a future criminal proceeding?
 
 
grant
14:05 / 12.03.03
Oh, the mall is evil.

.....

Communique - Peace t-shirt security guard fired - 10.03.2003


Timesunion.com - The security officer at Crossgates Mall who signed a trespassing complaint against a war protester was fired Friday.
Robert Williams, who has worked in security at the mall for more than nine years, said he signed the complaint on the orders of his boss, assistant director of security Fred Tallman. Those orders came after Tallman told the Guilderland police officer working the case that he (Tallman) was too busy to come to the police station and that Williams represented the company and should sign.
"I just followed directions of management of that mall to the letter," Williams said Friday evening. "And I get fired for doing my job."

 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
17:00 / 12.03.03
I hope the Peace t-shirt guy can give him a hand suing the mall for wrongful dismissal...
 
 
Mazarine
17:01 / 12.03.03
Evil on a stick. One of my coworkers saw a security guard snatch a sign saying "Peace on Earth" out of a little highschool girl's hands, rip it up in front of her, and say "Not at this mall!" Wonder if they'll fire him next.
 
 
cusm
18:05 / 14.03.03
Of course not. That one actually deserves a dismissal.
 
  
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